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Old 09-19-2007, 10:25 PM #22
dumberkid06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snuggles_smith View Post
A pump game where everybody is limited to 30 rounds a piece and an unlimited one are played very differntly. Honestly I think the limited paint makes the games more intense, at least for me, every single shot is a big decision. And I like being on a field where everybody has 30 rounds(or whatever amount) and they have to think about every shot they make, it's a differnt playing experience from unlimited paint and laning and all that. I'm willing to mix it up with semis, you have to around here most of the time, but I want limited paint as an available option. I'm not saying it's any better then unlimited paint. Here's my main point that a lot of people seem to miss, an unlimited paint game and a low paint limit game are 2 completely differnt games, 2 completely differnt styles of play. I'm not saying one should replace the other, but I think we should have both. It's like comparing arena football to the NFL, they both have the same basics, but each game is played differntly.

And Deagle, I don't see limited paint giving certain teams an advantage. If the amount of paintballs used is going to put a team at a disadvantage, it's because they use firepower as a crutch.
i think he means that it wouldnt be fair for a faster person because the slower people could get to their bunkers just like the smaller, faster player which wouldnt happe if it wasnt limited paint.

i like this thread
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Old 09-20-2007, 01:39 PM #23
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I get your point SS - I think the same argument could be made for any level of paintball however.

Stock class is different from limited paint - limited paint is different from open class pump - open class pump is different from semi auto mechanical - semi auto mechanical is different from semi auto electro - semi auto electro is different from PSP or uncapped mode and so on.

Many people have argued on this thread that open class pump is no different from semi. This is wrong - the ROF jumps atleast 5 to 8 BPS with just mechanical semi and 8 - 15 BPS with ramping and PSP mode.

There is a large tournament circut (OSC) that caters to limited paint. I do not see why every tournament is talking of limited paint - it is being done.

Some players use firepower as a crutch - some use stock class as a crutch (to limit the other players firepower). People who use certain types of paintball as a crutch are not necessarily what we are talking about here.

TF
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Old 09-20-2007, 07:10 PM #24
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At a certain point though, the game takes a big turn. As you take away firepower, eventually laning and constant shooting disappears. Unlimited open class can be played as a slower version of semi, people still lane and try to keep people in by shooting thier bunkers the whole game. Limited paint or stock class can take that stuff out of the picture and completely change the game. I'm not saying that all paintball should have limited firepower, but it's definately a fun alternative. It's not just to give somebody an advantage or stop overshooting. It's to take out the aspect of firepower and make you concentrate on the other aspects of the game, like moving and shot placement. Why do so many of you seem opposed to this? I'm not saying all pump tournies should do this, but I think some should keep it alive.

Unlimited open class and semi can be played practically the same and are played the same by many players. You can still use the same tatics as in semi, thier just slightly less effective because of the lower bps. You still see people laning and trying to keep people in thier bunkers, just like in semi. Sure, everybody may not play like that, but a lot do.
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Old 09-21-2007, 08:55 AM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snuggles_smith View Post
Unlimited open class can be played as a slower version of semi, people still lane and try to keep people in by shooting thier bunkers the whole game.
I've never seen this. Yes, sweet spotting off the break trying to get the first elimination but NEVER have I seen guys constantly pound a bunker. It just doesn't make sense to do so. Do you pound a bunker to clear a move for a teammate yeah... but it isn't constant or "the whole game"

Quote:
Originally Posted by snuggles_smith View Post
It's to take out the aspect of firepower and make you concentrate on the other aspects of the game, like moving and shot placement.
It seems to me that you have to concentrate more on movement with paint in the air. If now one is stopping you, it's easy to move. Shot placement is shot placement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snuggles_smith View Post
Why do so many of you seem opposed to this? I'm not saying all pump tournies should do this, but I think some should keep it alive.
Actually, the OSC is the only reliable tournament series at this point. They've set a schedule early and have consistently delivered their tournaments. It's the open class that needs a dedicated venue. The NSA seemed to loose their uniqueness this year by trying to please everyone with stick feed events, pocket hoppers, etc. Limited paint definitely has a dedicated venue in the OSC. I'm not opposed to this at all... I think it's great! This whole discussion started in another thread when a guy from Dallas (Linuss) asked why Pumpenstein doesn't play OSC. We may do one in the future... but currently, I just choose to support open play with my wallet instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snuggles_smith View Post
Unlimited open class and semi can be played practically the same and are played the same by many players. You can still use the same tatics as in semi, thier just slightly less effective because of the lower bps.
What's "wrong" with that? Why does everyone hate on Open Class so much.

