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Old 11-15-2007, 02:00 AM #1
jtx2003
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Scenario Intelligent Discussion - Physical Contact

After talk with many users here in the Scenario/Big Game Section... it's been decided that a thread was needed so that you the user can voice your opinions about Scenario Ball and Fields without fear of going Off Topic and your posts Deleted.

I can not stress enough that this is for INTELLIGENT Conversation only. There will be zero tolerance for Flamming, Trolling, Instigating, and Bashing. If you can not be nice then you are not welcome here. RACISM will not be tolerated. Leave the pictures out of here.... They will be considered spam and your post removed UNLESS this photo is directly related to the subject (ie: a paintball lodged in a tree).

If you have a complaint/gripe/rant about a specific subject please share your thoughts but do so in a RESPECTFUL manner or it could be misinterpeted as a flame.

Please keep in mind of the RULES and PBNation's TERMS OF SERVICE.

Post away!
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Old 11-15-2007, 02:40 AM #2
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This is for quality debates and discussions.
This is about what is best for the sport.
This is not for past personal issues.

For everyone that calls some haters, you are the exact thing, a superfan.

IMO the most important thing we need to discuss:
GAME SAFETY.

Everything else should be secondary to the overall safety of all persons.
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Old 11-15-2007, 01:46 PM #3
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So is there where we can discuss the current incarnation of MXS and the lies that have been told by Diane and the proof that some have that a registered sex offender is still managing a major scenario company? Or will this be deleted here as well?
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Old 11-15-2007, 02:14 PM #4
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Originally Posted by THE-TB View Post
So is there where we can discuss the current incarnation of MXS and the lies that have been told by Diane and the proof that some have that a registered sex offender is still managing a major scenario company? Or will this be deleted here as well?
You Friggen KILL me!
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Old 11-15-2007, 02:21 PM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE-TB View Post
So is there where we can discuss the current incarnation of MXS and the lies that have been told by Diane and the proof that some have that a registered sex offender is still managing a major scenario company? Or will this be deleted here as well?
I don't see why not, but I cannot say for certain as I know longer volunteer as a mod. However, if it is going to be the same stuff that everyone already knows about I wouldn't bother. Personally I am a tad bit tired of hearing the same ****, and I am not the only one. If there is something really new regarding the magic bunker incident I am all ears. I do not think there are many people that are not aware of what transpired. But you would really have to check with the admins on whether they want this tragic ordeal reposted for the 20th time.
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Old 11-15-2007, 02:54 PM #6
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It isn't that, the other stuff was about the court case and such. This is more about the fact that he is now a registered sex offender and if you look back at the previous discussion the people who came out and defended him and said that because he wasn't it was false. And then they used Diane's letter where she said he was no longer involved in the company. There is legal proof that this is not the case. That he is still a managing member of the company. Is that not something people need to know? I mean we had 20,000 pages of Smart Parts hate with conjecture and rumor, and here we have something legal and people want to bury it or accuse me of beating a dead horse. Give me a break.

And how is it that I figgen kill you?
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:01 PM #7
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I personally think it is important that what is going on with MXS be put shown in the public light. I find it disgusting that people tout paintball as a family game and then when someone points out something that may potentially harm someones family they are attacked for it. some of you guys should be ****ing ashamed of your selves.
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:16 PM #8
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While we are waiting to hear about the MXS soap opera, let's discuss what is really foremost on a lot of players minds, safety at events, operators responsibilites and players responsibilities. It is often the second aspect which is most overlooked, and usually the one that leads to problems when the operator hasn't planned for your stupidity.

