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Old 07-04-2007, 04:51 AM #1
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Exclamation followup to Divine Intervention!

in the first thread i asked if anyone could name an occurrence in which a god specifically intervened in thier life. i got no unexplainable stories. which brings me to a follow up statement... ALL religions are hesaid/shesaid. dont believe me? name a religion (islam, judaism, christianity) which there is a first hand account to the god.- growing up in any of them you are only TOLD what's going on, or you READ whats going on. so you "believe" in something someone told you? how is that different from defending an unverrified high-school rumor? (which were told all our lives is stupid). how often do we all hear "ooohhh thats just a rumor, did you see it?" well, to ALL religions out there- "oooohhh, thats just a rumor, did you see it?"
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:09 AM #2
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Well, some people in the Bible did speak directly to God...but they're all dead, so...I don't know what you want me to do about that.

Secondly, some people in particular religions, like Catholicism, have experienced direct revelations or visions from God, however, these are usually not binding on anyone but the individual and not everyone believes in what was said, so...again, I'm not sure what you want us to say?

I mean, even if there was a first hand account, unless it happened to you personally, you wouldn't believe it. So then, whats the point of this thread again? Just to criticize anyone who posts in it from a religious perspective. Oh yeah, I forgot. Just like your other one. Good luck with that.
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Old 07-04-2007, 12:23 PM #3
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i was really confused about my faith, i had all these ideas and misconceptions running through my mind, i called upon God to guide me towards the truth and away from all these lies that had infested my mind. I became i really religious person ( the man you see today) becase of that


I also begged God not for my parents to divorce, they had gotten into fights several and several times before, it time it seemed as though they were on the brink of it happening, i begged God to keep them together each time and it worked


Ive also begged God to help me many of times in school, when i lost my books that i needed to study for my test i found them ( i wasnt searching for them either), my GPA improved, I had been able to resist the constant drug and social abuse my peers indulge in



Those are just some of the examples i can think of now, its your choice whether to believe they are just mere coincidence or divine intervention i could care less if anyone denied it these are just my examples


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Old 07-04-2007, 12:54 PM #4
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i agree with you fatdan.
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Old 07-04-2007, 06:29 PM #5
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just to clarify, im not tryin to disrespect anyone. i actually greatly admire believer for his immense debating skills. im only trying to bring a valid point to the table that never gets out because of the anger it creates in the "followers" (sorry i cant think of a better term) and just maybe point out some facts overlooked by... everyone? in my first thread, i pointed out that i WAS in fact a christian- actually 3 denominations at certain times (baptist, methodist and non-denominational) and i KNOW what its like to live the life. shut-out from the world. so i just want to bring some facts to the 'nation and see what everyone thinks. if im wrong, ill gladly rot in "hell" over serve a church that has committed the worst attrocities in the history of man. (plz dont flame that last sentence w/o doing research...)
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Old 07-05-2007, 01:17 PM #6
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So everything that isn't directly experienced by you is deemed "existentialism"?

There are many different reason to believe the experiences of the first church were real ones, from historical, logical, and empirical evidences and writings.

From the logic of what you are saying you can not believe that "testimony" is true unless you yourself experience it.

I have heard and believe a story of a pastor in a third world country that was caught by rebels and they took a machete to his neck and it did not break the surface of the skin.

Now, you could say that the person doing the hatchet job on the neck didn't do it right, the blade was dull, etc. etc. and say it wasn't protections or whatever. Maybe that is what happened, but the other is true itself.

The refutation of metaphysical happenings is a presupposition that you have and it probably won't be changed by any story that you don't personally experience.

You're probably more existential than what you think you are . . . by making truth out of what you personally experience (or don't experience) which is just as much dangerous as believing in a deity.
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Old 07-05-2007, 01:19 PM #7
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I have heard and believe a story of a pastor in a third world country that was caught by rebels and they took a machete to his neck and it did not break the surface of the skin.

Now, you could say that the person doing the hatchet job on the neck didn't do it right, the blade was dull, etc. etc. and say it wasn't protections or whatever. Maybe that is what happened, but the other is true itself.
Proof that the story really happened? Otherwise, the point you are making is null.
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Old 07-05-2007, 03:18 PM #8
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So everything that isn't directly experienced by you is deemed "existentialism"?

