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Old 01-21-2008, 07:44 PM #43
ninjarz (Banned)
 
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Originally Posted by mynameisjonathon View Post
Yeah, because if you make drugs legal they will turn right into cooperations just like tobaco overnight...

Get real.
They would, maybe not literally overnight, but close enough. Wherever there is mass amounts of money to be made, there will be a corporations ready to seize the opportunity.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:46 PM #44
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Originally Posted by Spritz!!!Spritz!!! View Post
Most definately. Last week, I saw a Circle K Employee stab a guy with a slurpee straw, that worked at the Quickmart, because they offered 6 packs for a ridicolous low price... AND they were always cooled..
You either failed to comprehend what I said, or are being sarcastic. There is no middle ground on this one.

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Originally Posted by ninjarz View Post
They would, maybe not literally overnight, but close enough. Wherever there is mass amounts of money to be made, there will be a corporations ready to seize the opportunity.
Yah, in a perfect world. One that doesn't already have established drug routes, etc. What you'd see is corporations fighting cartels.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:48 PM #45
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Originally Posted by JcKa View Post
Excuse me, but "huh?"
If drugs were legal, there would be no need for drug dealers to kill someone because there would be no such thing as drug dealers.

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Originally Posted by JcKa View Post
Oh I see, so corporations would now mass produce the drugs at an even higher rate, and naturally, corporations will be more inclined to give you a healthier drug than one thats cheaper and easier to produce. If you'd care to explain how corporations would evolve to start producing narcotics and how the government would effectively regulate them, please, do tell. Because all I can figure is that the people who already control the market will probably continue to control the market, through intimidation, monopolization, and producing/distributing in ways that aren't applicable to regulate.

Excuse me, but "huh?"

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Originally Posted by JcKa View Post
Enjoy telling yourself that.
Explain on how they were irrelevant/illogical, then maybe you will have some credibility.

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Originally Posted by JcKa View Post
Yah, in a perfect world. One that doesn't already have established drug routes, etc. What you'd see is corporations fighting cartels.
And the corporations would clearly win because they have way more resources and more money, thus ending drug dealers.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:49 PM #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcka
As long as there is demand for them, and profit to be made from them, there is no way to stop them. Yes, but you can severely cut into their supplies, thus bottlenecking their flow and slowing down the amount that's on our streets. Just because you can't win the war the first day doesn't mean you give up.
Reducing the supply will drive the price up. Higher profits to be made will in turn encourage the greed of people who would of otherwise not been willing to accept the risks. The supply will then never really be reduced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcka
Relevance?
The relevance is that once again, you will not stop the problem. It only shifts it to someone else. As long as there is a demand for them, someone will be willing to risk everything to supply that demand. If your plan includes making people not want drugs, your on to something. Otherwise it doesn't fix the problem, only masks the symptoms of that problem.
Theres a quote I have heard...
"If you can heal the symptoms
But not affect the cause
It's quite a bit like trying to heal
A gunshot wound with gauze"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcka
That's amazing. Still doesn't support the logic that if it was legal we'd see less dealers. And that's not a bad thing, at least one was taken away.
Yes it is amazing. And yes it is great they got one. But the problems hasn't been resolved. As I mentioned previously, its just shifted elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcka
I've actually researched this issue. Prohibition did an amazing thing for our country. Before prohibition, our hard liquor consumption was insanely high, with similar results being seen in almost all other western countries. After prohibition, our hard liquor consumption dropped incredibly (we traded for beer, which is arguably healthier), while our current western countries maintain an incredible amount of hard liquor abuse and deaths related to drinking.
Did the amount decrease, or did the amount reported decrease because it was more well hidden due to its legal status? When you create a black market, you can never really determine the extent of that market.