First and foremost it isn't the field operators job to give there paint to the players for twenty dollars a case because that's what they pay for it. This isn't communist China. Promotors and field owners are trying to make a living and paint sales not only cover insurance premiums, refs,field mortgages, game operation cost, but also feed him or her and their family. Unfortunately all those cost are expensive and the paint and admission prices are what they are in relation to cost and expenditures of any given field. If it cost in your opinion too much to play at any given field then play somewheres else. If enough people stay away a operator may look at ways to save players some money, or they may not, ultimately it is their decisions. That all being said when a player does spend his money with an operator they have purchased some security in having a right to expect things are being done not only to entertain,but protect them. It is an operators responsibilty to have enough REFS with knowledge of the rules of play and safety guidelines to adequately enforce gameplay rules and safe play rules. The number of refs should be in proper ratio to players attending. Some insurance policies dictate a specific ratio of 1:20, 1:10 etc. but when the numbers of players increase these base guidelines provided go out the window, as the size of any large crowd dictates that you have need for more refs to maintain control. We should never be put into a situation where 75 refs are watching 4000+ people. A ref to player ratio of 1 : 53.3 players. That is unacceptable, and unsafe. Why? because if you factor in a 10 percent stupidty figure you have approx. 400 idiots in the crowd who have to be watched out for with scrutiny among the othe 3600 odd players, and unfortunately the 400 idiots don't introduce themselves to staff that way. They hide in the crowd and shoot re-balls, or re-insert from out of bounds, in buildings turning up velocity, the list goes on and on.
You also have an expectation for your money spent that the operator will have first responders on standby or on staff to take care of you should you become injurued while in play. Why? Because the first moments following an injury are often the most critical to your recovery, or the prevention of further damage. Paintball fields are typically in rural or remote areas and the longer it takes to receive proper first aid could mean the difference between a short emergency room visit and a long hospital stay.
Next on the list, you have the right to demand a fair game. Games which aren't having rule changes on the fly. Games which have a clear concise rulebook which is enforced. Games where central command or the game coordinator isn't throwing out make up missions to help a trailing team at the expense of the leading team. While the game may not be a sport to some and it may not be little theater to others, it is important to all the players, and guess what, they all came to see it played evenly with winners and losers. Yes, losers. This is still a game and you can't have one without the other. Not everybody deserves a trophy or i'm special sticker, and the paintball field is still one of those places where they aren't expected and shouldn't be needed.
Still with me? Good.
Now let's look at players responsibilities.
You payed your money and now you want to take your chances. Just because you payed doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want. The customer is not always right. You are expected to know the rules of the road and know them well, or ask questions of someone who does. Do you know how many games I personally have been to where I see someone walking around with no barrel bag and when I have told them to put one on the look at me and go "huh?" , " "what's that?", or the perennial " I don't have one."
It is your responsibility to have the proper equipment to maintain your own on and off field safety. This list includes:

Mask, with good, clean, undamged lenses. Lenses have expiration dates. Replace accordingly. No one is going to miss your eyes more than you.

Barrel condom. They come with most of todays markers, or can be bought at most fields or pro shops for the nominal fee of 5 dollars. If you shoot me with a uncovered marker in a staging area expect the swiftest and surest of punishments not limited to ejection, yelling, screaming, and threats to put your head back up where it was before you came to the field that day.

Tools to adjust and maintain the posted field velocity limit. We aren't your parents, it isn't our jobs to provide you with the tools to make your marker safe. We will teach you how to set your marker, so will your manual.
READ THE MANUAL.

Boots or shoes with traction and ankle support.

Gloves, pants, and shirts which provide protection from the elements, enviroment, and other players paintball, however this is all mostly personal preference. Don't cry if you got hand mangled if you didn't wer gloves. I told you to here and you didn't listen.

So what other things are players responsibilites once you've payed your money and want to play? How about knowing and following all the rules. Games have rules. Without rules you have a mob scene. Rules are given to every player when they register at games, are verbally repeated to players before game play starts. Listen to and follow the rules. It is your job to read them, attend the saftey and rules briefing, know and follow them. Follow the speed limit posted at your field. Make sure you marker velocity complies to the limit, ask for helo if you can't get it to chrono on your own. Going on the field with an unchronoed or hot marker to me is intent to do harm and will result if I'm reffing in a ref punch and possible ejection. Players don't have many responsibilites beyond what I have posted here. For everyones sake please please please take them seriously. Your sport depends on it.

If anybody thinks I missed something or has things to add to either operators or players responsibilites than please do so.
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:47 PM #9
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Well said Well said shadawg, everything you said there is fact, its not only up to the field mangers/operators its up to us to make this game safe.
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:31 PM #10
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Well said Shadawg I also agree...
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Old 11-15-2007, 06:46 PM #11
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George, you must feel better. I am glad that you were able to get that all off your chest.

NOW, since that was the only game that was of this awful state, you will have no problems going back? I mean you spoke of Skirmish being the best field in the world until 2007. So if the issues are repaired, and they have been reported to be working on them the past two games, you will come back and play?

And the fairness of the game, I mean I heard it all. I have to say I don't believe you or anyone else about this when it comes to Skirmish. I was at the game when Monty cried for months and left the sport about he was screwed. I sat back and giggled at the tantrum. Then 2006 Stali it was the allied side that was crying of unfairness. Again I sat back watched you defend the field to the death. And ION I watched the loosing side make such a fuss, they may even be the reason the promoter was fired?
2007 was the same deal, crying at Stali, making no difference to the game. ION falls apart, even at the Generals statement being that he was beaten, and of course the safety issues, that we have to allow the field to repair.

I mean, it is only unfair when the side looses. A format chosen and even thought to be designed by the losing side made no difference. God forbid the Winning side can ever celebrate a Win?

I love you George and we all see that you were personally assaulted along the way. That is wrong. But the Paintball world is a game of sorts and we must move on.
The horse is dead. Make a difference and come back and beat some arse?

