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Old 07-14-2007, 05:01 PM #1
Johnny5072
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MWAG Support

Just wanted to say that MWAG gets my support. I saw this issue with TV coming a long time back. The Television business is just that, a business. I don't ever remember seeing MWAG or Derder on the field during the Miami ESPN tourney.

To not allow MWAG or others on center court is just plain wrong. If the TV deal went for the entire season they would have forced them all off for the season.

Pat, you are usually the guy who is the least invasive with your camera. Always grabbing the great angles from places where the rest of us don't normally stand. Yet you still get great angles and footage.

I hope NPPL reconsiders or they may have just drawn the line on who they consider professional and who they don't.

I always thought that the $1500 camera fee was enough to discourage hobbyists from taking up space on the field. It also prevents people from getting footage that to the Production companies help strengthen their brand.

I hope there can be room for all of us in Paintball. I just hope NPPL can realize this before their delusions and fascination with TV ruin it for the folks that have been promoting the NPPL brand for as long as they have been in business.

I think the television deal may have stipulated that they be the only ones to capture the action on center court for the reasons I mentioned earlier. If you are the only one to grab the center court finals action then that lends credibility and brand strength to your product. You are the only one who has that access and therefore people will come to you to see what happens. I think the NPPL thought this would be the best way to guarantee that the show being produced would be seen by as many people as possible. When you are exclusive people have to come to you to get what they want. Let's not hope that this exclusivity has the reverse effect.

Thanks again for the great images Pat and your unending committment to the sport.

-John

Last edited by Johnny5072 : 07-14-2007 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:09 PM #2
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**before i start, i have nothing agaisnt MWAG, i love their DVDs and will continue to support them through this**

fox needs all the room they can get. they cant have any competition. this is whats best for our sport, whether it kills out the little guy or not. wee NEED this spotlight on our sport so we can grow into a mainstream sport. people arent gunna go buy an mwag dvd just to find out what paintball is. they will watch the sport networks, and see paintball.

when ESPN aired paintball i had countless ammounts of people come to me and say "is that really what you do? it looks like so much fun"

im sorry mwag, and derder, and all other small companies that do filming at center court, but I am taking NPPLs side on this one. i want to see this sport grow into something as big as football or hockey. it may sound impossible, but its not. its already bigger than snow boarding and rugy, 2 sports that have been around at LEAST twice as long as paintball.
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:21 PM #3
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Originally Posted by Karzac View Post
**before i start, i have nothing agaisnt MWAG, i love their DVDs and will continue to support them through this**

fox needs all the room they can get. they cant have any competition. this is whats best for our sport, whether it kills out the little guy or not. wee NEED this spotlight on our sport so we can grow into a mainstream sport. people arent gunna go buy an mwag dvd just to find out what paintball is. they will watch the sport networks, and see paintball.

when ESPN aired paintball i had countless ammounts of people come to me and say "is that really what you do? it looks like so much fun"

im sorry mwag, and derder, and all other small companies that do filming at center court, but I am taking NPPLs side on this one. i want to see this sport grow into something as big as football or hockey. it may sound impossible, but its not. its already bigger than snow boarding and rugy, 2 sports that have been around at LEAST twice as long as paintball.
Karzac I agree for the exposure.

However, these guys do not release their material until months later. A lot longer than when the TV show would air. I say let them on the field. Television and Video is a strange animal. NFL has major network coverage but also has NFL Films and some other smaller companies. They have photographers on the field from various organizations around the world. If the NFL has all this media then there is room in Paintball. They need to look around at other series and realize that no one is exclusive. From NFL to Nascar, there are many different media outlets covering them.

This is a poor decision from a group who is in its infancy in terms of running a national league. I think they will look back on this and see that it was a bad decision.

-John
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:27 PM #4
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Karzac I agree for the exposure.

However, these guys do not release their material until months later. A lot longer than when the TV show would air. I say let them on the field. Television and Video is a strange animal. NFL has major network coverage but also has NFL Films and some other smaller companies. They have photographers on the field from various organizations around the world. If the NFL has all this media then there is room in Paintball. They need to look around at other series and realize that no one is exclusive. From NFL to Nascar, there are many different media outlets covering them.

This is a poor decision from a group who is in its infancy in terms of running a national league. I think they will look back on this and see that it was a bad decision.