There are many different reason to believe the experiences of the first church were real ones, from historical, logical, and empirical evidences and writings.

From the logic of what you are saying you can not believe that "testimony" is true unless you yourself experience it.

I have heard and believe a story of a pastor in a third world country that was caught by rebels and they took a machete to his neck and it did not break the surface of the skin.

Now, you could say that the person doing the hatchet job on the neck didn't do it right, the blade was dull, etc. etc. and say it wasn't protections or whatever. Maybe that is what happened, but the other is true itself.

The refutation of metaphysical happenings is a presupposition that you have and it probably won't be changed by any story that you don't personally experience.

You're probably more existential than what you think you are . . . by making truth out of what you personally experience (or don't experience) which is just as much dangerous as believing in a deity.
Option three is that the story is fake and never actually happened. 1) You 'heard' it from 'someone'. Bad start. 2) Rebels? Who were they? What country was it in? What respected news journalist reported the story?
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Old 07-05-2007, 04:07 PM #9
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just to clarify, im not tryin to disrespect anyone. i actually greatly admire believer for his immense debating skills. research...)


I appreciate your compliment
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Old 07-05-2007, 08:08 PM #10
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What would you guys say about something like this?

Eucharistic Miracle, Lanciano Italy:

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucha.../lanciano.html
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Old 07-06-2007, 03:31 AM #11
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What would you guys say about something like this?

Eucharistic Miracle, Lanciano Italy:

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucha.../lanciano.html
Fascinating. Although completely explainable. The only aspect that interests me is the preservation phenomenon. I would like more information on that aspect of the event. Specifically the extrachemical makeup of the biological matter and the potential preservative effects those chemicals may have.
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Old 07-06-2007, 04:22 AM #12
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in the first thread i asked if anyone could name an occurrence in which a god specifically intervened in thier life. i got no unexplainable stories. which brings me to a follow up statement... ALL religions are hesaid/shesaid. dont believe me? name a religion (islam, judaism, christianity) which there is a first hand account to the god.- growing up in any of them you are only TOLD what's going on, or you READ whats going on. so you "believe" in something someone told you? how is that different from defending an unverrified high-school rumor? (which were told all our lives is stupid). how often do we all hear "ooohhh thats just a rumor, did you see it?" well, to ALL religions out there- "oooohhh, thats just a rumor, did you see it?"
Wait just a second. You mean to tell me that religions are based on...faith? Absolutely ground braking discovery. You've really hit some new territory here.

Your point is silly. A guy on the street could come up to me and tell me that he just lost a million dollars. I could chose to believe him or not. What I believe doesn't change the reality of his story. To those that believe in their particular gospel, it's history. It's not something they heard, it's a factual part of history. Now the Chinese don't teach the children about Tiananmen Square, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. My point here is that the fact that you weren't there for something, doesn't mean it did or didn't happen. Anything you don't witness first hand has to be based on your belief in it.

Trying to call people out based on their belief of accounts of things that happened thousands of years ago is just silly. How could they have been there to see it?
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Old 07-06-2007, 09:23 AM #13
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Fascinating. Although completely explainable.
How would you explain it? Just wondering. It happened in the eight century during the consecration and the whole church saw what happened. This was the eight century, mind you, without all the wonders that modern technology can afford to make some grand illusion happen. And if you say that it was taken from a corpse, note that when tested, "In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood."

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As part of this most recent investigation, the following comment was made: "Though it is alien to my task strictly speaking, I feel I should insert the following reflection into the study just completed: the clarification, which comes through in these studies, of the nature of the flesh gives little support to the hypothesis of a 'fraud' perpetrated centuries ago. As a matter of fact supposing that the heart may have been taken from a cadaver, I maintain that only a hand experienced in anatomic dissection would have been able to obtain from a hollow internal organ such a uniform cut (as can still be glimpsed in the flesh)."

What the doctor, a scientist and not a theologian, is saying in simple language is that although it's not his task to speculate it would have been difficult, next to impossible, for anyone to have cut a slice of the heart in the way that it was done. He also states that it's highly doubtful that there was any fraud involved.
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The only aspect that interests me is the preservation phenomenon. I would like more information on that aspect of the event. Specifically the extrachemical makeup of the biological matter and the potential preservative effects those chemicals may have.
For more information on the Lanciano miracle, go to the bottom of the web page I gave you and you will see more links to it.