Snuggles... Please don't think I'm dogging on limited paint/stock class/or whatever. I think pump is great and anything that encourages more pump players is awesome. I'm the first guy to say, "Play what you like". I guess I'd just like the same respect.
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:30 AM #26
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I think Beaux has hit for me too. We have taken a lot of heat for being the 'AT Monkey's' because we play open class. We have always respected Stock Class - but most people who play with pocket hoppers or stock class limit open class out of their leagues (OSC, NSA) and try to talk us into their type of play.

We respect other types of play - I am not sure why Open class, given what Beaux said above, is the bastard step child of pump play.

TF
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:42 AM #27
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TF & Beaux, thou hath converted me.

SC only for rec game now. All hail the hopper fed hose machine!

:Not a dodgy big enough:

Jay

EDIT:See my post below.

Last edited by JOESPUD27 : 09-21-2007 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 09-21-2007, 11:02 AM #28
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TF & Beaux, thou hath converted me.

SC only for rec game now. All hail the hopper fed hose machine!

:maybedodgy:

Jay
Sigh. That's the sort of crappy attitude I'm talking about. "maybedodgy"?... whatever. I'm not trying to convert anyone... play what you like.

Nevermind people...I'll continue to play my "hosefest" and have fun playing and continue to introduce semi players to the fun of pump play. For pump to grow, we need to attract more semi players and it's easier to convince semi players to try open class. Alot of people I deal with are unhappy tournament guys who want a change and they fall in love with it. :|
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Last edited by Beaux : 09-21-2007 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 09-21-2007, 11:27 AM #29
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why the hate??

unlimted vs limited paint....

all i can say it's still only one ball to get someone out, you're still pumping no matter what. it's pump. Even if someone was that quality player they say they are then it wouldn't really matter how much you/others shoot, or what you/others shoot [pump marker type AT or non AT]. I play both open and stock, and I play equally the same with the same amount of paint; to each his own.

i like this thread as well, finally something worth looking at.. good debate.. it's the new pump talk forum..
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Old 09-21-2007, 11:38 AM #30
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Quote:
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Sigh. That's the sort of crappy attitude I'm talking about. "maybedodgy"?... whatever. I'm not trying to convert anyone... play what you like.

Nevermind people...I'll continue to play my "hosefest" and have fun playing and continue to introduce semi players to the fun of pump play. For pump to grow, we need to attract more semi players and it's easier to convince semi players to try open class. Alot of people I deal with are unhappy tournament guys who want a change and they fall in love with it. :|
Honestly is was a complete joke post.

I've really found I'm more comfortable shooting my Sniper 2. I have nothing against hopper, ATs, Speedfeeds, or even using a Halo on a pump. I don't think I have a crappy attitude. Perhaps I should edit my above post.

I seriously respect those that play pump competitively, can run and gun people, and still lane people off the break. I wish I was able to do just one of those 3.

With that being said, I still love grabbing my Phantom, and handful of tubes, and yes even putting the 3.5 away and using 12gs.

Jay
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Old 09-21-2007, 11:58 AM #31
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Old school Sheridan FTW!

I don't need no fancy AT, or a loading process that takes any less then 30 seconds for paintballs and 1 minute for 12g!


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Old 09-21-2007, 12:20 PM #32
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Honestly is was a complete joke post.

I've really found I'm more comfortable shooting my Sniper 2. I have nothing against hopper, ATs, Speedfeeds, or even using a Halo on a pump. I don't think I have a crappy attitude. Perhaps I should edit my above post.

I seriously respect those that play pump competitively, can run and gun people, and still lane people off the break. I wish I was able to do just one of those 3.

With that being said, I still love grabbing my Phantom, and handful of tubes, and yes even putting the 3.5 away and using 12gs.

Jay
Sorry Jay. I must have read it with the wrong emphasis. all's good.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:00 PM #33
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Thereís nothing wrong with open class pump play. I think the majority of our local players have made the switch to mostly open class markers in the past year or two. It has little to do with terrible players gaining any significant advantages over skilled modified stock class players. It has everything to do with highly skilled open class players that are able to exploit the advantages of superior firepower. I feel that Iím a half-way decent player, but Iím nowhere near being good enough to handicap myself against the current level of competition.