-John
I agree, i have more to say but i have to head out soon. i think your idea is good, but not for right now. once painball gets to be huge like the NFL than companies like MWAG and derder should be allowed back on the field.

but until then, why not focus on the lower divisions? like, they are the backbone of this sport. so film them on the other fields and in the meantime peacefully negotiate with the NPPL and try to find a way that we can make this work.
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:00 PM #5
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There is lots of blame to go around with this I would imagine.

NPPL signing the contract and knowing it would cause issues with independents and not having a clause in that maybe the independents could work with foxsports to get a good product out on tv.

To foxsports not realizing that they could take advantage of knowledge by the dvd producers for tv. In a plus it sounds like its going to be a lifestyle segment as well as the tournament games which is AWESOME if true.

To MWAG for drawing a line in the sand on the issue. Its ONE field for ONE event and its causing people to severe ties. Its ridiculous quite honestly. Is the Boston event going to make or break your business? NO. Is it quite possible going to bring in more fresh blood into the sport which in the long run will help your dvd sales?? Probably if not definitely yes.

To PBN...same as above.

Its a shame that politics have to once again come screaming to the top rather then take a look at the sport as a whole and including your own paintball businesses in the potential influx of paintball television.

Sean hit it right on the head...outside sponsor helps EVERYONE. Fox filming and putting it on tv HELPS PAINTBALL.

Its sad to see this crap really.
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:11 PM #6
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I see both sides, but Doc I think you hit on it a little about being able to negotiaite the contract to allow for the DVD guys to film center court. Exclusivity to sports programming usually only shows up in Pay Per View or Exclusive rights TV deals. It is unfortunate that the NPPL couldn't work out a contract that included MWAG and others.

I think PBN is using their "Voice" if you will to show NPPL how they feel about the choice. We all have a way to use our "Voice" by showing support or boycotting something we may not agree with. It can be financially, through a petition, or any number of other ways.

I think there is also pressure from vendors and sponsors. We all know that the sales haven't been as stellar as in past years. The shot in the arm that Shawn talked about may not show itself for months to years down the line.

I think only time will tell. It does show one thing though, that there is still a heavy dose of politics and power struggle in our industry. So much so that it may be the one thing that prevents the sport from growing.

-John
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:28 PM #7
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BTW just wanted to say I've supported MWAG in the past. Hell I bought H4aD at the MAO when I could have gotten it cheaper at my local retailer but I wanted to buy directly from Pat and Bonnie.

I'll still continue to buy their products because I know they love and care about the sport.

I just think that the politics flair up did not need to happen.
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:31 PM #8
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boooo getting ************* a swear filtered word!!!
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Old 07-14-2007, 08:01 PM #9
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i think everyone needs to look at it like this:

fox airs paintball > more players come into speedball > more players buy MWAG/DerDer dvds > everyone profits, the dvd companies, the paintball companies, the NPPL/PSP and fox.
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:28 PM #10
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Fox Airs Paintball > Nothing Happens > MWAG/DerDer have less footage of Boston

Good "theoretical" logic though
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:03 PM #11
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How about this dream scenario:

Fox Airs paintball = MWAG/Derder/Traumahead get to cover the event as usual = Everybody gets paintball = Fox loses nothing because the others aren't competition = Tzeentchiangod has a torrid 3way affair with Lisa Harvey and Seanette Taylor

I like it.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:11 PM #12
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Can Blazestorm be involved in scenario too... he wishes to feel special...
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:14 PM #13
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LOL!

But in all honesty, I don't see why they couldn't co exist on the center court field???

They are totally separate things. Totally different styles.

I guess if they give that much credibility to outside filmers then they must be afraid of their work interfering. To me it just goes to their (Winnercomm)ignorance of the sport.

And if you're going to do a Paintball lifestyle show, why do you bring out these huge cameras and a jib arm like you're a shooting a live event?? You bring a broadcast truck and all the support personnel for a lifestyle show???
That looks more like folks that know how to produce a live event, not make a Paintball reality show? That's what Winnercomm does is live events.

We need the folks that do reality TV for a living. Not a Sports production group. Let Derder and MWAG get the game footage and then produce all the behind the scenes stuff and package it into a show.

It should have been small camera crews going arond the venue and some on field cameras. They look like they setup to produce it live.

Oh well....
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:46 PM #14
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LOL!

But in all honesty, I don't see why they couldn't co exist on the center court field???

They are totally separate things. Totally different styles.

I guess if they give that much credibility to outside filmers then they must be afraid of their work interfering. To me it just goes to their (Winnercomm)ignorance of the sport.

