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Old 10-17-2007, 12:30 AM #883
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Originally Posted by BGardner View Post
Many of the dealers who are facing hard times, will soon see that Smart Parts support the industry and the players, probably better than any other company in the business.
So youll support the industry with the royaltes you are receiving that many believe you dont rightfully own? Thats really swell of you!
This begs the question though...why are dealers facing hard times? Dont answer that yet, I will get back to it...

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To those who suggest that we put them out of business, this is just not the case. We always tried to license our technology and many of these people had the choice to license as the vast majority of the industry has now done or fight.
Some do not believe the technology is yours to license.

But let me ask, if the vast majority of the industry has chosen to license, Id really be interested to know if either Tippmann, or Kingman have licensed 'your technology' for their sear-based electronic markers?

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If you choose to fight you had better be in the right and obviously given the results they made the wrong choice.
Paintball is largely a cottage industry. A 'family business' as you suggest. Not everyone has family that are IP/Patent lawyers. Others dont have the finances to fight those that do. To suggest that a company is 'wrong' because they are incapable of fighting this legally, is at minimum misleading.

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As for the industry paying for our patents, we produced the best low cost marker in the marketplace, and as you will soon find out we are about to improve upon that commitment. Yes we are the value leader in more than one way.
To go back to my earlier comment....if you produced the best low cost marker in the marketplace....why are there dealers facing hard times? Why, since the release of the Ion back in 2005?, has the SGMA recorded a noticeable DECLINE in paintball participation?
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:30 AM #884
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I will agree somewhat that low pressure adds to accuracy...less kick....less movement adds to the accuracy...one thing that low pressure does is less noise...which can help in the accuracy department too...I do not want to debate this .....I do have high pressure markers that are just as accurate as some low pressure ones...
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:31 AM #885
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Originally Posted by BGardner View Post
I apologies for my tone but I have been answering the same questions for ten years. Part of my frustration surrounds the fact that my competition at the time started all the misnomers about the magic box. It worked. Many people bought it and liked it. The All Americans liked it and insisted on having it. I do not know what else to say. Low -pressure equals better accuracy. Almost all high- end guns use lower pressure than the Automag and most run at lower pressure than the automag with the magic box.
Proof?

I want videos, data analysis charts, Physics equations.

AA were sponsored by you. It was more like, you use it, or we dump you.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:31 AM #886
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Originally Posted by BGardner View Post
I apologies for my tone but I have been answering the same questions for ten years. Part of my frustration surrounds the fact that my competition at the time started all the misnomers about the magic box. It worked. Many people bought it and liked it. The All Americans liked it and insisted on having it. I do not know what else to say. Low -pressure equals better accuracy. Almost all high- end guns use lower pressure than the Automag and most run at lower pressure than the automag with the magic box.
so how then does a nelson valve shoot so streight? a phantom will shoot just as streight, just as accuratly as anything low pressure (and i own an AKA gun, guns don't get better as par as quality low pressure). i've shoot them in controlled eviorments, and measured the results. if you didn't know, a nelson valve runs at anything above 700 PSI, up to around 1200 PSI.

for further discussion - i've shot a mag and cocker back to back, and they shoot the same accuracy too? one runs on 300 psi, the other 850ish? explain that?

does the gym i shot them in have some kind of gusting gravity? do cockers just have gnomes afterall?

explain to me o wise almost engineer!
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:31 AM #887
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I have tried to explain ballistic co-efficent and the affect of pressure on a paintball for years. Funny enough only engineers understand the argument. I will try to simplify. I can get you up to fifty miles per hour two ways. I can put you in my car or I can hit you with my car, as a paintball which would you prefer
I'm an engineer... and your argument is horse-****.

Once the ball leaves the barrel it is subject to projectile flight only. The equations are state-equations, but you knew that right?

The only thing HP will do to a ball versus LP is mildly deform it during acceleration within the barrel - and even the negligence of that condition is debatable. Unless you can produce statistically significant evidence that Lower pressure air produces a better accuracy spread versus using higher pressure air and that said accuracy improvement is inherently due to only the difference in pressure... your claims are just farcical exercises of the imagination.

There is no evidence to prove or disprove your claims. So state the situation as such. You wanna be treated like an engineer you'd better start acting like one. Ethicals engineers don't make false or unsubstantiated claims.

I suppose next your going to argue the original .45acp is inherently more accurate than the newer .45gap due to substantially lower chamber pressures.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:31 AM #888
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Because we make good products and employ many God fearing people like yourself, and we make most of our products in the good old USA.
Are you sure your not for marketing and PR?
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Originally posted by Chickenmunga:
As far as the mini being hard to understand... WHAT???
1. open box
2. ding fries are done
I tried reading the quest manual and started looking for my seat on the short bus.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:33 AM #889
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Originally Posted by Pnuemagger View Post
I'm an engineer... and your argument is horse-****.

