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Old 12-21-2007, 01:26 AM #43
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Never played a scenario game, but damn, does this sound interesting! If it's really true that you're simply "bending" the rules and not breaking them, then more power to you 10-shot. The way you put it, it really sounds like teams have a monopoly on the 24-hour games. More power to you!

Good read.
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:31 AM #44
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Argelmcgee: Now I remember you. Your one of those guys I barrle tapped infront of everyone at that last viper game. Ah, now I get it.

"Its funny. You seem to take winning really, really seriously... Yet laws, rules and other things imposed because of scumbags are just things to be bypassed and/or ignored."

Yet? Learn how to write, yet doesn't belong there. Also I don't take winning really serriously, I take the game seriously. If you don't like it there are plenty of glue eater big games out there for you and your friends.


"Well, who knows whether it will stand up in court, but fact is, you condone and encourage stealing."

2 police cheifs know it won't stand up in court, I've asked. Any legal deffenition of larceny shows it wouldn't stand up in court. I dare you, double tripple doggy dare you to call the cops on me the next time I steal an ID card, or any props, when it's within game rules. Just make sure your their for an amusing conversation with the cops once they get there. I'm sure they will be thrilled.


"If you disagree, mind giving me a reason why "Steal the ID card whatever way possible" isn't stealing?"

Your right, it is stealing. So is that time you shot someone, they droped the prop they where carrying, and you took it. Your dirty SOB.

"Is it because you don't have "intent to keep" it? Well, you do have intent to use it unjustly or wrongly, and you are taking it away by force and unjust means, and you are taking it away surreptitiously and without permission."

It's because your not taking it away with the intent to deprive them of anything unlawfully. I DO NOT condon taking ANYTHING by force not allowed under the rules and how dare you put those words in my mouth.

"You really don't care about the sport at all?"

I do care and that's why I've puplished this guide. If you actually read it (and I can tell you didn't get past chapter one) I'd bother with proving to you how.

"Make the noobies not want to come back and all that?"

lol. your reading skills are awesome

"C'mon man, playing tricky and sneaky is one thing, but there IS a line, and you really seem to be crossing it."

The only line is the rule book. Don't like it? Don't show up to scenario games.

"I don't know when "we'll be seeing each other on the field in no time," but it won't be in late May, unless Hawk has let you on his side..."

lol, and here professor and his command staff (XO is member of your team right?) had promised me that sorta comment would be kept private.


Silentscope:

First are you absolutly sure viper would be against me stealing ID cards? You ought to ask him before quoting a page from his rulebook that applies to personal property not props.


"First: Kid, go home, grow up. You are not welcome in this community if you wish to play like that. Viruses like you are a poison in this sport that is slowly tearing it apart."

I've been here since 99' and no, glue eaters like you that are against anything other than one side shooting at the other with niffty people in outfits sometimes showing up is what is ruining scenario.

"How dare you call that role-playing?"

lol! HOW DARE I!!!!

"the object of role-playing is to act in a manner that improves that story line and game for all players. Key word, IMPROVE, not capital for your own gain and self-righteous glory."

Silence, one of the leading generals in the NE who has been both hurt and helped by me has already commented on how what I do improves the game and also injures it in some ways. Go read his posts before telling me how awful I am, he's a little more experienced than you. Also actually read the guide before commenting, those seeking glory are not adapted to this role. Furtermore Roleplayers are not just nuetral, they can be on one side or another. Come back to me when you've been around a bit longer .

"Can it be sneaky and cut throat? Yes it can, but in the confines of the rules of the game, win or lose."

This point you got right on mark. EVERYTHING must be within the rules of the game otherwise everything you've just done, means nothing. This is my personal opinion on all rules that are not selectivly enforced or lame catch-alls like,


"If itís unclear; If itís not covered in orientation;If itís in a "grey" area; If itís not written in the GSRP, game-specific addendum's, or on a game-specific card:It Does Not Exist. Ask the Event Director First!" (GSRB)

What is the purpose of that rule? It uses very vauge terms to bassically go "If you can find a way to punch holes in this horribly written rulebook then you can't nyah!" It's set up to be selectivly enforced against people who mentally dominate the field. It's to help out the weak players like you who refuse to think outside the box and get cut down whenever someone smart comes along. It makes true role-players the enemy.