The problem is that open class markers provide a significant advantage. Competitive open class events cause players to gravitate towards the limit of the rules. No one wants to disallow ATíed Snipers, any more than anyone wants to render stock class markers obsolete.

The OSCís 5-man and 7-man divisions prior to this season were completely open class. The majority of the players voted on placing greater limitations on the format at the end of last year. I canít speak for everyone, but the general consensus seemed to be that there wasnít enough differentiation from semi events. Stricter rules help to allow stock class markers to be used competitively against open class markers, while only slightly affecting the open class markers. These rules are a compromise between the two ends of the spectrum; theyíre not meant to cater to one or the other. It wasnít too long ago that pump tournaments (GWS, Carter Invitational) only allowed stick feeds parallel to the barrel with no stacking, and the markers had to be 12 gram powered. I think the OSC and NSA have done a lot to help incorporate as many pump markers as possible while maintaining a mostly level playing field.

Limited paint has been the most successful format for pump in the past 5 years. Itís not effective enough to make me switch back to my Phantom or stick-feed Sniper, but if it helps bring more pump players out to the events, Iím all for it. Pumpenstein gents, Iím not trying to convert you, but I would like the opportunity to play against you again.
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:11 PM #34
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Thereís nothing wrong with open class pump play. I think the majority of our local players have made the switch to mostly open class markers in the past year or two. It has little to do with terrible players gaining any significant advantages over skilled modified stock class players. It has everything to do with highly skilled open class players that are able to exploit the advantages of superior firepower. I feel that Iím a half-way decent player, but Iím nowhere near being good enough to handicap myself against the current level of competition.

The problem is that open class markers provide a significant advantage. Competitive open class events cause players to gravitate towards the limit of the rules. No one wants to disallow ATíed Snipers, any more than anyone wants to render stock class markers obsolete.

The OSCís 5-man and 7-man divisions prior to this season were completely open class. The majority of the players voted on placing greater limitations on the format at the end of last year. I canít speak for everyone, but the general consensus seemed to be that there wasnít enough differentiation from semi events. Stricter rules help to allow stock class markers to be used competitively against open class markers, while only slightly affecting the open class markers. These rules are a compromise between the two ends of the spectrum; theyíre not meant to cater to one or the other. It wasnít too long ago that pump tournaments (GWS, Carter Invitational) only allowed stick feeds parallel to the barrel with no stacking, and the markers had to be 12 gram powered. I think the OSC and NSA have done a lot to help incorporate as many pump markers as possible while maintaining a mostly level playing field.

Limited paint has been the most successful format for pump in the past 5 years. Itís not effective enough to make me switch back to my Phantom or stick-feed Sniper, but if it helps bring more pump players out to the events, Iím all for it. Pumpenstein gents, Iím not trying to convert you, but I would like the opportunity to play against you again.
very well put!

i bolded exacty what i thought but to the heart of the matter.
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Old 09-21-2007, 06:50 PM #35
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I've never seen this. Yes, sweet spotting off the break trying to get the first elimination but NEVER have I seen guys constantly pound a bunker. It just doesn't make sense to do so. Do you pound a bunker to clear a move for a teammate yeah... but it isn't constant or "the whole game"
I've seen it in some of the videos, and we had a team do it at our local series. They would just pound bunkers and try to rush the other team. It worked on some of the less experienced teams that weren't used to aiming, but the better teams did them in during finals.


Quote:
It seems to me that you have to concentrate more on movement with paint in the air. If now one is stopping you, it's easy to move. Shot placement is shot placement.
But the more paint you have in the air the less you can move. I would rather get out making a move from a really good/lucky shot or going to a bad bunker, not from somebody throwing a pod's worth of paint at me as I run. I want to promote more moving in paintball, limited paint gives people the confidence to move more and pull crazy ****. There's nothing like frantically running around the field chasing people.


Quote:
Actually, the OSC is the only reliable tournament series at this point. They've set a schedule early and have consistently delivered their tournaments. It's the open class that needs a dedicated venue. The NSA seemed to loose their uniqueness this year by trying to please everyone with stick feed events, pocket hoppers, etc. Limited paint definitely has a dedicated venue in the OSC. I'm not opposed to this at all... I think it's great! This whole discussion started in another thread when a guy from Dallas (Linuss) asked why Pumpenstein doesn't play OSC. We may do one in the future... but currently, I just choose to support open play with my wallet instead.
I think the NSA's approach in rather unique, but they seem to eager to please everybody. I can definately see why you don't fly to California to play the OSC, I have a hard time making it to in-state fields.


