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Old 01-01-2008, 11:58 PM #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalBallr View Post
okay...I'll say it. Anyone think that the new halo and the xbox 360 has anything to do with it? Everyone I know that balls has one and they spend a lot of time playing online, in groups, and just enjoying all the features. I think the economy and the advance of gaming are taking its toll...
So your theory is that everyone has decided to stay inside and play games instead of heading to the paintball field? I'm not going to disagree that there is a general trend for kids to do less physical activities, but I have a hard time believing it will make a huge impact so quickly.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:01 AM #44
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Originally Posted by cashpaints View Post
Well the reason why paint price seems high too most consumers is because for golf I can by top of the line balls like Pro VX1 for 50 dollars a dozen and those would last me well over a season for golf. When people start comparing things like this it seems like paint is really expensive. You cant even purchase top of the line paint for 50 dollar a case and that would last most of us about three hours. Worst day for me in golf 3 balls in a 4-5 hour period. Its really because of what people are comparing this sport too. Everyone I know compares it to high expense sports, like golf because you have to play at a field a full top of the line setup could cost you in the $2,000 range which is similar to golf, but golf is no going downhill because its been around longer and what people view golf as is the rich sport that you can use in life for business. As for paintball most people think war wannabe and violent gang people which is not true, but when you go to a paintball field the first time its always like that someone saying FU here and there. I can also tell you that the video on youtube of the guy getting punch in the face probally already turned somepeople away.

I think I went off subject but I think this could probally be helpful to some of you guys.
You're analogy to golf is not a bad analogy, but you compared the wrong part of golf to paintball. It's correct that golf balls are cheaper than paintballs, but greens fees(these are comparable or even more expensive than a days worth of paintballs) are more expensive than field entry.

People are turned away from paintball because it "looks" like it hurts, not because of someone saying "FU here and there". We now live in a world where that kind of language is commonplace regardless of where you are or what you are doing. Where that kind of language can hurt the sport or a particular field, is if the field that player is playing at does nothing to stop that player from continuously using that language. The fields I currently frequent all warn against using this type of language, and I have seen refs warn players, but I also have not seen a player push the subject to see if they would actually be ejected(I do however believe that they would be).

I must now apologize, because I too went off-topic.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:02 AM #45
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One thing that I can add to this thread is that at the local field I play it business has been slow bot retail and paint sales during open play. This field does a very poor job of getting more people into the sport and that's because they sell (much like many other fields) white box paint. So at $35 a case it's really cheap and they allow the field sponsored team to play during open play with the first timers and families. Now the last time I played there one of the stores team members bought 2 cases for the day, which was about a 4 hour period and this guy is shooting a NXT on ramping. And during the games the entire team would be on one side against all of the open play people and they would each shoot 2-4 pods each.

I think that with such cheap paint prices it's keep people from getting in the sport like my example. To me this makes perfect sense because if you are just starting off you would feel the need to be able to shoot as fast as the other players on the field. This is why the ion (and other cheap electro guns) are so popular because kids don't care about quality they care about the amount of paint they can get out of their gun so a stock ion on ramping is just what they want.

Then you have the very first timers with rentals, which are usually mechanical, against the seasoned team players and kids shooting ramping ions.

Now you can't tell me this isn't true because I see it at every field I've played at.

I shoot completely clean semi but can still shoot a case in a day of open play if i'm not conserving but i have also played long enough and worked enough to be able to shoot that fast. But lately i've only been buying a bag each day of play and when i go back to school (i play for my college team) i'll be using my new sniper (cocker pump) so slow it down even more.

Tournaments are one thing but shooting as fast as you can all the time is not needed and will stop people from picking up the sport. (Unless they like being shot out then 5-15 more times when they try to leave the field with their rental tippman in hand)
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:06 AM #46
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"and I have no problem with someone shooting at me as many times as it takes to eliminate me."