I like this thread idea and want to stay away for it is like a drug. And when we post to much about one subject for too long, we act like we are on drugs.


As for the MXS thing TB. It is horrible and I don't think you will find people to disagree. BUT that issue is gone and unless we are trying to get this man to hang himself and die, we can all agree that this is dead and move on. MXS, Sex offender, BAD...

I am not offending anyone on purpose. I am not here to start wars, as a matter of fact why am I hear?
I come to PbN to meet my old friends and plan games. Talk smack and raise the level of competition at games scheduled and make new friends to talk about this great sport.

At my Job I have to re-direct all day into a happy place. I am tired of doing it here.
(for those that know what I do for a living, knows that it does not say much for the clientele here at these stupid conversations/threads)

Now who is playing paintball this coming weekend?
PLAY BALL!
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Old 11-15-2007, 07:40 PM #12
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Well Eric if you must know, this post was not directed at Skirmish with the exception of the ref ratio. It was actually a discussion of what owners responsibilites are and what players are, and how taking ownership of your responsibilities is going to improve the sport and fields we attend.

You seem to be fixating on the fact that we lost. Losing a game does not chase me from a field. I have lost games before and came back swinging. What will undoubtedly however chase me from a field is a lack of safety, and a general lack of preperation coupled with indignation when confronted about it.
That being said I am resolute in my position that I will not be attending any event at Skirmish until I have sufficently deemed the operation to have been fixed. Comparing a 200 or 600 player game to a 4000 player event is impossible, and while I acknowledge the improvements that have been publicized I await with baited breath for this summer. I most likely will be appearing at the field to judge for myself, as I take the many pronouncements of improvement by the skirmish set with a full grain of salt.
Let it be lastly said as I see you have sprouted in all your fanboy plummage as of late, my only criticism of Skirmish and consistent criticism of Skirmish has been their safety record and lack of consistency in central command, both of which have been acknowledged to me by the field owner in personal conversations, as well as related to me conversationally by other principals of record. You may have been privy to privledged information, dare I say not as privledged as I over the past few seasons.
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Old 11-15-2007, 08:42 PM #13
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Shawdog,

That was a well written post. Thanks for taking the time to put it up here on the nation.

I hope that this thread does well and we can all stayaway from flames and personel attacks etc. I am hoping that this thread leads to some interesting and unique thoughts on the game we all love.
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Old 11-15-2007, 08:46 PM #14
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Shawdog,

That was a well written post. Thanks for taking the time to put it up here on the nation.

I hope that this thread does well and we can all stayaway from flames and personel attacks etc. I am hoping that this thread leads to some interesting and unique thoughts on the game we all love.


That is the goal of this thread.... If you see people flame and committ personal attacks... notify me ASAP and they shall be curb stomped!
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Old 11-15-2007, 08:53 PM #15
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George i completly agree with your point of view on this. I think what should be done as well as this is a sticky of some kind of field review. Maybe people that all make the same events should go out and honestly reveiw a field.

Safety is the number 1 concern when it comes to making our schedule. We go to the fields we know are safe and avoid those which are not, or were not the previous season. The last thing I will ever want to do is have to call someones parent or spouse and tell them their loved one is in the hospitol, or worse.
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Old 11-15-2007, 10:24 PM #16
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I am a new place in Illinois just starting out. just opened my fields in july07. went to scenariopaintball.com for rules. how does someone dumb like me start out a scenario theme can you get these. I know i'm stupid for asking but trying to get scenarios started in my area. trying hard to help out paintball and make it bigger in our area central Illinois.
is there a starting scenareo game for dumbies out there???:>(
really guys need all the help i can get. My shop set on 30 acrees i have a pro shop, speedball, recball woodsball,indoor restrroms.
what to make scenareo big big in outr area. Bob Elmore
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Old 11-15-2007, 11:04 PM #17
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Build some scenario themed fields. You have seen movies, build parts of the field to resemble world war one with trenchworks and the like. Vietnam can see firebases (i.e. green beret with john wayne), Iraq themes with towns, etc... Use your imagination and have fun.

After thats done, find someone to write a story for the field, start off small with a 8 hour game, or even a few 2-3 hour games to get people hooked. Build props like timebombs or nukes or whatever and just run with it.
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:28 AM #18
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George, I completely agree with you, however I believe you left something out.
Common sense. Everyone has the right, both field owners/producers and players to expect others to employ a bit of common sense. There is nothing I despise more then someone stepping onto a field on full auto and then complaining when they get yelled at for bonus balling... Or shooting hot and then complaining when they get shot multiple times.
More importantly, nothing infuriates me more then seeing people make huge mistakes in safety (producer and player alike) that could have been avoided had common sense been applied. How many of us have seen someone looking down their barrel with a mask off only to say stop that and get the response there's no hopper on it (yet clearly there's still an air tank)...