[quote=jcka]Relevance?
The relevance here is that, one alcoholic is lessing damaging then an emergency room full of gun shot wound victims. The profit on the black market is high enough to motivate people to violently defend their share of that market. If you take the profit away by legalizing and selling for less, our streets would in fact be safer then they currently are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcka
But not really, considering alcohol has been a regulated industry for hundreds of years.
The amount of time is irrelevant. The effects of that regulation are what truly matter. If the only reason alcohol is legal is because its been sold for a long time, then our politicians truly do not have our best interest in mind, so you can't argue government only attempts to end drug use for the good of the people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kcka
When you accept the reality that not all drugs can be eliminated but we can slow them down significantly, you'll be able to see more clearly.
I can see clearly now, thank you. As mentioned, slowing them short term will only serve to speed them up long term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcka
Hrm. Making it illegal to use them, actively trying to cut your access to them, and undermining the structures that deliver you said drugs?
I don't understand this? They are already illegal, and yet people continue to risk their life to produce and distribute them? How can you make something "more illegal" then yielding the right to life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcka
The government is entrusted to act in the public's best interest.
See above. This is ridiculous on so many levels. If they acted in our best interest, we would not waste millions to fight battles that were lost centuries ago. Alcohol would be illegal, as well as cigarettes. Not regulated, taxed and profited from.

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Originally Posted by jcka
Move to Antarctica and import your drugs then. Don't do it in someone's community where they don't want that element funding other illegal activities that further undermine society.
I'll set up a Paypal account to accept donations for my move to Antarctica. Care to donate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcka
The interests of society as a whole?
I've covered this twice already in this post


When you quote as did, it makes it much more difficult and time consuming to debate. Please quote my section and your reply separately in the future.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:51 PM #47
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Originally Posted by ninjarz View Post
If drugs were legal, there would be no need for drug dealers to kill someone because there would be no such thing as drug dealers.

lol.


Excuse me, but "huh?"

Cute, except that would only work if I was making a ridiculous and logical fallacy, as see in the quote where it was first applied to.

Explain on how they were irrelevant/illogical, then maybe you will have some credibility.
You're claiming that if drugs were made illegal, good 'ole blue collar corporations would take over, all those drug cartels would float away, and all drug problems would disappear, and you're asking me to explain my credibility? Please.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:51 PM #48
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Corporations wouldn't be fighting at all, dealers would get stomped, why would anyone want to associate with someone who is providing them something in an unlawful way, because surely they wouldn't be taxed, for a higher price when you could just stop in at walmart get it cheaper without all of the hassle.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:53 PM #49
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Originally Posted by JcKa View Post
I wouldn't get mugged by a junkie? An addict will still need money if they're legal or not.
That's exactly why it should be legalized. A junkie will still be a junkie, but most people aren't like that. Not everyone is a poor, corrupt, junkie, bastard. The average person should be able to eat a handful of mushrooms without being considered a criminal.

There are bad people, and there are good people. Legalizing drugs will not change this. It will, however, stop money going into the pockets of gang leaders, and drug cartels in Columbia. It will go into the hands of law abiding citizens of The United States of America.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:54 PM #50
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How would dealers get stomped? They already have the means to produce it, and can avoid the large taxes of a cooperation. Why woulden't they be able to bring the product to you cheaper?

Besides thats what we need anyways. The dedication of our land and resources to creating drugs so you guys can get your fix...
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:55 PM #51
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If you can heal the symptoms
But not affect the cause
It's quite a bit like trying to heal
A gunshot wound with gauze

If you can heal the symptoms
but not affect the cause
you can't heal the symptoms
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:56 PM #52
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Originally Posted by JcKa View Post
You're claiming that if drugs were made illegal, good 'ole blue collar corporations would take over, all those drug cartels would float away, and all drug problems would disappear, and you're asking me to explain my credibility? Please.
I never said all drug problems would disappear, but there would be less crimes committed due to the illegal distribution of drugs. The drug dealers would disappear because there is no way they could keep up with huge corporations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynameisjonathon View Post
How would dealers get stomped? They already have the means to produce it, and can avoid the large taxes of a cooperation. Why woulden't they be able to bring the product to you cheaper?

Besides thats what we need anyways. The dedication of our land and resources to creating drugs so you guys can get your fix...
Dealers would get stomped because the corporations can sell drugs for cheaper than dealers can produce it.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:57 PM #53
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Originally Posted by mynameisjonathon View Post
How would dealers get stomped? They already have the means to produce it, and can avoid the large taxes of a cooperation. Why woulden't they be able to bring the product to you cheaper?