That is a poison that is eating out the insides of scenario paintball and I will never stand for it. I can find ways even around that silly catch-all that catches little but I'm not about to give away awesome tips on this puplic forum to beat someone who didn't even take the time to read my words in a one sided arguement. As I've said before this is a BASIC guide meant to get new people like yourself thinking, not reacting with silly over generallized groupthink, so that maybe you as an individual can make an impact on the field someday.

The reason your seeing such a downright vile backlash over the puplic release of this article is that it shows you, the new individual player, how to mess up teams who really arn't all that great. It's power to the individual, not a hinderance, and I will not appologize for wanting to see the day when one player can make a diffrence on the field come back again.
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:51 AM #45
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Sounds like you're REAL familiar with "Penile" law.....good luck with that.
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Old 12-21-2007, 10:03 AM #46
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lol
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Old 12-21-2007, 10:56 AM #47
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Just kidding, every time someone says "penal" I cant resist!

In all seriousness, I would feel bad about taking another persons id badge though. I guess it's just me, but I started playing around 1993 and had a bunch of fun. I still play to have a lot of fun, and it wouldn't be too great if someone ran away with my id tag and I had to sit on the sidelines or go home. I wouldn't wish that upon anyone else.
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Old 12-21-2007, 12:40 PM #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10-shot kid View Post
lol
If you're going to point out that Argel used "Yet" improperly, you should probably consider your use of the words "your" and "you're." Don't call out someone else's grammar if you yourself make mistakes. It's that whole teapot and kettle thing.

Other than that, I didn't read your whole manual/diatribe. Maybe later...it's too early in the morning to digest all of that.
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Old 12-21-2007, 01:50 PM #49
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well, i just read this entire post and i just wanna say "its amazing" . 10-shot - im my opinion you have mastered the role playing concept. A senerio game is just that , a senerio of a possible real situation. Role playing charachers are not to make the game better for all, it is to "play a role". If in a real war, thier would be spies, double crossers, liars, ect. People lieke you only add a greater sence of realism to the game. Now my dream game would be to have a scum bag on each team, unkown to each oter. Think of the chaos it would cause. it waould be amazing. If senerior are supposed to be like war, chaois is a major part and i applaud you for all you have done.
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Old 12-21-2007, 02:37 PM #50
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There is nothing wrong with exploiting your position as a role player in order to gain an advantage for your team. The problem is when you extend that exploitation to other areas that are merely field management and accountability to gain your advantage. Using the ambiguous nature of the chain of command to influence other players is one thing, but stealing the ID cards that are needed for the field to acknowledge a paying player is quite another. There are other examples, but you can read it on your own.

Role playing is one thing, but being ethically irresponsible is why many people here do not approve of his message.
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Old 12-21-2007, 03:23 PM #51
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I must have missed something. I probably skipped an important paragraph.

If you steal an ID card, you're stealing a game prop. Check with your rule-set to see if it's legal or not. Pay attention to 10-shot guys: if a scenario has spies, this can and will happen. Better to be prepared than to *****.

If you steal a wristband/entrance receipt/proof of purchase you're not stealing a game prop. That's effectively stealing their registration, and I don't see how that's legally any different than stealing someone's tickets to a concert. 10-shot, maybe you could elaborate on that distinction. You keep saying that it wouldn't hold up in court, which I've taken till now to mean that you're only stealing props. Everyone else seems to think you're stealing registration packets, which I don't see how you could possibly get away with any more than you would the concert tickets.
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Old 12-21-2007, 04:36 PM #52
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silence: this seems to be the part everyone and their mother is stuck on. The unfortunate state of things is that many fields make the bonehead decision of making a wrist band a team identifier. This makes it a prop.