Does it take more than 1 hit to eliminate you?
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:10 AM #47
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to many idiots running paintball businesses. sorry, but its true. love to see people posting wholesale prices and whatnot on here. its the reason why my customers come in and tell me what they will pay for my product, because EVERYONE in this sport, seems to know my cost on it. i love that.

to many idiots selling paintball products to the paintball busisness owners. this is a real fun one. half of my reps, are brainless, morons, that will sell anything to anyone becuase their brainless moron boss, just wants to see numbers at the end of the month. break map. who cares, they sure dont.

to many idiots playing paintball. yeah this one is obvious. its the reason why even though paintball is my business, its not my pasttime. i got tired of the paintball player. he is a complete idiot. he has no respect, no honorability, and worst of all no brain. put a 23998729387423 ball per second marker in his hand, and what you get is the cheating, wiping, bonus balling, motherf'er screaming dueche bag that now roams todays fields.

and this is just the start of paintballs problems. no the bottom didnt drop out. what you wished for, is what you got. a sport that has been so whored out, so based on greed and disrespect, that its run itself completely into the ground. and it will be years before, if ever it comes back to what it was. this isnt a correction, this is a complete failure of a market and an industry.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:11 AM #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
"well if you bought it for 6 bucks and there were 50% more players then??"

Cheaper paint will NOT mean more players.

If I bought it for 6 bucks then sold it for $15 I would make $9 per case. Even with 50% more players I would see less profit.

Example:
100 players each shoot 500 balls @ $20 (my current bag price)
That's 25 cases with a profit of $50 each (assuming wholesale at $30 per case)
$1250 profit on 100 players shooting 500 balls

150 players each shoot 1 case @ $15 (your idea)
That's 150 cases with a profit of $9 per case (assuming a case per player)
$1350 profit on 150 players each shooting a case

That might seem like I made $100 more dollars.... but... 50 more players means at least 3 more refs. 3 refs x 8 hours = 24 hours x $8 per hour = $192 in increased payroll plus taxes and workmans comp and social security, etc.

I also now need 50% more fields to accomodate the new players as well as more staging space. That cost more but I am now making less.

This example is moot anyway beacause: Cheaper paint will NOT mean more players.
Your example is also moot because you forgot to factor in the 50 additional entrance fees that you would be paid, which would probably earn you more than you would spend on those three additional referees that you did account for.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:13 AM #49
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"I personally cannot wait until paint is $15 per case, because I will be able to buy more"

Exactly... Cheaper paint = more paint bought = more paint shot = equals more players unhappy with all the hits = fewer new players = fewer players.

More paint in the air is NOT more fun for anyone. It does not make the game better.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:15 AM #50
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"Your example is also moot because you forgot to factor in the 50 additional entrance fees that you would be paid, which would probably earn you more than you would spend on those three additional referees that you did account for."

So in the end I would have to do 50% more work to break even. Again... No thanks.

And don't forget: Cheaper paint will NOT mean more players
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:18 AM #51
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"to many idiots running paintball businesses. sorry, but its true. love to see people posting wholesale prices and whatnot on here."

tecdaddy, Not sure if you meant me but I didn't mention any actual prices I put an assumed wholesale cost.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:20 AM #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjones1213 View Post
One thing that I can add to this thread is that at the local field I play it business has been slow bot retail and paint sales during open play. This field does a very poor job of getting more people into the sport and that's because they sell (much like many other fields) white box paint. So at $35 a case it's really cheap and they allow the field sponsored team to play during open play with the first timers and families. Now the last time I played there one of the stores team members bought 2 cases for the day, which was about a 4 hour period and this guy is shooting a NXT on ramping. And during the games the entire team would be on one side against all of the open play people and they would each shoot 2-4 pods each.

I think that with such cheap paint prices it's keep people from getting in the sport like my example. To me this makes perfect sense because if you are just starting off you would feel the need to be able to shoot as fast as the other players on the field. This is why the ion (and other cheap electro guns) are so popular because kids don't care about quality they care about the amount of paint they can get out of their gun so a stock ion on ramping is just what they want.

Then you have the very first timers with rentals, which are usually mechanical, against the seasoned team players and kids shooting ramping ions.

