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Old 11-19-2007, 08:31 PM #22
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we dont have much of a problem at Liberty, if you just keep it out of sight or many RA's are cool with allowing us to clean them and store them in our rooms as long as they are not used in the rooms
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:38 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skillet42565 View Post

Why not just keep them in the trunk of the car or something? .
we cant, its a private school and therefore parking spaces are private which gives them the right to search our cars as well
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:42 PM #24
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we are private and havent had problems like you man....sorry to hear about this...good luck figuring it all out though
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Old 11-19-2007, 09:08 PM #25
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Originally Posted by JTeigs10 View Post
RA's searched your players bags??? Did the players give them permission??? I would threaten legal action if I were you guys.

Did the RAs have probable cause to search the players personal belongings??

If not I would go find a copy of the Bill of Rights and read Amendment IV.... maybe nail a copy of it to said RAs doors...

Im an RA at my university and BS like that would never be allowed...
I won't flame you for ignorance of the law, but your 4th amendment claim is inexistent. If its a state school, your on state property and they've got the right to search w/o cause, same as when you're in a public high school. If you're at a private school, the school owns the property and is (usually) not subject to the same constitutional scrutiny.

As far as the cars go, they (the university) need to be careful, just because the cars are on private property doesn't mean they can search them. If they could, there would be no protection from the searches of your car when it was parked anywhere private.

For them to be able to expell you, they should have to have some sort of provision in the university bylaws and/or student code of conduct which specifically defines air powered equipment as "weapons"

If you really wanna f* with them (assuming the police have been involved in some way), threaten a 42 USC ß1983 suit. If they don;t **** their pants they should at least leave you alone for a little bit
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Old 11-19-2007, 10:04 PM #26
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We are a private school too. I would never allow anyone to search my car for no reason, and it better be a good one. We all have rights no matter what the school likes to say.
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Old 11-19-2007, 10:32 PM #27
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Originally Posted by tystang2001 View Post
We are a private school too. I would never allow anyone to search my car for no reason, and it better be a good one. We all have rights no matter what the school likes to say.
right, but they have a "probable cause" to search my members' vehicles. if you remember from what i posted initially, the unwritten agreement I had with the security department was that as long as I give them updated lists of current members of the club that live on campus and have markers, that we could store them in our rooms dissassembled.

Now that they deny this agreement, they dont have to uphold thier end of the bargain BUT, they still have the lists of all of my members with guns. So they can just use that evidence against us to search all of our personal belongings that are physically on campus.

just wanted to clarify that since a few people are confused about the whole privacy thing.
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Old 11-19-2007, 10:56 PM #28
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That is absolutely ridiculous.

Can you go to the school board and fight this? good luck wherever it goes from here, but you seem to have an uphill battle of your hands.

Our school basically leaves it as keep it out of sight - they don't want us running around dryfiring our markers, but as long as we keep them put away nobody truly cares, especially if you have an on-campus apartment (like myself and a few other players).
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:24 PM #29
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Originally Posted by danbob1088 View Post

Can you go to the school board and fight this? good luck wherever it goes from here, but you seem to have an uphill battle of your hands
yes, that is what we are doing. We are going to setup a meeting next week with the chief of security and the dean of students and discuss the issue.

and thanks for the good luck wishes...we'll need it
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Old 11-20-2007, 12:09 AM #30
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Originally Posted by pa1ntball 56 View Post
i know at our school you sign on your housing agreement that the RA or a university official can search anything in the room at any time they want........
WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! by signing an agreement you essentially are making a lease with the university for the room. ra's are there for safety and you and the dorm. if they see illegal activities they can enter, or if you have a safety violation. but if they enter without your permission without cause and find something, any charge could (and should) be thrown out.

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Originally Posted by TJ. View Post
they thought they had paintball guns, that is the cause of the search, it is not an illegal search.

your school probably considers paintball guns as weapons, like almost every school. Even schools with the "dont ask dont tell policy" still consider them weapons and if there ever is a problem, that person will be chaged with weapon charges and everyone else will get in trouble.

you need to show them the agreement you previously had, and if it holds, you can get the expulsion and weapon charges dropped, but you still wont be able to keep them on campus.
but if this thought came from this supposed agreements then it is still illegal search and seizure, and if they had nothing exposed and no school safety violations and they entered without following due process of the law, and once agian, any charges should be thrown out.


its called a technicality people, and our justice system feeds on them.

private school or not, your room is still considered your property since you are paying for it, most judges will see it as you renting it from the university thus your property.