Yes I know rules have been changed due to me figuring this out at certain fields and there are rules that have always protected against this at others. Again, THIS IS A BASIC GUIDE. It's not the "how to always be able to do this without any way of not being able to do it" guide because you'd have to pay me money to take the time and effort to write one of those.

Sorry for being a total prick like that, but when I'm writing for free I feel like I get certain liberties of nondiscolsure. For times when their are rules against stealing arm bands and ID cards though I've made a very clear secound option in my set. Counterfiet your own.

"Fraud" you invetiably yell without thinking!

This is the final time I'm going to go over the introductory "what is larceny" dealy-o. If I take an item unlawfully from you with the intent to deprive you of it I have commited larceny. It is not unlawful to steal a game prop. It is not unlawful to take your identification wrist band showing you paid entry if it's in use as a game prop.

IT IS UNLAWFUL to take your wrist band and then not make sure your going to get another one. IT IS UNLAWFUL to steal and entry band with the intent to use it to avoid paying the intrest fee. THAT is stealing the persons entry fee or stealing from the field and that IS unlawful. THAT is the law, learn it, live it, do it.

On the other hand, and I aleady went over this concept in the original post, if any of this is against the rules there is always another way around if your smart enough. I'm not going to tell every single tip and trick to "clear my name" on the serious business of the internets because so far the majority of "10-shot is an unethical SOB" people are too stupid to read and comprehend the original guide.
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Old 12-21-2007, 04:50 PM #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silence View Post
I must have missed something. I probably skipped an important paragraph.

If you steal an ID card, you're stealing a game prop. Check with your rule-set to see if it's legal or not. Pay attention to 10-shot guys: if a scenario has spies, this can and will happen. Better to be prepared than to *****.

If you steal a wristband/entrance receipt/proof of purchase you're not stealing a game prop. That's effectively stealing their registration, and I don't see how that's legally any different than stealing someone's tickets to a concert. 10-shot, maybe you could elaborate on that distinction. You keep saying that it wouldn't hold up in court, which I've taken till now to mean that you're only stealing props. Everyone else seems to think you're stealing registration packets, which I don't see how you could possibly get away with any more than you would the concert tickets.
Hmmmm... I didn't see it that way. Leave it to you to point things out.

I know 10-shot is doing old school tactics. It's the way the game was played way back. Hell I know how to do the same things and know others that still do. But these are different times and I adjust to the games and people. Some games you can play like that but most you can't. The Deadwood game up at StrategyPlus was role playing off the field as much as on the field. With props, cap guns, poker game for points, hold ups, etc., where you could of done some of this stuff. We even had a horse auction of someone else's prop that they had drop and was found by someone else.
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Old 12-21-2007, 05:22 PM #54
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couple things here,
1) if u dont like whats in this thread, dont read it.
2) event though i would never steal someones id card, the way he has it stated is within the rules, i its against the rules dont do it, if its nto against the rules thats your decision.
3) general mark where do you have the right to say that to someone??? lol to much time on your hands?!?!? lol look at your self and tell me thats not a man that couldent have found somethign better to do then to dress up like Amon Goeth.

10 shot you info is greatly aprechiated. im gona laugh if this year the germans get screwed over by a guy that read your info. lol
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Old 12-21-2007, 08:42 PM #55
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10-shot... I saw you at EMR, and I was actually sort of thrilled. You were a player I recognized and respected. I had never met you directly, either in person or on a forum. I'm pretty sure you didn't barrel tap me, however. I did get barrel tapped by a Blue player when we had taken over the Blue HQ and were holding off a couple of attacks. It was completely out of the blue (pun not intended) and a great move. If it was you, kudos, and all that. I actually left the field grinning. Whoever did that had guts. I don't know (or care) if you believe me or not, but I was not in the least upset (although I was tired, hungry, and anxious to get off the field and get a bite to eat and a lot to drink).

No comment on the grammatical mistake (which is dubious at best).

