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Old 01-26-2008, 08:46 AM #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by $h@key J0nEZ View Post
How is a polluted environment cheaper than alternative energy? That is thinking inside the box. Look at it long term for a solution. With China and India's current growth rates the current supply of petroleum in the world can not be sustained without outrageous costs and hazardous environmental effects. Drilling in the U.S. will not help the environment at all only add to the pollution and long term effects of Global Environmental Destabilization.
Yeah, what you say may or may not be true, but none of it negates that fact that oil is cheaper NOW and so it will continue to be used until it becomes more expensive than alternative sources. That's the reality of the situation.
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If you disagree with my 95% statement prove it. I take it you haven't been to school lately. Ask any scientist in any school. Prove that it is not accurate.
You made the statement, you prove that it's accurate.
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Old 01-26-2008, 08:50 AM #65
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Originally Posted by scumquat1 View Post
Yeah, what you say may or may not be true, but none of it negates that fact that oil is cheaper NOW and so it will continue to be used until it becomes more expensive than alternative sources. That's the reality of the situation.
You made the statement, you prove that it's accurate.
Ok so you say it may or may not be true. Well watch this video. It might suprise you. I think this is all the proof anyone should need.

http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/...te-change.html
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Old 01-26-2008, 08:57 AM #66
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I've seen that video. In fact, there's a thread on it already. The man's logic sucks. End of story.

By the way, I'm still waiting for proof on your statement about 95% of scientists agreeing about climate change. I won't hold my breath.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:04 AM #67
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Originally Posted by scumquat1 View Post
I've seen that video. In fact, there's a thread on it already. The man's logic sucks. End of story.

I won't hold my breath.
Care to explain how his logic sux?
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:58 AM #68
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Care to explain how his logic sux?
No I don't. Find the other thread. It's all explained there.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:48 PM #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by $h@key J0nEZ View Post
I think your forgetting a little matter of global warming/pollution. Why would we want to keep using oil when the technology is there to make quieter and safer pollution free cars that are not only good for the environment but get our country out from the control of Saudi Arabia. This isn't todays new. Climate change is for real. Are you going to argue with 95% of the worlds scientists on Climate Change? Oil got us into this mess. New and smart thinking will get us out and also stimulate new growth and jobs in a recessive economy with a dying automotive industry.


Yes I will argue with 95% of the world's scientists.

Consider: there are about 300,000,000 people in the United States. And the average household has about 2 cars. Roughly, there's about 250 million registered vehicles in the United States. But that's probably an esitimate including all types of vehicles.

Now lets say everyone every vehicle currently on the road will be running for the next 20 years. So even if we converted all cars to this magical green stuff, there would still be 250million vehicles that run off oil on this earth, not including the world.

Whats your plan to keep oil prices down in the present; right now; 4 years or 10 years from now. Do you realize the US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world? The highest in the world, that means nothing to you but it does for every company trying to make a alternative energy. It essentially takes away capital, the blood and life of a company.

How about you take a economic look at it; essentially a macroeconomic view. Its not a very strong one sir, I've followed green stocks for the last 5 years they are companies based on promises and results years from now and most economists would agree.

I'm for creating a different solutions to our energy problems, but we need to first reduce oil prices with domestic solutions, then proceed onward.
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Old 01-27-2008, 05:30 PM #70
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Hydrogen fuel cells are the future. I consider myself a motorhead and love the internal combustion engine. However it is a dated and very inefficient design. Hydrogen is easy to make, easy to transport and is clean.
According to the author of the book, a world renowned engineer, hydrogen fuel cell cars will never exist on a large scale. Hydrogen isn't easy to make. According to him you'd use more energy to produce the hydrogen then the amount of energy you'd get out of the reaction.

I still haven't really heard anyone give me a solid reason why ethanol isn't a viable solution.

Brazil imports little to no oil, do you guys realize this? Because its governmental required that all new cars on the road are flex fueled. So how if this is working in Brazil won't it work in the U.S.?
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Old 01-27-2008, 05:43 PM #71
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Brazil =/= U.S.
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Old 01-27-2008, 06:23 PM #72
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Brazil imports little to no oil, do you guys realize this? Because its governmental required that all new cars on the road are flex fueled. So how if this is working in Brazil won't it work in the U.S.?
Sugar cane yields a higher energy output than corn. Also Brazil is tapping into their oil reserves off of their coast which will become pure profit for them, why can't we tap into ours?
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Old 01-27-2008, 06:35 PM #73
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I still haven't really heard anyone give me a solid reason why ethanol isn't a viable solution.
It takes about 1 gallon of fuel to produce 1.3 gallons of ethanol. Even if we double the efficiency of ethanol production, it's extremely inefficient to use.