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Old 11-20-2007, 09:22 AM #31
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WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! by signing an agreement you essentially are making a lease with the university for the room. ra's are there for safety and you and the dorm. if they see illegal activities they can enter, or if you have a safety violation. but if they enter without your permission without cause and find something, any charge could (and should) be thrown out.

but if this thought came from this supposed agreements then it is still illegal search and seizure, and if they had nothing exposed and no school safety violations and they entered without following due process of the law, and once agian, any charges should be thrown out.


its called a technicality people, and our justice system feeds on them.

private school or not, your room is still considered your property since you are paying for it, most judges will see it as you renting it from the university thus your property.
WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! (sorry, couldn't resist)
landlord tenant law is usually not applied to a university-to-student housing relationship. The university purchases or leases land from either the state or from a private entity or individual (depending on if it is a public or private school), thus making the state the leaseholder of the property. your room is considered a sub-lease and the original lessor (the university, or any official acting on behalf thereof) can re-enter at anytime for suspected violations of the rental agreement. That violation here is presumably possession of a weapon, since they told the school who all had them. The university is thus within its rights not only to enter the room, but also to terminate the lease(s) of the individual(s) in violation.

It works the same way for expulsion based on possession of drugs or for any other reason they might want to kick someone out of student housing. Student has sublease, Lessor (person you sub-lease from) has control over terms and conditions of sublease. You violate terms, they have cause to kick you out.

Further, Universities, whether private or public, operate as SCHOOLS and have the same privileges and immunities as all other schools. This includes a lowered burden to search (justifiable suspicion, usually) anything on their property.

A side note: in order for them to search your trunk, they have to get you to open your trunk. You are within your rights to refuse consent to search the trunk of your car without probable cause.... but you'll probably just piss off whoever is in charge, who will then go to the university's lawyer, who writes up a request for a warrant, which a judge grants, and then your car gets searched anyway. BUT you will have bought yourself a day or two to find somewhere else to hide your gear
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Old 11-20-2007, 12:41 PM #32
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why are they giving you guys so much trouble. i dont understand why they would care if you guys didnt do something wrong or make it really obovious that you had paintball guns in the dorms. If it isnt a problem why would they all the sudden start cracking down on you guys.
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Old 11-20-2007, 01:12 PM #33
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why are they giving you guys so much trouble. i dont understand why they would care if you guys didnt do something wrong or make it really obovious that you had paintball guns in the dorms. If it isnt a problem why would they all the sudden start cracking down on you guys.
wish i knew the answer to that one...
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Old 11-20-2007, 05:14 PM #34
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Thumbs up applicable FL law(s) and statute(s)

ok here's some basic stuff that will help.

(1) http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...le=26&sec=5845
definition according to US law of "weapon" - basically, for it to legally be a weapon, it has to fire by use of explosive.

(2)http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/ind...3ESection%2017
FL statute dealing w/ weapons to minors, doesn't define weapons, so (1)'s definition of "weapon" will be sufficient

(3) http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/ind...0/titl0790.htm
FL specific weapons statute