Quote:
What's "wrong" with that? Why does everyone hate on Open Class so much.
The problem is a lot of people switch to pump because they're tired of semi, and thier not interested in a slower version of semi. They start out playing open class to get used to pump, then they want to move farther away from semi style play.


Quote:
Snuggles... Please don't think I'm dogging on limited paint/stock class/or whatever. I think pump is great and anything that encourages more pump players is awesome. I'm the first guy to say, "Play what you like". I guess I'd just like the same respect.
I have no problem with the concept of open class, I've played it in the local pump tournies. The problem is there's no real limitations to keep people in check. Some kid can bring out his S6 with a Halo on it and shoot 5 pods in a game and still be considered open class. As you get more players in pump, there's going to be more people pushing the limits, and they'll end up being another firepower race. Honestly I think a 200 round limit for 5 man open class would be perfect, it gives you some firepower when **** hits the fan, but it's still low enough that you can't hose to much.

I'm also just trying to convince people to play it. So many people just sound like they just don't want to play it for whatever lame reason they come up with. I'm an all rounder, I'll play just about any type of paintball using just about any type of gun/other(no blister ball though), so I'm always trying to convince everybody else to play everything.
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Old 09-21-2007, 07:25 PM #36
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Snuggles. I am with you one the 200 round limit. Seems fair to me.

TF
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Old 09-21-2007, 07:39 PM #37
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Sigh. That's the sort of crappy attitude I'm talking about. "maybedodgy"?... whatever. I'm not trying to convert anyone... play what you like.

Nevermind people...I'll continue to play my "hosefest" and have fun playing and continue to introduce semi players to the fun of pump play. For pump to grow, we need to attract more semi players and it's easier to convince semi players to try open class. Alot of people I deal with are unhappy tournament guys who want a change and they fall in love with it. :|
i am getting my pump cuz i was playing a wreck game aginst TF and beaux and i got owned by two old guys with pumps playing aginst electros sp it spacked my curiosity (no offense bout the oldguy thing plz dont hurt me)
and thx for the head shot.
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:12 PM #38
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Man... a whole bag lasted my 3-man team all day at the OSC.

Then when we went to play with the walk ons (6 pumps vs 20 semis... we won) 1 bag lasted 4 games =D
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Old 09-22-2007, 12:17 AM #39
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Snuggles. I am with you one the 200 round limit. Seems fair to me.

TF
so whats the argument about? i;ve been arguing that there should be some limit this whole thread and you've been fighting with me the whole time - now you agree to a limit?

whats the beef? you drunk?




am i drunk ...
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Old 09-22-2007, 07:34 AM #40
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The beef I have is that it seems many tournament events want to put multiple limits on the marker, feed system, and amount of paint.

There seems to be limits geared directly against the restriction of open class play. No AT, small to no hoppers, very limited paint and so on.

I mentioned before that I thought a decent comprimise was the ten round tube reload rule that the NSA nationals had last year. Really - can you reasonably carry more than 20 tubes? We carried 15 a peice and I never, in all 11 games, shot over 200 rounds.

200 round per player is a decent amount to allow paintball to be played while laning and preventing movement. I just think 30 rounds per player or stock class does not allow the game to be played as it is played today. I don't mind it - but I would prefer an open class tournament. I think, as far as pump goes, it is the most honest representation of paintball out there.

As Snuggles mentioned above - only the newer teams are fooled by spray and pray AT fest. Those players will be eliminated from tournaments regardless. I don't think that ATing or 100 round hoppers ruins pump play. I do think that extremely limited paint does make paintball a very different and non representative game.

TF
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Old 09-22-2007, 10:02 AM #41
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i was drunk ...
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Old 09-22-2007, 12:35 PM #42
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As far as the NSA is concerned, I think some are misinterpreting this year's change in format. It wasn't because some folks were tired of the teams using open class markers dominating the series. I'd get into that right now but that requires a little more time than I have right now. I'll give more input about the original intent of the NSA and this b.s. about open class vs. stock class later.
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