Once the ball leaves the barrel it is subject to projectile flight only. The equations are state-equations, but you knew that right?

The only thing HP will do to a ball versus LP is mildly deform it during acceleration within the barrel - and even the negligence of that condition is debatable. Unless you can produce statistically significant evidence that Lower pressure air produces a better accuracy spread versus using higher pressure air and that said accuracy improvement is inherently due to only the difference in pressure... your claims are just farcical exercises of the imagination.

There is no evidence to prove or disprove your claims. So state the situation as such. You wanna be treated like an engineer you'd better start acting like one. Ethicals engineers don't make false or unsubstantiated claims.

I suppose next your going to argue the original .45acp is inherently more accurate than the newer .45gap due to substantially lower chamber pressures.
Joe you are an animal.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:33 AM #890
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It is a matter of your shape. As you come off my bumper flat to the wind like a piece of paper, the air that hits you at fifty miles an hour may slow you down faster than if you keep your original shape. A bit of an exaggeration, but as an engineer you should get my point.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:34 AM #891
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Billy,

I've just got two questions. I appreciate you being on tonight and taking the time to answer some difficult questions in spite of a difficult audience.

Coming from a legal background and knowing how important a solid case is when presenting for a patent, how much effort is given into prior art and in light of all of the existing prior art surrounding your patents how is it that you continue to push through in spite of the overwhelming reasons not to.

What is your take on that the collective community (your peers) feels you and your brother are profiting on ill gotten gains at the expense of smaller companies going out of business or just exiting completely out of the marketplace?
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:34 AM #892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pnuemagger View Post
I'm an engineer... and your argument is horse-****.

Once the ball leaves the barrel it is subject to projectile flight only. The equations are state-equations, but you knew that right?

The only thing HP will do to a ball versus LP is mildly deform it during acceleration within the barrel - and even the negligence of that condition is debatable. Unless you can produce statistically significant evidence that Lower pressure air produces a better accuracy spread versus using higher pressure air and that said accuracy improvement is inherently due to only the difference in pressure... your claims are just farcical exercises of the imagination.

There is no evidence to prove or disprove your claims. So state the situation as such. You wanna be treated like an engineer you'd better start acting like one. Ethicals engineers don't make false or unsubstantiated claims.

I suppose next your going to argue the original .45acp is inherently more accurate than the newer .45gap due to substantially lower chamber pressures.
Well said
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Originally posted by Chickenmunga:
As far as the mini being hard to understand... WHAT???
1. open box
2. ding fries are done
I tried reading the quest manual and started looking for my seat on the short bus.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:34 AM #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGardner View Post
I have tried to explain ballistic co-efficent and the affect of pressure on a paintball for years. Funny enough only engineers understand the argument. I will try to simplify. I can get you up to fifty miles per hour two ways. I can put you in my car or I can hit you with my car, as a paintball which would you prefer
-Hi Bill. Nice to see you here.

Now, the issue with ballistic coefficient is that it's the same for every gun, since they all shoot approximately the same ball. Yes, there's minor differences as to airflow over seams and a miniscule difference in total drag between a .679" ball and a .693" ball, but again, that's an issue of the projectile, not the marker.

I have confidence your engineers realize this.

Secondly, the pressure used to fire the ball can indeed vary significantly; relatively high pressure over a short duration, or a relatively low pressure over a longer duration.

But if the ball does not distort- and Tom Kaye showed it doesn't in his glass-barrel experiments- and if the ball must, by regulation, be travelling at the same velocity once it exits the barrel, then I'm curious as to where the improved performance comes into the equation.

I mean, range, which you said for years was improved by "low pressure" use, must be identical betwene the LP marker and the HP marker; a 3.2 gram ball fired at 30 degrees and leaving the barrel at 285 FPS is going to travel the exact same trajectory whether you " accellerated it in a car" or you hit it with a car, as per your analogy.

Accuracy, as has been well established, is more dependent on paint quality and consistency, and to a lesser extent the marker velocity consistency, and to an even lesser extent the barrel-to-paint fit. Where, again, does pressure enter into that equation?

Thanks for your time.

