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Old 07-05-2007, 01:14 PM #64
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Im not saying it leaves. And im not saying that its non-existant (because i do not know). But I do feel that when im asleep. Its a CLUE of non-existance for that split second, right before you wake up.
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Old 07-05-2007, 01:18 PM #65
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Im not saying it leaves. And im not saying that its non-existant (because i do not know). But I do feel that when im asleep. Its a CLUE of non-existance for that split second, right before you wake up.
But if you are conscious of that feeling for that split second, then it is not non-existence. You cannot experience non-existence, it's impossible. To experience something you must first exist and so must whatever you are experiencing. If neither exist... wtf?
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Old 07-05-2007, 01:18 PM #66
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Elie Wiesel:
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.

Charlotte Perkins Gilman:
Death? Why this fuss about death. Use your imagination, try to visualize a world without death! ... Death is the essential condition of life, not an evil.

I posted these quotes because to me life is what is important... live your life and don't worry about what will happen when you die. What is best for people? Servitude. I believe that the answer to death is found in a life of service to others.
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Old 07-05-2007, 01:19 PM #67
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But if you are conscious of that feeling for that split second, then it is not non-existence. You cannot experience non-existence, it's impossible. To experience something you must first exist and so must whatever you are experiencing. If neither exist... wtf?

THANK YOU. THANK YOU. That clears up ALOT for me. I just didnt understand untill you said that. THANK YOU.
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Old 07-05-2007, 01:20 PM #68
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THANK YOU. THANK YOU. That clears up ALOT for me. I just didnt understand untill you said that. THANK YOU.
Lol np!
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Old 07-05-2007, 02:12 PM #69
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could you elaborate on this a bit more? interesting.
Cryptic answered it spot on. It's not an original idea, I owe a lot of what I believe now to Richard Dawkins. His books are unbelievable. I think everyone on the planet should read "The God Delusion", from which I adopted the idea
'we do not exist before we are born, therefore when we die, we no longer exist, so in essence they must be exactly the same thing.'

Furthermore, I think people chose to believe in heaven, because let's face it, that would be awesome if that were the reality. I, however, have just as much trouble comprehending the idea of moving on to a place like heaven and simply not existing. We're talking about infinity here though, and I guess infinity is just as hard to comprehend as it is to comprehend infinity not existing.

I also don't think that the majority of people who claim to believe one goes heaven when they die actually believe that, due to the common mourning process. If you really believed in heaven, wouldn't one rejoice (well, not exactly in the sense of rejoicing that one might think I'm implying) when a family member "moves on"? Shouldn't they be happy if they truly believed their mother or father has gone to heaven, a place of eternal happiness? Shouldn't their attitude be: "My dad is in heaven, he is in a better place, I'll be standing with him eventually"

So the question is:

Why is it that these people who claim to believe in heaven still go through the tortuous and scarring pain of losing someone close to them when their reaction should be the absolute opposite?

I hope I got my point across correctly. I'm also not trying to be insensitive to those who have been through the mourning process, because I certainly have.
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Old 07-05-2007, 02:40 PM #70
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"
'we do not exist before we are born, therefore when we die, we no longer exist, so in essence they must be exactly the same thing.'
Furthermore, I think people chose to believe in heaven, because let's face it, that would be awesome if that were the reality. I, however, have just as much trouble comprehending the idea of moving on to a place like heaven and simply not existing. We're talking about infinity here though, and I guess infinity is just as hard to comprehend as it is to comprehend infinity not existing. "

Just think about it though,you exist for the monent. who created your existance?
and if you have some scientific explanation of how the world came about beeing to the "big bang theory" or what not, then what created the big bang?... There had to be a time It was all created, It couldnt just have came up on its own.

there has to be something.


My personal belief on this, its a TEST FOR FAITH. God does NOT want us to know as a test for faith. Which is why we will never know what is going to happen when we die. Were never going to know how the world came about, or even the universe.
Just a test for faith. We do have to be infinite. But once we die, There will be judgment, ONLY because I have faith in it. To me, now, there is no such thing as non-existing.. otherwise I wouldnt be here right now. Theres a reason why I have been granted the life im living.
positive/or negative.



"Why is it that these people who claim to believe in heaven still go through the tortuous and scarring pain of losing someone close to them when their reaction should be the absolute opposite?"