I was a bit over the line in calling you a thief directly. In many games, a players ID is their only real proof of purchase, and I would definitely talk to one of the producers or an organizer if I caught someone who had cut mine off my mask, or taken it from my clothing, or something like that (regardless of whether or not it was my only proof of purchase). To me, stealing a player's ID is really crossing the line. Although it is part of the game, and maybe a prop, I still think it's personal property.
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:09 PM #56
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LOL..good post 10-Shot, but you can't be surprised that the glue eaters came after you can you? LCD's never get this or anything else that makes the game very interesting.

As for the GSRP rule about the grey area............................ You're welcome!
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:56 PM #57
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Krieger: The hilarious part was last year was the first year I didn't play for the germans and joined up with the french. Without any help from me the mob did what they did and people still go "dang 10-shot!" even though I dicked up my leg first day and was bassically out of commision.

Then again Barney and RT's raiders pwned their section of the beach after apparently laying their guns down

Argel: No you weren't the one then

"To me, stealing a player's ID is really crossing the line. Although it is part of the game, and maybe a prop, I still think it's personal property."

You really need to be careful in seperating the game from real life though. Deciding that "prop X," regardless of what it is, personally belongs to you is a very dangerous proposition. This personal attachment to the game whether it be to getting a mission done, holding a prop, or straight out winning is what leads to problem after problem on the field.


TB: I was suprised more by who and how than the fact I got came after. I expected a decent lively debate in the forum instead of the general slop that people toss back and forth at each other. Not in my wildest dreams did I expect what reponse did occur largely over this forum post.

I've always believed that the reason the game declines is because skills and lessons from the past generation arn't handed down to the next. If just one kid, who would have became another run of the mill run and gun glue eater, reads this thread and goes to do what I've done than it's worth it. All the people that taught me this stuff and helped me along the way are for a large part either gone or play far less frequently at the field.

I obviously can't do it anymore, hell talk about it and look what happens, so it's time for the next guy down the line to pick it up. I've seen people revel in the simplest of moves done by others going "brilliant!" and the lowering of the standard of what used to be seen greatly bothers me. I refuse to let the skills I've tried to foster in this article, done within the bloody rules, go entirely to waste just because they are a danger to the newly established way of things.

EDIT:

Because quasi vauge humor has lead to issues before,
1. Barney and RT's raiders did not lay down their guns, I know, I saw them own the section of the beach they fought at.
2. That section of the beach was last to fall
3. Barney always plays hard and honorably and I was trying to make fun of the ridiculousnes of acusations against this that have been made.
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Old 12-21-2007, 10:21 PM #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10-shot kid View Post
Krieger: The hilarious part was last year was the first year I didn't play for the germans and joined up with the french. Without any help from me the mob did what they did and people still go "dang 10-shot!" even though I dicked up my leg first day and was bassically out of commision.

Then again Barney and RT's raiders pwned their section of the beach after apparently laying their guns down

Argel: No you weren't the one then

"To me, stealing a player's ID is really crossing the line. Although it is part of the game, and maybe a prop, I still think it's personal property."

You really need to be careful in seperating the game from real life though. Deciding that "prop X," regardless of what it is, personally belongs to you is a very dangerous proposition. This personal attachment to the game whether it be to getting a mission done, holding a prop, or straight out winning is what leads to problem after problem on the field.


TB: I was suprised more by who and how than the fact I got came after. I expected a decent lively debate in the forum instead of the general slop that people toss back and forth at each other. Not in my wildest dreams did I expect what reponse did occur largely over this forum post.

I've always believed that the reason the game declines is because skills and lessons from the past generation arn't handed down to the next. If just one kid, who would have became another run of the mill run and gun glue eater, reads this thread and goes to do what I've done than it's worth it. All the people that taught me this stuff and helped me along the way are for a large part either gone or play far less frequently at the field.

I obviously can't do it anymore, hell talk about it and look what happens, so it's time for the next guy down the line to pick it up. I've seen people revel in the simplest of moves done by others going "brilliant!" and the lowering of the standard of what used to be seen greatly bothers me. I refuse to let the skills I've tried to foster in this article, done within the bloody rules, go entirely to waste just because they are a danger to the newly established way of things.
Actually that part of the beach was the last to be taken. And you hurting your leg sucked. You was playing a big role for me at that time before that happen.