Another interesting little tidbit about Lanciano is that the miracle is ongoing.

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The Host-turned-Flesh, and the wine-turned-Blood, without the use of any form of preservative, is still present in the reliquary. In 1574 testing was done on the Flesh and Blood and an unexplainable phenomenon was discovered. The five pellets of coagulated Blood are different sizes and shapes. But any combination weighs the same as the total. In other words, 1 weighs the same as 2, 2 weigh the same as 3, and 3 weigh the same as 5.

Another unusual characteristic of the blood is that when liquified, it has retained the chemical properties of freshly shed blood. When we cut ourselves and stain our clothes, the chemical properties of the blood are gone within 20 minutes to a half hour. If blood is not refrigerated within an hour maximum, the composition rapidly breaks down. If blood were taken from a dead body, it would lose its qualities quickly through decay. This blood is over 1250 years old and still contains all its properties, chemicals and protein of freshly shed blood. And yet in the testing, it was determined that no preservatives of any kind were found in the blood.
Fascinating indeed.

Last edited by NicoleW : 07-06-2007 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 07-06-2007, 02:58 PM #14
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How would you explain it? Just wondering. It happened in the eight century during the consecration and the whole church saw what happened. This was the eight century, mind you, without all the wonders that modern technology can afford to make some grand illusion happen. And if you say that it was taken from a corpse, note that when tested, "In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood."





For more information on the Lanciano miracle, go to the bottom of the web page I gave you and you will see more links to it.

Another interesting little tidbit about Lanciano is that the miracle is ongoing.



Fascinating indeed.
I don't have an explanation as I have zero experience dealing with this particular phenomenon. The circumstances that lead to this result may very well be above our current level of scientific understanding as well. I am still leaning towards treachery though. The appearance of the items is more than likely perpetrated by individuals attempting to manufacture a miracle. Like I said, the interesting part is the claimed impossible preservation abilities of the items. Although bizarre, it is not unexplainable.
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Old 07-06-2007, 08:07 PM #15
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im with derr on this one, it does sound amazing, but im sure its treachery. im not gonna call shens cause i think this forum is a little more intelligent than that. but im gonna have to see more information (who was the party that did the investigation? why has no government done anything about it? why did i not know this? etc...) but if i see all i need to know and i still cant come up with any doubt, youll see me in the christian ballers klub...
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Old 07-06-2007, 08:11 PM #16
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why has no government done anything about it? why did i not know this?
Exactly! Think about the scientific power of harnessing the ability to preserve living organic tissue for centuries. Sounds pretty valuable to me.
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Old 07-06-2007, 08:16 PM #17
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Exactly! Think about the scientific power of harnessing the ability to preserve living organic tissue for centuries. Sounds pretty valuable to me.
Well, I think the trouble with that is they have found nothing in the samples that would explain said phenomenon. So how can they harness something that is not there? How can you harness a miracle? If you could, it wouldn't be a miracle anymore. It would be explainable, and yes, valuable.
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Old 07-06-2007, 08:18 PM #18
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Well, I think the trouble with that is they have found nothing in the samples that would explain said phenomenon. So how can they harness something that is not there? How can you harness a miracle? If you could, it wouldn't be a miracle anymore. It would be explainable, and yes, valuable.
Or it's fake.

Just because it hasn't been found yet, doesn't mean it's not there. Come on, that's just basic science.
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Old 07-06-2007, 08:19 PM #19
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im with derr on this one, it does sound amazing, but im sure its treachery. im not gonna call shens cause i think this forum is a little more intelligent than that. but im gonna have to see more information (who was the party that did the investigation? why has no government done anything about it? why did i not know this? etc...) but if i see all i need to know and i still cant come up with any doubt, youll see me in the christian ballers klub...
I mean, go ahead. Try googling it or whatever is necessary. Try coming up with as much info as possible to debunk it and we can discuss it.

BTW, really only Catholics believe in the Real Presence of the Eucharist (i.e. the bread and wine really turning into the body and blood of Jesus Christ). So you would have to join the Catholic (not just christian) ballers club. Too bad there isn't one
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Old 07-06-2007, 08:22 PM #20
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Or it's fake.