...you make sense and I now wonder that also.
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Old 07-05-2007, 02:50 PM #71
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I think that can still vary from person to person, and gets into a matter of how each person allows themselves to pecieve it. Naturally, when you loose someone close you are going to be sad because you no longer have that person with you, and that closeness to them for the rest of your life here on earth. But like people have said, if you do truely believe in heaven and hell, and know that they went up to heaven, then you will not be as sad, because you know they are better off. When my buddy's grandpa died, they didn't have a "funeral", they had a "celebration of life". So while many people don't focus on the big picture of they are happier, and you will see them soon, many people don't feel broken and lost when a loved one dies, becasue they do focus on the big picture.

All that being said, I'm not saying any of this is fact, its my personal opinions and experiences.
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Old 07-05-2007, 02:55 PM #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECOCKER View Post


Just think about it though,you exist for the monent. who created your existance?
and if you have some scientific explanation of how the world came about beeing to the "big bang theory" or what not, then what created the big bang?... There had to be a time It was all created, It couldnt just have came up on its own.

there has to be something.

To clarify my stand on what I'm going to say, I do believe in creation not evolution.

The arguement you just placed can quickly be turned around on anyone who believes in creation. the question of "Where did God come from", is currently no more answerable than where did the stuff for the big bang come from.

Neither of these can currently be answered, and I'm not ragging on you at all, just saying that with the eduction levels of many people who post in this group, if you don't cover all of your bases, someone will let you know about it.
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Old 07-05-2007, 03:17 PM #73
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Originally Posted by NorCalBaller88 View Post
Cryptic answered it spot on. It's not an original idea, ...
as I said - that helps a lot in understanding what it was that you were trying to convey.
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...We're talking about infinity here though, and I guess infinity is just as hard to comprehend as it is to comprehend infinity not existing.
again, understood, and in fact - most "Christians" don't have a clue in this regards. timelessness isn't linear as we perceive it now - heaven isn't a "long time", it's no time, as I believe.
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I also don't think that the majority of people who claim to believe one goes heaven when they die actually believe that, due to the common mourning process. If you really believed in heaven, wouldn't one rejoice (well, not exactly in the sense of rejoicing that one might think I'm implying) when a family member "moves on"? Shouldn't they be happy if they truly believed their mother or father has gone to heaven, a place of eternal happiness? Shouldn't their attitude be: "My dad is in heaven, he is in a better place, I'll be standing with him eventually"
The simple answer is that for those of us that do know, the mourning process is a ego-centric issue. we who are alive and remain are thinking bout ourselves ant that we will miss those that have departed. we will miss their friendship, fellowship, what they can do for us, or even what they could have done for others. but to say that because there is mourning, invalidates is not correct logic in my opinion, as I may mourn someones passing, but because of the tragedy of their being gone. I celebrate their entering heaven (as I believe). and many other Christians are the same way.
Quote:
So the question is:

Why is it that these people who claim to believe in heaven still go through the tortuous and scarring pain of losing someone close to them when their reaction should be the absolute opposite?
already answered. because it may not be what you think it is.
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Old 07-05-2007, 04:04 PM #74
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:10 PM #75
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Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
Elie Wiesel:
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
One of my favorite quotes. He's been through more than anyone deserves to go to and has provided some great insight into spirituality and human perseverance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalBaller88 View Post
Cryptic answered it spot on. It's not an original idea, I owe a lot of what I believe now to Richard Dawkins. His books are unbelievable. I think everyone on the planet should read "The God Delusion", from which I adopted the idea
'we do not exist before we are born, therefore when we die, we no longer exist, so in essence they must be exactly the same thing.'

Furthermore, I think people chose to believe in heaven, because let's face it, that would be awesome if that were the reality. I, however, have just as much trouble comprehending the idea of moving on to a place like heaven and simply not existing. We're talking about infinity here though, and I guess infinity is just as hard to comprehend as it is to comprehend infinity not existing.

I also don't think that the majority of people who claim to believe one goes heaven when they die actually believe that, due to the common mourning process. If you really believed in heaven, wouldn't one rejoice (well, not exactly in the sense of rejoicing that one might think I'm implying) when a family member "moves on"? Shouldn't they be happy if they truly believed their mother or father has gone to heaven, a place of eternal happiness? Shouldn't their attitude be: "My dad is in heaven, he is in a better place, I'll be standing with him eventually"

So the question is:

Why is it that these people who claim to believe in heaven still go through the tortuous and scarring pain of losing someone close to them when their reaction should be the absolute opposite?

I hope I got my point across correctly. I'm also not trying to be insensitive to those who have been through the mourning process, because I certainly have.
If I get a chance in my summer reading I think I'll pick up that book, I've heard it mentioned several times and now I feel that I need to read it to really get another view.