I was taught by the same people that you say taught you. I know who you're talking about and you know I know. The game is dumb down. Not many places left to do that kind of stuff. That's why I had you shot on site at the Viper Extravaganza game. You just laughed and walked off since you and I know. Also when the arguing was going on at the same game with TB and others. I didn't get involved because I understood what was going on. It was the letter of the rule (grey or not). I just walked off and reinserted. Viper confirmed it; people were pissed; and Doug and I went back to commanding and running our game. A tactic I knew that Doug learned.
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Old 12-21-2007, 10:48 PM #59
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And where is Doc John and the Illuminati when you need them? 3/4 of the people that play these days wouldn't ever play the scenario games of old. And I for one am pretty darn sad for that.
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Old 12-21-2007, 11:26 PM #60
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saying that things used to be different or used to be a certain way and your holding on to it doesnt make it acceptable. Bread used to be a nickel, gas used to be under a $1, and it was legal to carry a six shooter on your hip and school playground fights evolved into shoot outs.
to some speedballers playing on until the ref pulls you is the way you play a game. its what he was taught and its what he can get away with but i doesnt make it ok.
spys need rules. my take on it is spys dont think any rule applies to them if they can manipulate the grey area to make it sound legal, kind of like a lawyer. and like lawyers some are good and some are "scumbags".
working that grey area is one thing but just like a drug the grey becomes addictive and when it turns to actually being black or white its ignored and pushed anyways.
im all for holding on old school because we wouldnt be here today without it but some things fell to the way side for a reason. we dont wear safety glasses anymore we wear full face masks and its for a reason.
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Old 12-21-2007, 11:31 PM #61
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It fell by the wayside because 'tactical shooters' started to become more in charge of things and the LCD's took over. You know the glue eaters that want everyone to wear tape so that they know who to shoot. Or you must have a marker and that marker must have a hopper and that hopper must have the custom hopper cover that is one color or the other on it.

Another reason why role play is dead in a lot of places...... you're welcome.

Just because new people come in and say things should be different doesn't mean that they need to be. Because I am all about some 'Old Testament' God, myself.

And scenario is a thinking man's game, not the SPPL or TTPL with some missions and a dash of 'role-playing' thrown in.
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Old 12-21-2007, 11:59 PM #62
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“get refs angry”

-Any player that intentionally attempts to get a reff “angry” should be ejected from the game immediately. Reffs are there for your safety and to ensure fair play, not to influence the game.

“Have a pair of sissors up your sleeve in a non assuming way. Someone will always either leave their entire player pack of ID card out in the open. A popular thing is to use the zip tie to secure the ID card onto the mask and then leave it, that's what the sissors are for. Steal the ID card whatever way possible.”

-Stealing is stealing kid. On the other hand, if you find an ID card on the field while playing and use it to infiltrate the opposing team, then good for you. If an ID card is found on the field while playing, then yes, it would be considered of prop like nature. But what you are saying is what it is; it is intentionally stealing of ones personal property. Therefore, said ID card would not be in play and thus void of use during the game.

“The final way is to use an old ID/bracelet set. This of course takes time and effort as not only do you have to play at all the old games you have to save your stuff. Keep the nondated side out and the inside either secured to your mask VIA zip tie or cig pack via celephane.”

-This is no different than using illegal game tape, i.e., taping yourself.

“And just for completions sake the final way to pull it off is to get dual registrations. This can cost an extra 35-50 dollars though so it's up to you. Make sure to wear casual clothes to the first and your 1st outfit to the second pickup. I've never done this because I find it unsportsmanlike.”

-That’s because it is un-sportsman and unprofessional. No producer would allow this, and if caught would promptly pend a permanent band from that producers games.