Also, you're adding a huge demand for corn, which creates a shortage of both farmland, as well as other goods produced on that land. We cannot supply the amount of ethanol neccessary and still provide enough agricultural goods to fulfill demand.

Those are the two big problems with ethanol.
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Old 01-27-2008, 06:38 PM #74
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It takes about 1 gallon of fuel to produce 1.3 gallons of ethanol. Even if we double the efficiency of ethanol production, it's extremely inefficient to use.

Also, you're adding a huge demand for corn, which creates a shortage of both farmland, as well as other goods produced on that land. We cannot supply the amount of ethanol neccessary and still provide enough agricultural goods to fulfill demand.

Those are the two big problems with ethanol.
That and ethanol's financial viability is in part due to agricultural subsidies which reduce corn prices.
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Old 01-27-2008, 08:59 PM #75
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I'm in favor of nuclear power, it just seems like something we have that we aren't quite using to its full extent. This guys plan wouldn't completely work. I'm sure not all gasoline reliant vehicles would only require 500 dollars worth of parts. Other things run off gas besides just cars.
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Old 01-27-2008, 10:10 PM #76
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That and ethanol's financial viability is in part due to agricultural subsidies which reduce corn prices.
Economics behind subsidies too. Last thing we want is price wars with our food rops.
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Old 01-27-2008, 10:39 PM #77
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I'm in favor of nuclear power, it just seems like something we have that we aren't quite using to its full extent. This guys plan wouldn't completely work. I'm sure not all gasoline reliant vehicles would only require 500 dollars worth of parts. Other things run off gas besides just cars.
But cars account for most carbon based emissions
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Old 01-27-2008, 10:42 PM #78
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But cars account for most carbon based emissions
Charts to prove this? Not doubting you, but I think it would be interesting to see what other hardware takes up a decent chunk of oil.
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Old 01-27-2008, 10:52 PM #79
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Charts to prove this? Not doubting you, but I think it would be interesting to see what other hardware takes up a decent chunk of oil.
I was wrong, although they do make up a sizable chunk, 20%-25%
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:44 PM #80
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Old 01-27-2008, 11:46 PM #81
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Forgot to post the link
http://www.ecobridge.org/content/g_cse.htm
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Old 01-28-2008, 01:17 AM #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonysk83 View Post
According to the author of the book, a world renowned engineer, hydrogen fuel cell cars will never exist on a large scale. Hydrogen isn't easy to make. According to him you'd use more energy to produce the hydrogen then the amount of energy you'd get out of the reaction.

I still haven't really heard anyone give me a solid reason why ethanol isn't a viable solution.

Brazil imports little to no oil, do you guys realize this? Because its governmental required that all new cars on the road are flex fueled. So how if this is working in Brazil won't it work in the U.S.?


Hydrogen is very easy to make, it is roughly 75% of the universe's elemental mass. The most common way to extract Hydrogen is through electrolysis, which is sticking two probes in water and pushing a current through it. Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis is between 80% and 94%, and the maximum theoretical efficiency of a fuel cell is 83%. Fuel cells are also extremely reliable, averaging only one minute of downtime for five years of use. However it isn't the efficiency that sells hydrogen it's the way it can be harnessed. Producing the energy to allow for electrolysis can be as easy as finding a spot that light hits the earth, or through wind turbine, geothermal, even nuclear plus a few others. It would require a entire revamp of our transport and energy system however when it comes to it we can be 100% clean, 100% renewable, 100% self sustained. Granted all the data I posted is purely theoretical and only under perfect conditions can those numbers be generated. However there are new processes being developed that can extract hydrogen in greater efficiencies.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:03 PM #83
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The bottom line and the point of the thread was to break free from our dependency on foreign oil.

We have not had a new refinery in this country in 29 years, we are sitting on huge oil deposits off shore and in ANWR yet pressure from special interest groups keep us from tapping into them.

Alternative fuels are the long term solution but it's just not viable right now, I think what needs to happen is that we should immediately tap into our own domestic resources, build new refineries to handle the loads, and at the same time mandate that the auto industry ramp up production on alternative fuel vehicles.

All of this needs to happen now if we're serious about breaking out dependency on foriegn oil.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:29 PM #84
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The problem of all that hammersmith is sadly enough we aren't serious about breaking our foreign dependency on oil, all we hear is rhetoric from Washington about it but no action, oh wait, what else is new?
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