Now you can't tell me this isn't true because I see it at every field I've played at.

I shoot completely clean semi but can still shoot a case in a day of open play if i'm not conserving but i have also played long enough and worked enough to be able to shoot that fast. But lately i've only been buying a bag each day of play and when i go back to school (i play for my college team) i'll be using my new sniper (cocker pump) so slow it down even more.

Tournaments are one thing but shooting as fast as you can all the time is not needed and will stop people from picking up the sport. (Unless they like being shot out then 5-15 more times when they try to leave the field with their rental tippman in hand)
You give a very good example of what can keep players from continuing to play paintball after their first time out. But the real reason that first time players are not returning to the fields that you mentioned in your example are not because paint is so cheap, but because the fields you mentioned do a poor job of ensuring that everyone has fun while playing. My local fields' only allow straight semi, as well as try to break the teams up as evenly as possible. If after playing 2 or 3 games, the referees see that the teams are not even, they will make changes to the teams to make them as even as possible. I'm sorry to say this, but your local fields are hurting their own business through their business practices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
"and I have no problem with someone shooting at me as many times as it takes to eliminate me."

Does it take more than 1 hit to eliminate you?
No, it only takes one hit, but not everyone is going to get with their first shot.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:22 AM #53
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honestly, i didnt even read your posts. but i hear it everyday. everyone knows my cost on everything. and it sure isnt from me telling them.... business men, never mention to the consumer in any form, what they pay for something. they try to protect their livelyhood. they try to perpetuate the business that they spent so much time and money building.

not in paintball it seems. everybody tells everybody everything like is a highschool dance. again, too few businessmen, and to many idiots. its disappointing when you do everything right, and everyone can go online and in matter of minutes learn everything on the wholesale side.

i cant tell you how many customers have come into my store, COMPLETELY clueless about paintball. then they come back the next day, and they are paintball experts, to include wholesale prices, how paintball is hurting, how they are supposed to barter, you name it. its unreal.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:23 AM #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecdady View Post
to many idiots running paintball businesses. sorry, but its true. love to see people posting wholesale prices and whatnot on here. its the reason why my customers come in and tell me what they will pay for my product, because EVERYONE in this sport, seems to know my cost on it. i love that.

to many idiots selling paintball products to the paintball busisness owners. this is a real fun one. half of my reps, are brainless, morons, that will sell anything to anyone becuase their brainless moron boss, just wants to see numbers at the end of the month. break map. who cares, they sure dont.

to many idiots playing paintball. yeah this one is obvious. its the reason why even though paintball is my business, its not my pasttime. i got tired of the paintball player. he is a complete idiot. he has no respect, no honorability, and worst of all no brain. put a 23998729387423 ball per second marker in his hand, and what you get is the cheating, wiping, bonus balling, motherf'er screaming dueche bag that now roams todays fields.

and this is just the start of paintballs problems. no the bottom didnt drop out. what you wished for, is what you got. a sport that has been so whored out, so based on greed and disrespect, that its run itself completely into the ground. and it will be years before, if ever it comes back to what it was. this isnt a correction, this is a complete failure of a market and an industry.
Good post (even if it was a bit of a rant). Yes, I'm afraid I agree. It will take many years, if it ever will, for the industry to get to where it needs to be.

It's still funny to see how many people still hold onto the belief that making everything cheaper (mainly paintballs) will fix our industry's problems, when in truth it wil probably do the exact opposite.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:26 AM #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
"I personally cannot wait until paint is $15 per case, because I will be able to buy more"

Exactly... Cheaper paint = more paint bought = more paint shot = equals more players unhappy with all the hits = fewer new players = fewer players.

More paint in the air is NOT more fun for anyone. It does not make the game better.
If you're going to quote me please quote everything, instead of just the part that you feel proves your point.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:28 AM #56
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I agree as well. Players seem to always know what you paid for any given item and resent you making any money on it.

My solution has been that I do not market to paintball players. I don't even really want paintball players at my field.