(4) other info:
(a) University(s) have the right to regulate student conduct and take appropriate discretionary action against those who violate (see: Center for Participation Ed. v. Marshall, 337 F.Supp. 126)
(b) Students have no constitutional right to attend a university regardless of public or private if conduct violates stated university policy (see: 1966 Op.Atty.Gen., 066-30, March 23, 1966)
(c)Denial of punishment to some, but not all, students who violate identical parts of university code does not violate rights of students punished. (see: Center for Participation Ed. v. Marshall, 337 F.Supp. 126) [yes i realize that's the same case, but it's a different legal point so I split them up]
(d) university required to give students a hearing before expulsion for misconduct (see: Woody v. Burns 188 So.2d 56)
(e) being in possession of firearm does not require any specific intent to use (see: U.S. v. Thomas, 242 F.3d 1028)
(f) firearms only considered illegally concealed when concealed on the body of the person (see: U.S. v. Machado 804 F.2d 1537)
(g) any weapon that shoots more than one shot by single function of trigger is a machine gun (see: U.S. v. Aguilar-Espinosa 57 F.Supp.2d 1329)***
(h) it is lawful to keep a firearm in a vehicle if it is not "accessible for immediate use (meaning there is no ammunition in the vehicle) - (see: Ashley v. State [of FL] 619 So.2d 294)
(i) it is not unlawful for persons to keep firearms at home or place of business (see: state v. anton 700 So.2d 743) **note, I personally doubt this is applicable to campus residence, BUT there is no existing case in FL which exempts university housing** see below at (j)
(j) allowance of weapons at home or office is dependent upon it not being unlawful to possess them there (suggests that school's will be allowed to bar possession of weapons) (see: Collins v. State [of FL] 475 So.2d 968
*(k)* a BB gun is not a firearm (see: Mitchell v. State 698 So.2d 555)
(L) dispensive devices which fire non-lethal liquids or gases are not, under FL statutes, prohibited "arms" or "deadly weapons" (see: Op.Atty.Gen., 068-103, Sept. 23, 1968)

(5) summation:
- there is no law in FL which could allow the conclusion that paintball guns are weapons
- the University may, if it so chooses, selectively punish members of the club without punishing all members
- the university has discretion over whether to search your vehicle with some limitations (still looking into this)


***note, weapon is synonymus with firearm, and is defined as 'using explosive to fire projectile(s)', so markers still don't fall into this category


hope this is helpful.
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Old 11-20-2007, 05:43 PM #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NTexPaintballFounder View Post
ok here's some basic stuff that will help.

(1) http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...le=26&sec=5845
definition according to US law of "weapon" - basically, for it to legally be a weapon, it has to fire by use of explosive.

(2)http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/ind...3ESection%2017
FL statute dealing w/ weapons to minors, doesn't define weapons, so (1)'s definition of "weapon" will be sufficient

(3) http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/ind...0/titl0790.htm
FL specific weapons statute

(4) other info:
(a) University(s) have the right to regulate student conduct and take appropriate discretionary action against those who violate (see: Center for Participation Ed. v. Marshall, 337 F.Supp. 126)
(b) Students have no constitutional right to attend a university regardless of public or private if conduct violates stated university policy (see: 1966 Op.Atty.Gen., 066-30, March 23, 1966)
(c)Denial of punishment to some, but not all, students who violate identical parts of university code does not violate rights of students punished. (see: Center for Participation Ed. v. Marshall, 337 F.Supp. 126) [yes i realize that's the same case, but it's a different legal point so I split them up]
(d) university required to give students a hearing before expulsion for misconduct (see: Woody v. Burns 188 So.2d 56)
(e) being in possession of firearm does not require any specific intent to use (see: U.S. v. Thomas, 242 F.3d 1028)
(f) firearms only considered illegally concealed when concealed on the body of the person (see: U.S. v. Machado 804 F.2d 1537)
(g) any weapon that shoots more than one shot by single function of trigger is a machine gun (see: U.S. v. Aguilar-Espinosa 57 F.Supp.2d 1329)***
(h) it is lawful to keep a firearm in a vehicle if it is not "accessible for immediate use (meaning there is no ammunition in the vehicle) - (see: Ashley v. State [of FL] 619 So.2d 294)
(i) it is not unlawful for persons to keep firearms at home or place of business (see: state v. anton 700 So.2d 743) **note, I personally doubt this is applicable to campus residence, BUT there is no existing case in FL which exempts university housing** see below at (j)
(j) allowance of weapons at home or office is dependent upon it not being unlawful to possess them there (suggests that school's will be allowed to bar possession of weapons) (see: Collins v. State [of FL] 475 So.2d 968
*(k)* a BB gun is not a firearm (see: Mitchell v. State 698 So.2d 555)
(L) dispensive devices which fire non-lethal liquids or gases are not, under FL statutes, prohibited "arms" or "deadly weapons" (see: Op.Atty.Gen., 068-103, Sept. 23, 1968)