Besides thats what we need anyways. The dedication of our land and resources to creating drugs so you guys can get your fix...
Because corporations can mass produce it for way cheaper, you don't see tobacco dealers do you?
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:00 PM #54
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Originally Posted by JcKa View Post
You're claiming that if drugs were made illegal, good 'ole blue collar corporations would take over, all those drug cartels would float away, and all drug problems would disappear, and you're asking me to explain my credibility? Please.
Why would a criminal risk selling drugs for a smaller profit? If companies had control of the drugs, and the price lowered, there would be no incentive for criminals to sell drugs. They would turn to robbing banks then, or something with money to be made.
Do you really believe it costs $400 to grow an ounce of marijuana? How come similar plants, like tomatoes, celery, parsley, oregano, and corn can be grown and sold for several dollars a pound then?
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:02 PM #55
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Originally Posted by ninjarz View Post
Yeah, heroin is physcially addictive, but it isn't really that bad for you. Sure you can overdose on it, but you could overdose on anything. If it was made cleanly and correctly, way less people would be physically hurt from it.

I would want it legal, it won't harm me at all.
"Long term heroin side effects include but are not limited to:
Suppression of pain
Addiction

Suppression of pain
Liver or kidney disease
Abscesses
Collapsed veins
Bacterial infections
Infection of heart lining and valves
Arthritis and other rheumatologic problems
Constipation caused by a combination of poor eating and the effects of the drug on the bowels can lead to haemorrhoids. Addicts can also suffer from malnutrition because they're never hungry.

Infectious diseases, for example, HIV/AIDS and hepatitis B and C"

Sounds like it might harm you....


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Originally Posted by ninjarz View Post
People will do drugs whether they are legal or not, so either way their "mind will be destroyed" like you said. Also, it is "ok" to do this to yourself, it doesn't harm anyone but you. People wouldn't start using hard drugs just because they are legal.
More people would experiment due to the fact that they are legal. Then they would become addicted and become regular users.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:02 PM #56
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[quote=phiend;43630517]Reducing the supply will drive the price up. Higher profits to be made will in turn encourage the greed of people who would of otherwise not been willing to accept the risks. The supply will then never really be reduced.

Making the price higher will reduce the amount of people that can access the drugs.

The relevance is that once again, you will not stop the problem. It only shifts it to someone else. As long as there is a demand for them, someone will be willing to risk everything to supply that demand. If your plan includes making people not want drugs, your on to something. Otherwise it doesn't fix the problem, only masks the symptoms of that problem.
Theres a quote I have heard...
"If you can heal the symptoms
But not affect the cause
It's quite a bit like trying to heal
A gunshot wound with gauze"



Yes it is amazing. And yes it is great they got one. But the problems hasn't been resolved. As I mentioned previously, its just shifted elsewhere.

Your plan does the same thing - in a much more damaging way.


Did the amount decrease, or did the amount reported decrease because it was more well hidden due to its legal status? When you create a black market, you can never really determine the extent of that market.

You missed the part where I said "after prohibition".

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcka
Relevance?
The relevance here is that, one alcoholic is lessing damaging then an emergency room full of gun shot wound victims. The profit on the black market is high enough to motivate people to violently defend their share of that market. If you take the profit away by legalizing and selling for less, our streets would in fact be safer then they currently are.

Except you'd effectively flood the country with drugs far more than if they were illegal.

The amount of time is irrelevant. The effects of that regulation are what truly matter. If the only reason alcohol is legal is because its been sold for a long time, then our politicians truly do not have our best interest in mind, so you can't argue government only attempts to end drug use for the good of the people.

Actually the time is relevant. It has been regulated for so long that we have an idea as to how to properly regulate it, whereas with illegal narcotics, we have little guarantee.

I can see clearly now, thank you. As mentioned, slowing them short term will only serve to speed them up long term.

Slowing them short term? Realize that the drug war is relatively young, and that it is progressing globally.

I don't understand this? They are already illegal, and yet people continue to risk their life to produce and distribute them? How can you make something "more illegal" then yielding the right to life?

I don't understand your quote. I was saying is it better to do that or make it legal and attempt treat the dozens of millions (likely hundreds of millions if legalized) addicts while trying to figure out how to regulate such a deeply established underground industry.

See above. This is ridiculous on so many levels. If they acted in our best interest, we would not waste millions to fight battles that were lost centuries ago. Alcohol would be illegal, as well as cigarettes. Not regulated, taxed and profited from.

