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Old 07-17-2007, 03:05 PM #1
JLothrop
 
 
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The Return of the Intelligent Discussion Threads: What is going on in Paintball?

Ok, so I know it's been awhile since we had a discussion thread. However, I'd kind of like to hear people's input on this.

What is going on with paintball right now?

It seems to me that battle lines are being drawn between the PSP and NPPL. Is this a sign of desperate times? Is it really just financial issues, or are the leagues trying to edge each other out? Does it matter, cause I think both leagues are getting hurt.

Rumor has it Legacy just pulled out of the NXL, and if I remember correctly LTZ dropped out too and there seems to be a rotating spot in the NPPL, we're at event three and there's been three different pro teams in and out of that spot I believe? It seems to me money is tight, and more and more teams and companies are forced to make a choice, at every level of play.

So what's next? Does this drama play out until one of the leagues throw in the towel? Or will they finally realize that what is best for paintball is to merge? Is this the beginning of the end, or the beginning of the next generation of paintball?
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:37 PM #2
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Hey don't forget the recent battle lines between PBN and NPPL..

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2274444
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Old 07-17-2007, 06:47 PM #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLothrop View Post
Rumor has it Legacy just pulled out of the NXL, and if I remember correctly LTZ dropped out too and there seems to be a rotating spot in the NPPL, we're at event three and there's been three different pro teams in and out of that spot I believe? It seems to me money is tight, and more and more teams and companies are forced to make a choice, at every level of play.
I'm going to add my 2cents in for this particular subject....

I think Aftermath takes an NXL Spot. They can fund it, they had ALOT of success the past 2 seasons in BOTH leagues.

I also think it's about time for Ulimate to hang up their hat, no offense to that team, I give them all the respect in the world for trying to compete at the level but their roster isn't deep enough to battle those powerhouse teams. I think they'll walk away as well. I'd personally like to see Joy take on 1 of those spots, it'd be interesting to see how they'd adapt to the NXL I'm sure they could pull some talent from the Millenium series and put a fresh spin on the NXL. Come to think of it has WDP ever had a team in the NXL?

Another team is IMPACT.... I think we'll see them in NXL eventually.

As for the NPPL I think Kilborne will try and buy back into pro after losing the Wacker/Sedition spots.

That's my opinion.
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Old 07-17-2007, 09:22 PM #4
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it's so late in the season, that most spots that are for sale are in serious jeopardy of being lost at seasons end do to finishing so low in the standings. this makes those spots value come way down. the arsenal/dallas elite spot that was sold to bad company was sold at a very discounted rate because it was in so much jeopardy of being lost at seasons end. wouldnt make sense for some of these teams mentioned (aftermath in psp, and bushwackers in nppl) who are so close to earning a pro spot for next season to buy in only to lose them (and their money) at the end of the year.
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Old 07-17-2007, 09:42 PM #5
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yeah ultimate needs to step down, go back to maybe D1 where they had a ton of success and rebuild.
as for Joy Division, i have no clue what type of team they are in NXL,but i would think it would be interesting..they're having a VERY solid NPPL year
BC bought a spot, which i though was iffy b/c if they didnt pull off a decent showing at Boston, it would be relagated assuming they didnt stun at KC. they showed up, earned 10 at Boston and assuming XSV or Rage doesnt do great at KC and BC does alright, BC should be fine

since this is the hurricanes forum...hopefully theyll step it up, wont miss out on cup.

edit: btw, oakland blast, IMO, are one hit wonders.
1st in HB, then LAST in Tampa, and then 12th in Boston..hmm
the big surprise of this NPPL year is obviously Edmonton Impact proving as a powerhouse already. 3 solid events
btw, Aftermath is going pro in NXL..its been confirmed by even the players on the team. as for NPPL i dont know.
i like this discussion, lets keep the flamming out

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Old 07-17-2007, 09:46 PM #6
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....wow I just realize we are half way through the season. DUH

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanV View Post
wouldnt make sense for some of these teams mentioned (aftermath in psp, and bushwackers in nppl) who are so close to earning a pro spot for next season to buy in only to lose them (and their money) at the end of the year.
Very good point, I retract parts of my previous statement. I neglected to see that angle, I'm just saying in general I'd like to see those particular teams step up to the plate and mix thangz up.