If everyone employs a little common sense, there would be less need for rules Nazi's in the world, and in the sport for that matter.
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Old 11-16-2007, 10:19 AM #19
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yes, but as many observers have pointed out, common sense is not all that common.
Adding onto the list of players responsibilities:
There is no suspension of the rules, laws, and morals of society just because you are on a paintball field. Holding a paintball gun does not entitle you to use it maliciously to do harm, nor does it give you the right to make more physical contact with another player beyond breaking paint upon them by means of your marker. Assualt is assualt no matter where you are.

Paintball and specifically scenario play has defined rules pertaining to what you must do once you are elminated. Follow them. To not follow them is cheating, and is no more tolerable on the paintball field than it is any where else. Failure to follw the most basic of the rules that cover gameplay, eventually underminds the very theoretical expressions that allow the game in the first place. Imagine 500 people playing and 400 of them not leaving when eliminated. You have to ask yourself, what is the point of having the game and rules if you aren't going to follow them? Why not lable what you have going on as a free for all, which it what it will have invariably become.
Honor the game, follow the rules, or don't bother playing.
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Old 11-16-2007, 01:04 PM #20
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My whole problem with Skirmish, and I believe I am not the only one who thinks this is; Why did it have to come to this? Like I said I have played there in the past 3 times to be exact and while I was not there for this years ION I can tell you that all of those things mentioned were happening 7 years ago and they did nothing. From the low ref count to the rampant cheating with intent to injur was all there when I have played there. They (Skirmish owners) talk about how they have made changes thats all well and good but you were aware of it now for at least 5 years and yet you failed to make changes. Certainly this was by far the worst but this has been building for sometime now and rather than nip it in the bud before it came to a head like this you chose to milk the money out of the responsible players who play the game right and not add more precautions to keep the riff raff out of the game. We all know you can't be every where at once but going into that week did you really think that 75 refs were gonna cut it? If you say yes your incompetent if you say no then it was a blatant attempt to maximize profit in the face of saftey and that needs a whole lot more than 2 smaller games to be forgiven. I love the field of Skirmish I love the Refs and the staff who I have played along side of for years now but I can not support the people who sign the checks that are either too incompitent to know how many refs are good for a large group of 4000 or blatanly tried to maximize profits in the hope that nothing "bad" would happen.
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Old 11-16-2007, 01:52 PM #21
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Everyone who played at Skirmish through the past few IONs (as the numbers began skyrocketing) should shoulder some of the blame. Yes, Skirmish as an organization failed to deal with the growing potential for a disaster until it was too late, but anyone who played at ION '06, hell even '05 knew that it was already out of control. They did or should have, we did or should have. There was inadequate player pressure coming into this year for change, and when ION brought the house of cards crashing down, everyone inside at the time gets the blame for not seeing it coming, or not working to stop it. Calling it blatant profit maximization is unfair. Who here made a big stink about the player cap going into ION 07? The waves of wipers at '05 or the reballs at '06? Everyone seemed to shrug it off as, "that's what happens sometimes". The controversies centered around rules, points and field layouts, from what I recall, and those were behind closed doors. Skirmish was delivering exactly the product we had said we wanted by playing ION '05 and '06 and not complaining about it: a gigantic game.

Well, we all paid for that mistake one way or the other. It's up to Skirmish to demonstrate they want to change. I agree that two small games is insufficient evidence that they can fix ION, but at the same time, two small games is sufficient to demonstrate intention. Will they carry mandatory chrono and hopper checks to Stalingrad and ION? We'll see. Will they cap ION at 2500-3000 people (or lower)? We'll see. I'm pretty sure they realize by now that if they don't, nobody will be back, no matter how "well" the game goes. They want to fix it because they understand what will happen if things continue the way they had been. They're not idiots, they're human like the rest of us and it's important to realize that we all made the same mistake for the past few years. It's not Skirmish's fault that I accepted the general's position for ION '07, nor is it Skirmish's fault that I failed to pressure them on the number of players. I can line up the excuses on that one, but end of the day, that's the reality of it.

Now the player base has decided not to take it any more. Skirmish has no choice but to respond. If you don't trust them, that's fine. Wait and see. That's a perfectly rational strategy at the moment and it even helps keep the numbers down so that things ramp up rather than just dumping the old numbers back on the field. The fundamental fix, given the reality of the situation, is a player cap. That's also the the hardest thing for them to do as a business. If there's one thing I and many others are pushing them on, it's accepting that they're going to have to take a hit on quantity if they want to keep their risks down and create an environment for quality.

We'll see.
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