I market fun. I want people who want to have a good time to come play paintball.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:31 AM #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacc Dragon View Post
If you're going to quote me please quote everything, instead of just the part that you feel proves your point.
Sorry if that bothers you. I was trying to save space. Does any part of the rest of that post change anything?
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:32 AM #58
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Originally Posted by Blacc Dragon View Post
I am a rec player, as well as being fairly new to paintball having started playing in Nov '06, and I have no problem with someone shooting at me as many times as it takes to eliminate me. What I have a problem with is the overshooting of players when they are out(which I believe will continue to happen whether cases are $15 or $150 each), and players playing on after being hit. I personally cannot wait until paint is $15 per case, because I will be able to buy more and play more often. Having more paint on hand will not make me shoot more. It will however get me out to the field more often, because I already have paint on hand which means I only have to pay my entrance and air fees to play.
I wish that were true. It may be true for you, although I even doubt that. If it were true, players would be buying paint at $60/case, shooting only half and saving the other half case for next time, because let's face it, it's only half the cost it was when it was $120/case when they could only afford to buy half a case. But history has shown us that doesn't happen.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:33 AM #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecdady View Post
honestly, i didnt even read your posts. but i hear it everyday. everyone knows my cost on everything. and it sure isnt from me telling them.... business men, never mention to the consumer in any form, what they pay for something. they try to protect their livelyhood. they try to perpetuate the business that they spent so much time and money building.

not in paintball it seems. everybody tells everybody everything like is a highschool dance. again, too few businessmen, and to many idiots. its disappointing when you do everything right, and everyone can go online and in matter of minutes learn everything on the wholesale side.

i cant tell you how many customers have come into my store, COMPLETELY clueless about paintball. then they come back the next day, and they are paintball experts, to include wholesale prices, how paintball is hurting, how they are supposed to barter, you name it. its unreal.
I hate to be the one to tell you this tecdaddy, but this is the way of the world today and is not exclusive to paintball. Do you pay M.S.R.P on the cars you buy? Do you pay full retail on the electronics you buy? Or do you research(whether online or by visiting multiple retailers) the items you are considering purchasing?

And please don't view this as a personal attack, I just have a different point of view than you.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:37 AM #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delmarva Paintball View Post
Sorry if that bothers you. I was trying to save space. Does any part of the rest of that post change anything?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacc Dragon View Post
I personally cannot wait until paint is $15 per case, because I will be able to buy more and play more often. Having more paint on hand will not make me shoot more. It will however get me out to the field more often, because I already have paint on hand which means I only have to pay my entrance and air fees to play.
I personally believe what you quoted changes the context of what I was saying.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:38 AM #61
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i dont charge msrp. never have. but im sorry, i dont care if its the way of the world. my focus is to keep my business running. paintball players have an amazing ability to be LOCUSTS. take, ****, piss, abuse, and move on. who cares if the store or field closes. work it for what you can get, and on to the next thing. and no, this isnt in every industry. i sure as hell dont behave this way ANYWHERE. i have respect. although i may look for a good deal, i rarely know what wholesale is on a product, and i NEVER give someone grief for making money off the sale. its called a store. thats what stores do. when did my store become a public service? im the only person i know that goes to work 8 hours a day, to deal with jerks, for free. i can guarantee that the people that are giving me the grief sure as hell dont work for free.

also, i can tell you, many of the products i buy including electronics are successfully sold at MAP. they have manufacturers that do their jobs. go buy a sony product. you will never find it below map.

and no i didnt take it as a personal attack, but i am curious as to wheather or not you own a paintball store or field.

Last edited by tecdady : 01-02-2008 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:45 AM #62
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I have played paintball for nearly 20 years and have owned paintball fields and stores for almost 10 years now. I have learned a few things in that time.

The fun in paintball is not produced by the paint in the air and more paint in the air will not mean more fun. It really is that simple.

Why in the world would I want to make less money and deliver less fun.
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:49 AM #63
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Thats the problem you are completing with the manufacturers for a large part of a small market. Then you add the manufactures that back door product and you are squezed even more.
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