***edit for your edit***
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edit: btw, oakland blast, IMO, are one hit wonders.
AGREED
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the big surprise of this NPPL year is obviously Edmonton Impact proving as a powerhouse already. 3 solid events
This team is really fun to watch, they play VERY smart paintball.
Quote:
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btw, Aftermath is going pro in NXL..its been confirmed by even the players on the team. as for NPPL i dont know.
These guys are the next big thing. I wonder what city they'll designate.....? California is all outta real estate. hahahah
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Last edited by TeeTwo : 07-17-2007 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 07-17-2007, 10:03 PM #7
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wasnt OC already pro and they stepped down last season? i think if anyone should move up aftermath should, there a powerhouse and they in my opinion would do amazing.From my point of view, NPPL is a failing league. PSP is run ten times better and way more efficient. Plus PSP has ten times the format. Thats just my two cents. NXL isnt a great league, it dosnt have much fan support either, which is a big thing because without fans whats the point, and theres no money.
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Old 07-17-2007, 10:10 PM #8
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wasnt OC already pro and they stepped down last season?
PRO Teams bumped down last year:
16. Sedition
17. Bushwackers
18. Assassins

PLUS Kilborne's Semi-pro squad missed the bump up by like 1 place.

The kicker is.... he bought Sedition half way through last year to enusure he'd stay pro..... and go figure, he lost ALL spots.

I just think he spread his rosters too thin, too many teams, too many people.
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Last edited by TeeTwo : 07-17-2007 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 07-17-2007, 10:53 PM #9
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i hope the bushwackers come back
i loved that team
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Old 07-17-2007, 11:01 PM #10
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bushwaker are great to watch id like to see them get back up to pro
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Old 07-18-2007, 08:32 AM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanV View Post
it's so late in the season, that most spots that are for sale are in serious jeopardy of being lost at seasons end do to finishing so low in the standings. this makes those spots value come way down. the arsenal/dallas elite spot that was sold to bad company was sold at a very discounted rate because it was in so much jeopardy of being lost at seasons end.
Are you speaking with inside knowledge?


Quote:
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wouldnt make sense for some of these teams mentioned (aftermath in psp, and bushwackers in nppl) who are so close to earning a pro spot for next season to buy in only to lose them (and their money) at the end of the year.
PSP doesn't work like the NPPL. Joining now would help them get an invite for next season (it would be viewed as stepping up and a willingness to help the league). Apples and oranges.
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Old 07-18-2007, 08:34 AM #12
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btw, Aftermath is going pro in NXL..its been confirmed by even the players on the team. as for NPPL i dont know.
Beware what players tell you. They are often speaking out of the wrong end of their body.
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Old 07-18-2007, 08:36 AM #13
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NPPL is a failing league. PSP is run ten times better and way more efficient. Plus PSP has ten times the format. Thats just my two cents. NXL isnt a great league, it dosnt have much fan support either, which is a big thing because without fans whats the point, and theres no money.
NXL prizes are significantly more than NPPL prizes.
Fans are awesome, but do not contribute to the bottom line of an event.
NPPL just inked a TV deal with Fox Sports, bought Paintball 2Xtremes and has 3 non-industry sponsors about to jump in. Failing??
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Old 07-18-2007, 08:37 AM #14
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The kicker is.... he bought Sedition half way through last year to enusure he'd stay pro..... and go figure, he lost ALL spots.

I just think he spread his rosters too thin, too many teams, too many people.
He bought Sedition to help out Craigy, who was an ex-player of his and a friend. He did hope to help keep himself in pro, but he knew the risks with Sedition.

He did not staff Sedition with players, so that would not have contributed to spreading his roster(s) too thin.
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Old 07-18-2007, 08:44 AM #15
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Hey Jeff.... while your in here would you mind chiming in on the topic?