And if you're going to do a Paintball lifestyle show, why do you bring out these huge cameras and a jib arm like you're a shooting a live event?? You bring a broadcast truck and all the support personnel for a lifestyle show???
That looks more like folks that know how to produce a live event, not make a Paintball reality show? That's what Winnercomm does is live events.

We need the folks that do reality TV for a living. Not a Sports production group. Let Derder and MWAG get the game footage and then produce all the behind the scenes stuff and package it into a show.

It should have been small camera crews going arond the venue and some on field cameras. They look like they setup to produce it live.

Oh well....
This would work aswell.

i guess my whole arguement is - who cares? sounds ignorant, but honestly, why all the anger about it? i meen ya it would be sweet if everyone could work together, but it didnt work like that. so lets just get on with our lives.

i think what PbN did was VERY childish. they didnt have to take it to the next level like that.
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Old 07-14-2007, 11:46 PM #15
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i think what PbN did was VERY childish. they didnt have to take it to the next level like that.
Actually, this is one of the more rigorously and vindictively moderated forums I've ever been a part of which is kind of weird since paintballers in general are sort of non-conformist by nature.

That being said, this is a short-term loss, long-term gain issue for the DVD companies as has been said above. And theoretical logic applies in this case. No expansion of exposure into the mainstream, no mainstream sport. Sorry, but if only paintballers watch paintball then it will always be a fringe thing.

After I watched my first sportbike race I ran out and bought about a dozen DVDs and then a few months later a sportbike. Is it apples and apples? No, but the theory is still sound. If more people see it (on FSN) then more people are likely to get into it. And I'm sorry but that stupid Paintball World News show on that outdoor network does nothing but make paintball look more fringe.

Professional coverage=nice cameras/professional camerawork=people think it may be worth watching. POV headshots on grainy film shot in an artistic manner are great once you're into the sport but not great for those just trying to figure out what the heck's going on. Can you imagine trying to figure out what's going on by watching hockey from a POV camera? No? Same with paintball.
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:27 AM #16
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Actually, this is one of the more rigorously and vindictively moderated forums I've ever been a part of which is kind of weird since paintballers in general are sort of non-conformist by nature.

That being said, this is a short-term loss, long-term gain issue for the DVD companies as has been said above. And theoretical logic applies in this case. No expansion of exposure into the mainstream, no mainstream sport. Sorry, but if only paintballers watch paintball then it will always be a fringe thing.

After I watched my first sportbike race I ran out and bought about a dozen DVDs and then a few months later a sportbike. Is it apples and apples? No, but the theory is still sound. If more people see it (on FSN) then more people are likely to get into it. And I'm sorry but that stupid Paintball World News show on that outdoor network does nothing but make paintball look more fringe.

Professional coverage=nice cameras/professional camerawork=people think it may be worth watching. POV headshots on grainy film shot in an artistic manner are great once you're into the sport but not great for those just trying to figure out what the heck's going on. Can you imagine trying to figure out what's going on by watching hockey from a POV camera? No? Same with paintball.
you sum up my thoughts nicely.
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Old 07-15-2007, 12:55 PM #17
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Its sad really. Walker said on the podcast that the fee's were refunded and apparently the expenses were reimbursed as well??

If thats true there is NO leg to stand on against the NPPL. They negociated a contract with Fox which is standard, they notified people a week in advance, they reimbursed people for expenses AND you those people get to film every other field for free.

So where is all of this fight coming from??
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:14 PM #18
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Yeah after hearing Shawn's point about refunding their money, I can see how that may look like NPPL was in the right. It seems like from what Shawn is saying that he is trying to remedy the situation. After all they will all be seeing each other for some time to come on and off the field.

I just think it was a bitter pill for those that film these tournaments and have done so much for the sport. I hope Pat comes in here and is able to talk about his views more in depth. I think it did get emotional and how could it not. You spend countless hours on something and are expecting to have the same level of access to shoot only to hear that you have been shoved out of the way for something new. It can be a bit disheartening if you ask me.

-John
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:20 PM #19
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ok so from what i am readig youd like to see the nppl on dvd rather then on TV for free?
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:29 PM #20
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.

However, these guys do not release their material until months later.
Oh and MWAG gets out the next week?

hahaha
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:12 PM #21
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Oh and MWAG gets out the next week?

hahaha
Nah I was trying to say that if FOX was worried about having exclusive rights to the footage it wouldn't matter anyway for ratings because MWAG wouldn't release their footage on DVD until months after the TV show had aired.

So for exclusivity it seemed like a moot point. Let them shoot it because it would not take anything away from the FOX show.

That's what I meant.
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