You can say whatever you want about how our gov't doesn't "act in our best interests", but it all is irrelevant when that is applied in theory.

I've covered this twice already in this post

Not really.

When you quote as did, it makes it much more difficult and time consuming to debate. Please quote my section and your reply separately in the future.
Apologize for the inconvenience, but it is incredibly difficult for me to respond to 2+ people at the same time while responding to multiple points contained within a single sentence/paragraph - while still remaining organized and legible. If you want, feel free to respond in a p1, p2, etc fashion.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:04 PM #57
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"Making the price higher will reduce the amount of people that can access the drugs"

No it will cause those junkies to mug you like you mentioned earlier

Edit - and why would anyone else become addicted if it were legalized, it's already easy enough to obtain anyone who wants to try it has.

Double edit- and why couldn't we just use the same rules that we use to regulate smoking and alchohal on drugs? besides getting other people high if you did it in public I don't see a difference.

Last edited by 47.magnum : 01-21-2008 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:05 PM #58
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Originally Posted by JcKa View Post
Define what legalizing says, because to me it says, "we the government have deemed this suitable for consumption." If you believe drugs are suitable for consumption, I think I'll stop arguing you.

Look at it this way. There's a 1-2 approach. Station one is the drug producers. These people maintain a population that is incredibly small compared to that of the addict population. These people produce the drugs, which are needed by the junkies.

Station two are the significant majority - the users. These people need the cartels to function, which the cartels also need to function respectively, but they greatly outnumber the cartels (by some ridiculous number).

Attack the relatively small number of producers/distributors vs. attempt to attack the dozens of millions of junkies (while simultaneously allowing the flow of drugs to them to not only increase but double in most situations). How do you plan on attacking the problem of junkies while allowing the flow of drugs to increase?

And look at it this way. Guns are a health issue, why should we prevent guns from reaching peoples hands, shouldn't we just focus on treating gunshot victims?
Legallizing, to me, says "we do not have the authority to take away your rights for this."

States can regulate the flow of drugs. States can use their own tax money to arrest illegal drug distributors, like they do to arrest moonshiners, but the federal government shouldn't be involved. And about the guns, also state regulated. The right to own cannot be infringed, but the trade can be regulated, and the same should apply for drugs. Also, responsible gun owners are not penalized, but when they use it irresponsibly and put others in danger they are. The same philosophy should apply to drugs.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:06 PM #59
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Originally Posted by icp1327 View Post
"Long term heroin side effects include but are not limited to:
Suppression of pain
Addiction

Suppression of pain
Liver or kidney disease
Abscesses
Collapsed veins
Bacterial infections
Infection of heart lining and valves
Arthritis and other rheumatologic problems
Constipation caused by a combination of poor eating and the effects of the drug on the bowels can lead to haemorrhoids. Addicts can also suffer from malnutrition because they're never hungry.

Infectious diseases, for example, HIV/AIDS and hepatitis B and C"

Sounds like it might harm you....

Yeah, but most of those could be stopped if it was made in a sanitary fashion.


More people would experiment due to the fact that they are legal. Then they would become addicted and become regular users.
They are only hurting themselves, if you don't want to become addicted don't try the drug.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:08 PM #60
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Originally Posted by 47.magnum View Post
Because corporations can mass produce it for way cheaper, you don't see tobacco dealers do you?
What ever. State taxes make tobacco very expensive where I'm from. For the sake of argument lets not bring in outside information that dosen't matter. Tobacco has been regulated for hundreds of years probably, and less and less people have begun to smoke, suprise its probably gotten more expensive than it used to be. Most people think that those hard drugs are probably worse for you than cigerates, what makes you think that a large public is going to openly embrace drug use? They aren't thats why its still illegal, and is going to continue to be illegal.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:12 PM #61
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What ever. State taxes make tobacco very expensive where I'm from. For the sake of argument lets not bring in outside information that dosen't matter. Tobacco has been regulated for hundreds of years probably, and less and less people have begun to smoke, suprise its probably gotten more expensive than it used to be. Most people think that those hard drugs are probably worse for you than cigerates, what makes you think that a large public is going to openly embrace drug use? They aren't thats why its still illegal, and is going to continue to be illegal.
You say that most people wouldn't want it legalized, even though you one of the only ones in this thread against it even though you are on a forum that is dominated by southern conservatives.