What do you expect to happen this season?
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Old 07-18-2007, 08:50 AM #16
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ya know, I saw this thread when i got back to my hotel room last night around 11 pm and I was thinking about posting, but it was late and, honestly there is so much thought that can go into a post. If half the stuff I am hearing is true (and half of it probably is), I could post a book. And then we'd all talk about it ad naseum and then none of it would come true and we'd talk about that.

Don't get me wrong, I think that's fine, and often valuable. Practicing thinking is always a good thing. But it alternatively revs me up and brings me down to dwell on it too much.

Remember, though, its all speculation.

What do Legacy, LTZ, Ultimate and Farside have in common and who else fits in that category?

edit. I was bored.

I think what we are seeing right now is more about the teams than it is about the leagues. Both the PSP and the NPPL are strong right now. The NPPL is bringing in the outside world and obviously has some money behind them to continue making key industry purchases (********* and PB2X). The PSP is strong right now behind renewed committments of DYE and Smart Parts.

The teams, however, are hurting. And I think part of the reason teams are electing to drop out of the NXL is not about format loyalty, but about financing (the NXL is about 33% more expensive) and about repurcussions (you skip an NPPL event, you lose your spot. You skip Omaha, you can still play in the Cup, just as a D1 team, and most of the teams we are talking about are looking at that anyway).

Rumors are that Legacy is dropping the NXL because of financial issues now that Gary Shows has left paintball (he was sick of the way the industry conducts itself).

Rumors are that LTZ is dropping the NXL because the team owner is sick of players not giving 100%.

Ultimate because of money.

There are three or four or more other teams looking at selling NPPL spots or vacating NXL ones, and most come down to with a general disillusionment with the industry/sport/leagues/teams.

Why are so many good (and many wealthy) people leaving the sport? That concerns me more than anything else.

Ron Butler and I talked last year about how the sport needed better owners. More people like himself, Bart Monroe, Ed Poorman, Gary Shows. People with money and business acumen and common sense and a large-picture approach. Are those people, the ones with vision, seeing nothing visionary in our sport?
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:50 AM #17
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http://www.ltzpaintball.com/details.news.asp?ID=343

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Old 07-18-2007, 12:15 PM #18
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You know I actually started this thread, not as a discussion of the team differences, but the sport as a whole. Jeff says both leagues are going strong. I think they are, which is strange, because I don't think the leagues themselves are making any money. How long do you think the NPPL can show red figures before their outside backers cut their losses? It seems to me they are putting a lot more money out now then ever before, and it seemed to me they weren't making much (if any) money before, so it doesn't seem they possibly could be now. But I don't have the inside scoop on that.

I thought the teams leaving was about money as well. But that says something about the state the industry is in right now. I hadn't really taken a stand on whether or not I thought the leagues should merge. But I think it's merge now or the rift is going to get wider. I don't think more teams are suddenly going to be able to compete in both leagues. I think the fact that pro teams are now starting to fall by the wayside, that is a precursor of what is to come. I think more teams are going to need to start choosing one league or the other. Money is only getting tighter. This could very well mean less teams for both leagues, and certainly weaker competition. At least that's my understanding. Long story short, I think a merge needs to happen, or one league needs to throw in the towel. It seems to me that's the only answer to paintball ever truly making it as a sport. How long before that happens though? Will the owners of the leagues realize that nothing good is coming of this rivalry and finally compromise? Or will this continue to be a long standing grudge match until one of the two leagues is forced to give up? And if it's a grudge match, will that drag out so long that paintball will be left so disillusioned and tattered that it won't even matter that it's down to one league? Will the momentum of the 2004-2005 peak be too far gone then?
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Old 07-18-2007, 07:24 PM #19
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hey stein, you should go after lucian for the xball team
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Old 07-18-2007, 07:27 PM #20
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rosters are locked
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:27 PM #21
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jeff, any concern about missing out on cup?
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