(5) summation:
- there is no law in FL which could allow the conclusion that paintball guns are weapons
- the University may, if it so chooses, selectively punish members of the club without punishing all members
- the university has discretion over whether to search your vehicle with some limitations (still looking into this)


***note, weapon is synonymus with firearm, and is defined as 'using explosive to fire projectile(s)', so markers still don't fall into this category


hope this is helpful.
I did some research on Westlaw recently about the status of paintball guns and their potential as being recognized as firearms. Obviously it's still a gray area, but it seems like courts lean more towards viewing them as dangerous weapons than not.
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Old 11-20-2007, 05:51 PM #36
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straight out of the housing policy

Quote:
4. A search of a student’s residence pursuant to an investigation intended to result in disciplinary action may be performed only with the prior approval of the Associate Provost for Student Affairs/Dean of Students or designee, in the form of an internal university search/inspection authorization. Individuals seeking authorization to do a search must clearly specify the reasons, objectives and information sought to the Associate Provost for Student Affairs/Dean of Students or designee before the approval being granted. Students, like all other citizens, are liable to search by authorized law enforcement officials after presentation of a court order or duly ordered search warrant to the Associate Provost for Student Affairs/Dean of Students or that person’s designee.
Quote:
Code of Conduct / Grounds for disciplinary action
7. Weapons—Unauthorized use, possession or storage of any weapon or explosive material, including, but not limited to, fireworks, firearms, air guns, paint pellet guns, knives, ammunition, martial arts weapons or bombs on university premises or at university sponsored activities.
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Old 11-20-2007, 08:23 PM #37
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2. Members of the Residence Life staff and security personnel are permitted to enter a student’s residence without obtaining the student’s consent when there is evidence of violent behavior, illness or injury, disorderly behavior or activity that is a violation of university policy or disturbs the neighboring living environment.
also straight out of the student code. selectively quoting the student code does't prove $h*t
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Old 11-20-2007, 08:29 PM #38
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here are all the rules and regs that even remotely apply to us...
Quote:
Florida Tech Student Hanbook
Fireworks, Weapons and Explosives
The use or possession of fireworks, dangerous chemicals, explosive materials, dangerous devices capable of casting a projectile (firearms, BB/pellet guns, paintball guns, etc.), ammunition, bows and arrows, swords or other lethal weapons is prohibited. Other objects may be declared as weapons, depending on the context in which they are used.

Room Entry
The university reserves the right to search a studentís room, vehicle or person for administrative, safety and regulatory purposes. The university exercises this right only under specific circumstances. University students enjoy the private use of their rooms. Under normal circumstances, entry to a studentís residence is permitted only with the consent of an occupant of the residence. The following conditions qualify for an exception to this general policy:
1. Members of the Residence Life staff, facilities management or personnel contracted to perform related work may enter a studentís room for the purposes listed below:
a. Routine maintenance, health and safety inspections, including, but not limited to, inspections of fire/safety devices and equipment, break or end of semester inspections, etc.
b. Facilities management emergencies, maintenance and repairs.
c. Servicing of telecommunications cable, network lines and equipment.
2. Members of the Residence Life staff and security personnel are permitted to enter a studentís residence without obtaining the studentís consent when there is evidence of violent behavior, illness or injury, disorderly behavior or activity that is a violation of university policy or disturbs the neighboring living environment.
3. Members of the Residence Life staff and security personnel are permitted to enter a studentís residence without obtaining the studentís consent for purposes of evacuating the building during a fire alarm, fire or other emergency.
4. A search of a studentís residence pursuant to an investigation intended to result in disciplinary action may be performed only with the prior approval of the Associate Provost for Student Affairs/Dean of Students or designee, in the form of an internal university search/inspection authorization. Individuals seeking authorization to do a search must clearly specify the reasons, objectives and information sought to the Associate Provost
for Student Affairs/Dean of Students or designee before the approval being granted. Students, like all other citizens, are liable to search by authorized law enforcement officials after presentation of a court order or duly ordered search warrant to the Associate Provost for Student Affairs/Dean of Students or that personís designee.
Note: Plain-view violations of university regulations that may be observed by university personnel entering
a studentís residence under these guidelines are subject to university disciplinary action.