Doc.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:34 AM #894
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Guys, please, I know you are frustrated with a lot of the issues surrounding various suits that Smart Parts has been involved in. We've seen some excellent companies fall, and in the face of adversity, we've seen some excellent and innovative designs arise from the ashes. But don't let this continue deteriorating into a flame war. While it may make you feel better for a bit, it doesn't do anything positive one way or the other. Mr. Gardner has been gracious enough to answer the questions he has. I'd personally rather not see this thread get locked due to a few tempers. Thank you, Mr. Gardner for the responses you have provided. I know there are still unanswered questions, but those may best be left for another day. I will be following the further development of your patent application Mr. Gardner, and I look forward to seeing what becomes of it. I also look forward to seeing if the prior art submitted to you in this conversation will be put forth willingly by your and your company. Thank you for your time, I should now retire to bed.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:34 AM #895
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Originally Posted by BGardner View Post
It is a matter of your shape. As you come off my bumper flat to the wind like a piece of paper, the air that hits you at fifty miles an hour may slow you down faster than if you keep your original shape. A bit of an exaggeration, but as an engineer you should get my point.
As an engineer he is refuting your point, a point made by a apparently shady businessman with no formal degree in engineering.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:36 AM #896
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So wait, a paintball changes to a more wind-resistant shape when shot from an HP operated marker, such as an Automag?

Blasphemy! Pluto isn't a planet!
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:36 AM #897
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Yes and as you know small changes at the beginning of a projectiles flight (especially a light weight projectile) are magnified significantly during is flight.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:38 AM #898
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-Hi Bill. Nice to see you here.

Now, the issue with ballistic coefficient is that it's the same for every gun, since they all shoot approximately the same ball. Yes, there's minor differences as to airflow over seams and a miniscule difference in total drag between a .679" ball and a .693" ball, but again, that's an issue of the projectile, not the marker.

I have confidence your engineers realize this.

Secondly, the pressure used to fire the ball can indeed vary significantly; relatively high pressure over a short duration, or a relatively low pressure over a longer duration.

But if the ball does not distort- and Tom Kaye showed it doesn't in his glass-barrel experiments- and if the ball must, by regulation, be travelling at the same velocity once it exits the barrel, then I'm curious as to where the improved performance comes into the equation.

I mean, range, which you said for years was improved by "low pressure" use, must be identical betwene the LP marker and the HP marker; a 3.2 gram ball fired at 30 degrees and leaving the barrel at 285 FPS is going to travel the exact same trajectory whether you " accellerated it in a car" or you hit it with a car, as per your analogy.

Accuracy, as has been well established, is more dependent on paint quality and consistency, and to a lesser extent the marker velocity consistency, and to an even lesser extent the barrel-to-paint fit. Where, again, does pressure enter into that equation?

Thanks for your time.

Doc.

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I love this thread.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:38 AM #899
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Yes and as you know small changes at the beginning of a projectiles flight (especially a light weight projectile) are magnified significantly during is flight.
You are jumping from explanation to explanation. Or should I say, "excuse to excuse." Consistency is part of honesty.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:39 AM #900
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ok Doc is here, thread is officially epic. all i want is for Tom Kaye to come and say the magic box had no signiificant effect on a mag's performance and I will be happy.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:39 AM #901
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Originally Posted by BGardner View Post
It is a matter of your shape. As you come off my bumper flat to the wind like a piece of paper, the air that hits you at fifty miles an hour may slow you down faster than if you keep your original shape. A bit of an exaggeration, but as an engineer you should get my point.
The flattening of the paintball is due to the force behind it, and since all paintballs are required to fly at a maximum muzzle velocity of 300fps, all paintballs are acted upon by equal net force (F = m a) and should be squished the same amount upon exiting the barrel.

edit: dang, doc beat me to it.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:40 AM #902
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The magic box was support by our warranty, and we had agreements with Tom Kay. Just because you have been around for a long time does not mean you know anything. If we beat up on you in some tournament, I am sorry.
Funny, I believe your add said "your Airgun Designs Warranty" is protected, and since your not AGD, well, that is misleading dont you think ? Also, I would quote the AGD terms of service but unfortunately they are switching servers as we speak. But I can post a pic from one of "your" old catalogs that emphatically states the AGD warranty, not the Smart Parts warranty:



Btw, I was subbing for Radioactive of Md, not even in the same division of the AA's, and we were watching from the sidelines when that little incident occured. So don't pat yourself on the back to hard, you didn't beat us, but we did learn how the AA's got into the finals all the time. Thanks for the education
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:40 AM #903
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I apologies for my tone but I have been answering the same questions for ten years. Part of my frustration surrounds the fact that my competition at the time started all the misnomers about the magic box. It worked. Many people bought it and liked it. The All Americans liked it and insisted on having it. I do not know what else to say. Low -pressure equals better accuracy. Almost all high- end guns use lower pressure than the Automag and most run at lower pressure than the automag with the magic box.
This is because it's very difficult to buy electropneumatic solenoids that operate effectively under battery power in the 400psi range. Lower pressure makes for less stringent design tolerances and specifications, lighter materials, longer part life, less viscous friction losses, shooting deeper into a tank, etc. ad infinitum

low pressure does not equal better accuracy... it just ain't that simple. Truth be told, a higher pressure marker will release the ball from the barrel with less residual pressure behind it versus a lower pressure marker. Does this mean that HP markers are more accurate? No... it doesn't mean anything without testing.
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