Edit- and still why wouldn't we use our previous knowledge of legal drug regulation on drugs that are currently illegal.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:13 PM #62
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Because I see this going in circles, I'll leave my final statement and see if there is a reply that furthers this debate. Legalization does nothing but say, "Hey, I'd rather get rid of the crimes the junkie does than the junkie." The junkie is our problem, and legalization will do nothing but explode the population that is "a junkie." The war on drugs is progressing, and we have seen incredible reductions in cocaine use, among other drugs. Our size and bureaucracy not only limits the plausibility of legalization working, combined with the fact that legalization would allow for even more explosive ways of illegal drug trafficking to reach our streets, it makes legalization an obsolete ideal. Proponents of legalization are incredibly optimistic in the ability of corporations to respond to the legalization of drugs, yet they ignore the reality that is the strength of the black market, a damaging entity that has the power and motivation to find a way around any regulation or ideal we throw at it, thus, it is only logical that we attempt to fight the black market at it's core, and in 10-20 years, it is likely we could succeed in stemming it to the point where it is not economically viable for them to continue producing. Whether the governmental bodies required to do such a thing is something desirable is negligible, as the legalization of drugs will further far greater evils and open a Pandora's box of issues that the world has yet to see.

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Corporations wouldn't be fighting at all, dealers would get stomped, why would anyone want to associate with someone who is providing them something in an unlawful way, because surely they wouldn't be taxed, for a higher price when you could just stop in at walmart get it cheaper without all of the hassle.
Dealers would hardly get stomped. What makes you so sure that our government could effectively regulate the drugs and that corporations could even begin to get the funding to start, or that they wouldn't resort to damaging practices? Also, this whole argument of legalization trades junkie crimes for a higher number of junkies, while ignoring the obvious fact that the more that is available the more it will be consumed, creating an even greater demand for fix money.

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Originally Posted by As a Young Man View Post
That's exactly why it should be legalized. A junkie will still be a junkie, but most people aren't like that. Not everyone is a poor, corrupt, junkie, bastard. The average person should be able to eat a handful of mushrooms without being considered a criminal.

There are bad people, and there are good people. Legalizing drugs will not change this. It will, however, stop money going into the pockets of gang leaders, and drug cartels in Columbia. It will go into the hands of law abiding citizens of The United States of America.
You're trying to argue which drugs should be illegal and which should be legal, and that's for another debate. The title of this is "seriously, all drugs should be legal."

You guys are so fanatical in your belief that if they were legalized the black market would suddenly say "o wells, lets find another way to get money." While you manage to give incredible credit to the flexibility of corporations, you greatly underestimate the flexibility of the black market in producing profits from drugs. If you block off that avenue, what makes you think they won't find a new one? Not to mention the fact that you're ignoring the true problem, which is people's addiction to the drugs.

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Originally Posted by phiend View Post
If you can heal the symptoms
But not affect the cause
It's quite a bit like trying to heal
A gunshot wound with gauze

If you can heal the symptoms
but not affect the cause
you can't heal the symptoms
Your second stanza proves my point. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by ninjarz View Post
I never said all drug problems would disappear, but there would be less crimes committed due to the illegal distribution of drugs. The drug dealers would disappear because there is no way they could keep up with huge corporations.


Dealers would get stomped because the corporations can sell drugs for cheaper than dealers can produce it.
Right, and these corporations would form overnight and instead of stopping the drugs (which are the tool drug dealers use to make profits) we just throw a curve by the drug cartels and hope they can't find a new way to profit from drugs? Sure.

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Originally Posted by 47.magnum View Post
Because corporations can mass produce it for way cheaper, you don't see tobacco dealers do you?
Tobacco is a crop and naturally isn't addictive.

Last edited by JcKa : 01-21-2008 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:15 PM #63
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.

Thats all you can come up with....this would stop with better sanitization, come on now.

People that are high on the drugs would commit other crimes, they are not just going to sit at home and use. Look at all the DUI's, not all people just sit at home and drink some decide, they think they are fine, go out and drive. Yes the same thing happens now even with illegal drugs but it would increase even more if they were legalized. MORE PEOPLE WOULD USE because there is no more fear of being caught.
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