Code of Conduct / Grounds for disciplinary action
7.WeaponsóUnauthorized use, possession or storage of any weapon or explosive material, including, but not limited to, fireworks, firearms, air guns, paint pellet guns, knives, ammunition, martial arts weapons or bombs on university premises or at university sponsored activities.


Disciplinary Issues for Student Organizations or Groups
Groups and/or student organizations sanctioned or recognized by the university are subject to the same regulations and procedures as individual students. Violation of the University Code of Conduct by these groups falls under the jurisdiction of the student disciplinary system. Any group charged with violating the University Code of Conduct should have the right to be represented by their president (or highest-ranking elected officer) at any university disciplinary hearing.
Group misconduct need not be officially approved by the entire membership to be considered grounds for possible disciplinary action against the group. There is no minimum number of group members who must be involved in an incident before disciplinary action may be taken against the entire group. An appropriate test to determine whether a group may be held accountable for the conduct of individuals is to ask whether it is likely that the individuals would have been involved in the incident if they were not members of the group or if, by group action, the incident was encouraged, fostered or might have been prevented. In cases where a group or organization faces disciplinary action, each person participating in a violation may also be charged on an individual basis.
Student organizations found in violation of university policy are subject to a maximum sanction of termination of recognition by the university or any appropriate lesser sanction. Lesser sanctions include, but are not limited to, probation, restriction or suspension of the privilege to sponsor programs or events, loss of university funding, removal of officers, restitution for damages, loss of facilities use, fines or a written disciplinary warning. Sanctions that suspend or limit the privileges of a group or organization shall have a set time of duration, after which full privileges may be restored following a meeting with the Dean of Students or designee.
Student organizations have the right to appeal any disciplinary sanctions as outlined in the University Code of Conduct.

Note: Not withstanding the above, fraternities and sororities may be subject to disciplinary action by the IFC, the
Panhellenic Council or their inter/national governing bodies.
exFounder, I sent TJ a copy of this earlier today so he already knew about that part.
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Old 11-20-2007, 11:03 PM #39
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also straight out of the student code. selectively quoting the student code does't prove $h*t
yes... selective quoting doesn't prove ****... and maybe if you quoted my earlier posts, you would realize i said they CAN go into rooms
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Old 11-21-2007, 07:11 AM #40
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With all of this legal discussion, remember the following:

Your goal is to have your club be around for a while. In order for that to happen, you need to establish a good relationship with your administration. Now, depending on your administration that can be either very easy or very hard to do. And yes, it sucks that they basically hold most of the cards with regards to funding, recognition with the school, access to facilities etc but that's the way it works. Threatening the school should generally be a LAST option when EVERY other single option has been tried and exhausted. Nothing sours a relationship like threatening to sue.

Now, in your particular case, there needs to be a reason that they changed their minds about having equipment on campus even if it's a irrational reason like "All paintball = bad". First, try to figure out a) who exactly made the decision and b) exactly what their reasons were for making it. That will better prepare you for when you actually have to counter their points with your reasons as to why it should be ok.

Also, Universities/Colleges, even small private ones, have a lot of people administering them. Keep asking/looking/talking till you find some one sympathetic to your cause. Try talking to any alumni you know as well. Someone's parents that went to your school that are big time alumni can help a lot. It doesn't even need to be one of your club members. My dad went to Penn State(I went to Rutgers) and I asked him to call the school on behalf of their club when they were having issues. Schools tend to listen to people over 30 more often than they listen to students.
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Old 11-21-2007, 07:56 AM #41
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^ qft.

also, attempting to bring a lawsuit against the school is going to be expensive and time consuming, and a generally terrible experience for everyone
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Old 11-21-2007, 12:39 PM #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt1787 View Post
WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! by signing an agreement you essentially are making a lease with the university for the room. ra's are there for safety and you and the dorm. if they see illegal activities they can enter, or if you have a safety violation. but if they enter without your permission without cause and find something, any charge could (and should) be thrown out.
read the fine print next time you move into a dorm, cause besides being in there that we can not have airsoft/paintball guns it says that any suspicion of any violated policy is just cause to have a room searched

as well as an assembled paintball gun in the city of philadelphia is a consealed weapon just like airsoft guns.... as we have experenced first hand.
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