“jamming barrels into facemasks”

-This too is grounds to be ejected from a game.
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Old 12-22-2007, 12:17 AM #63
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Location: Downstate NY
"saying that things used to be different or used to be a certain way and your holding on to it doesnt make it acceptable." (13th)

agreed, and that's not the reason I think the removal of role play is bad. If I thought everything old school was automatically great I wouldn't be playing semi

"my take on it is spys dont think any rule applies to them if they can manipulate the grey area to make it sound legal, kind of like a lawyer. and like lawyers some are good and some are "scumbags"."

rules do apply, figuring out how rules are badly written and using it to ones advantage is good. Should TB go out when someone barrel tags him at a viper game and doesn't say "barrle tag?" no.

You want to hear how rules are weak and lame? Lets go over out of bounds rules and props.

I am running away from you and your team with a prop. I'm slower than you and know in less than a minte I'm done. I toss the prop out of bounds so that neither you or I can have it. Is it against the rules for me to do that? At the majority of big scenarios I've gone to there is no rule against it. Is it a grey area? No, anything that goes out of bounds is out of play and it's not like I can pause the game to ask the game director.

Is it right, within the spirit of the game, for the ref to get the prop and put it back in play? By most rule books absolutly not as all props have to go back to central command that are taken out of play. I'd bet a fiver the majority of the group rallying in the same manner you are against roleplaying, or just playing scenario with your head, would take it. I've sorta seen it done at a bunch of big events, not by your team though.

How about this though. Lets say I have props out of bounds by my base so they can't be jacked tyrell corp. style at the last ION. Those things are supposed to be reallocated immedietly per GSRB right? Which is what I thought all the teams kept telling me where the rules for ION. But the rule is not enforced and somehow the tyrell players around those props had them latter.

Same thing happens with base chaches. Oh yes I know how generalls frequently hide their entire prop cache in the base refs back pack, taking them out of play, until they choose to have them back in play. That's cool though right? I've never heard a single high notority team, a couple of which hate me, WATCHING these practices take place not complain about them. Totally against the rules, totally cheating, not a word. Ref allowed it so it's cool though right?

But the minute someone figures out how to do something creative within the rules be it my little scum bag guide here, or TB's decried antics, or JF's inventive barrle usage (albiet big game dealy-o) they must be cheating SOBs that ought to be exiled ASAP. Not only does this guide respect selectivly enforced rules, which is sorta the same as cheating IMHO, it respects all the rules if applied correctly with the right modifications. The worst thing it does is let the individual make a diffrence, which will always be penny-anti teams greatest fear.

NOTE: XIII is not a "penny anti" team to me, I think you guys are good personally. This response, albiet a reply to your words, was to the general populace.

EDIT:

Silentscope:

"Any player that intentionally attempts to get a reff “angry” should be ejected from the game immediately. Reffs are there for your safety and to ensure fair play, not to influence the game."

So is it ok for the general to check with a referee if you just did a mission? It is right? But it's not ok for me to manipulate information getting to a ref, in a way that doesn't violate any rules, so that the general gets manipulated information. Explain to me how you think that's ok.

"Stealing is stealing kid. On the other hand, if you find an ID card on the field while playing and use it to infiltrate the opposing team, then good for you. If an ID card is found on the field while playing, then yes, it would be considered of prop like nature. But what you are saying is what it is; it is intentionally stealing of ones personal property. Therefore, said ID card would not be in play and thus void of use during the game."

This has already been gone over, go up, read, comprehend. On the other hand btw if you took someones team identifier that was also proof of payment that you found on the ground and kept it without making sure they got a knew one you just commited larceny. Congrats.

"This is no different than using illegal game tape, i.e., taping yourself."

At every single game in the U.S. right? lol. Your hilarious. "It's hot in Africa so it can't be cold here!" is an amussing arguement.

"That’s because it is un-sportsman and unprofessional. No producer would allow this, and if caught would promptly pend a permanent band from that producers games."

like how viper would nail people for stealing game id's right? You'd be amazingly suprised at the number of games that don't have a rule against this.


Finally, don't quote me out of context like that last quote there. It shows both weak charecter and arguement. cheers.
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Last edited by 10-shot kid : 12-22-2007 at 12:29 AM.
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