Just because it hasn't been found yet, doesn't mean it's not there. Come on, that's just basic science.
But why is it that you are still refuting science then. Why are you still trying to find flaws even when I show you solid scientific testing. I mean, what else can I say? Really nothing. You are so dead set against the possibility of it being a true miracle, even though it goes beyong plain old here-say and 'faith', that I'm not quite sure what you want from me. Iam at a loss.

EDIT: BTW, what is 'shens'?
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Old 07-06-2007, 08:38 PM #21
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but im gonna have to see more information (who was the party that did the investigation?
Found out a little more info for you:

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In 1970 there took place a scientific investigation as by the most illustrious scientist, prof. Odoardo Linoli, Eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy.

He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena. The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs which were rendered a matter of public domain by the esteemed Prof. Linoli himself in a conference held on March 4, 1971 in the church of the Miracle.
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Physician Tells of Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano
Edoardo Linoli Verified Authenticity of the Phenomenon



ROME, MAY 5, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Dr. Edoardo Linoli says he held real cardiac tissue in his hands, when some years ago he analyzed the relics of the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, Italy.

The phenomenon dates back to the eighth century. A Basilian monk, who had doubts about the real presence of Christ in the sacred species, was offering Mass, in a church dedicated to St. Legontian in the town of Lanciano.

When he pronounced the words of the consecration, the host was miraculously changed into physical flesh and the wine into physical blood.

Later the blood coagulated and the flesh remained the same. These relics were kept in the cathedral.

Linoli, a professor of anatomy and pathological histology, and of chemistry and clinical microscopy, and former head of the Laboratory of Pathological Anatomy at the Hospital of Arezzo, is the only doctor who has analyzed the relics of the miracle of Lanciano. His findings have stirred interest in the scientific world.

At the initiative of Archbishop Pacifico Perantoni of Lanciano, and of the provincial minister of the Franciscan Conventuals of Abruzzo, and with authorization from Rome, in November 1970 the Franciscans of Lanciano decided to have the relics examined scientifically.

Linoli was entrusted with the study. He was assisted by Dr. Ruggero Bertelli, retired professor of human anatomy at the University of Siena.

Linoli extracted parts of the relics with great care and then analyzed the remains of "miraculous flesh and blood." He presented his findings on March 4, 1971.

His study confirmed that the flesh and blood were of human origin. The flesh was unequivocally cardiac tissue, and the blood was of type AB.

Consulted by ZENIT, Linoli explained that "as regards the flesh, I had in my hand the endocardium. Therefore, there is no doubt at all that it is cardiac tissue."

In regard to the blood, the scientist emphasized that "the blood group is the same as that of the man of the holy Shroud of Turin, and it is particular because it has the characteristics of a man who was born and lived in the Middle East regions."

"The AB blood group of the inhabitants of the area in fact has a percentage that extends from 0.5% to 1%, while in Palestine and the regions of the Middle East it is 14-15%," Linoli said.

Linoli's analysis revealed no traces of preservatives in the elements, meaning that the blood could not have been extracted from a corpse, because it would have been rapidly altered.

Linoli's report was published in "Quaderni Sclavo di Diagnostica Clinica e di Laboratori" in 1971.

In 1973, the Higher Council of the World Health Organization (WHO) appointed a scientific commission to verify the Italian doctor's conclusions. The work was carried out over 15 months with a total of 500 examinations. The conclusions of all the researches confirmed what had been stated and published in Italy.

The extract of the scientific research of WHO's medical commission was published in New York and Geneva in 1976, confirming science's inability to explain the phenomenon.

Today, Linoli participated in a congress on Eucharistic miracles organized by the Science and Faith master's program of Rome's Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University, in cooperation with the St. Clement I Pope and Martyr Institute, on the occasion of the Year of the Eucharist under way.

"Eucharistic miracles are extraordinary phenomena of a different type," Legionary Father Rafael Pascual, director of the congress, told Vatican Radio. "For example, there is the transformation of the species of bread and wine into flesh and blood, the miraculous preservation of consecrated Hosts, and some Hosts that shed blood."

"In Italy, these miracles have occurred in several places," he said, "but we also find them in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain " and some in North America.
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