As stated before, the mourning process is more self centered than anything else. It is natural for you to be sad if someone very important to you, (partner, parent, friend, mentor, etc.) passes away because we know that for the remainder of our life this special person will be absent. However, this period doesn't have to be a time of complete sadness. Look at New Orleans Funerals for example. Even though the people are in mourning for the loss of a great person, they celebrate because they know that they will eventually be reunited.
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:22 PM #76
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Meh, come what may. I'd rather be in Hell than nonexistent.
Something tells me that with hell being as it's described, that's not the case.
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:53 PM #77
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I believe the last surge of energy across our neural synapses causes a bend in the 4th dimension, which in turn causes an alternate reality relative to ours. I believe in an explanation based on string theory and the idea of alternate dimensions. I believe that this alternate reality is what "heaven" is. Whatever our idea of heaven is at the time of death affects the creation and/or modification of the reality. In short, I believe in an afterlife and I believe there is a scientific explanation for it.
What happens when a person's brain turns into goo after a bullet goes through it then? Or what about people that literally vaporize from high explosives?
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:03 PM #78
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What happens when a person's brain turns into goo after a bullet goes through it then? Or what about people that literally vaporize from high explosives?
There is still a split second of shock and your nervous system is even still working. Neurons are still being fired across synapses even without your brain.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:14 AM #79
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I believe the last surge of energy across our neural synapses causes a bend in the 4th dimension, which in turn causes an alternate reality relative to ours. I believe in an explanation based on string theory and the idea of alternate dimensions. I believe that this alternate reality is what "heaven" is. Whatever our idea of heaven is at the time of death affects the creation and/or modification of the reality. In short, I believe in an afterlife and I believe there is a scientific explanation for it.
Yes that is one of the more interesting theories of quantum physics IMO. Very plausible.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:29 AM #80
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So the question is:

Why is it that these people who claim to believe in heaven still go through the tortuous and scarring pain of losing someone close to them when their reaction should be the absolute opposite?

I hope I got my point across correctly. I'm also not trying to be insensitive to those who have been through the mourning process, because I certainly have.
I cannot speak for everyone or even anyone, but a reason why Christians could act this way is because of their dependence on the deceased.

In short, they do not weep for the dead, but for themselves.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:53 AM #81
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I cannot speak for everyone or even anyone, but a reason why Christians could act this way is because of their dependence on the deceased.

In short, they do not weep for the dead, but for themselves.
Explain what you mean by 'dependence on the deceased'... Do you mean dependence as in their relationship with the deceased? It's a hard topic to discuss simply because it is hard to generalize like that and speak for anyone else.... it just seems typical, especially in former times, of people who claim to believe in heaven to react to the death of a loved one as if it were the end of the world... when what they hold to be their beliefs would be completely contrary. That's what I'm trying to say.
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:07 AM #82
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State of mind is not non-existant during sleep. Your brain is still processing information and it is still at work. Mood, feelings, and sensory-perception are all at work even while you sleep. The state of sleep cannot be what death is since that state requires the functions of the brain and nervous system.

EDIT: When you don't dream, your brain is still at work. Like I said, processing information, reacting to temperature, etc.
I think the whole idea of death being like sleep doesn't have to do with scientific facts about what the brain and body are doing during sleep, but more the senselessness, darkness, nothingness of sleep. When you aren't dreaming in your sleep and it is just nothing, that is what he is talking about when relating it to death. When we are in a deep, dreamless sleep, that is what death is like.

I sometimes get stuck in this idea that if there is nothing after death, when I die it will just be pitch black, I think it is because I can't even imagine not existing. When we die, it is nothing, you don't even know you are dead, because you brain is dead. Death is nothing. We were lucky to be born in this lifetime, of millions of sperm, we got picked to live, so live and enjoy life.
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Old 07-06-2007, 04:43 AM #83
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Funerals are not for the dead, and never have been. They're for the living. The people mourning aren't mourning for the dead person, they're mourning for themselves and what they lost. Those who have faith that the person is ending up in a positive place will use that belief to cope with their loss at some point, but that doesn't change the fact that something they deeply care about has been taken from them. It's not about being sad for that person, it's about being sad for yourself, because they're no longer there for YOU.
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Old 07-06-2007, 09:20 AM #84
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Funerals are not for the dead, and never have been. They're for the living. The people mourning aren't mourning for the dead person, they're mourning for themselves and what they lost. Those who have faith that the person is ending up in a positive place will use that belief to cope with their loss at some point, but that doesn't change the fact that something they deeply care about has been taken from them. It's not about being sad for that person, it's about being sad for yourself, because they're no longer there for YOU.
How are they lost if they are just someplace else? I don't mourn every time my parents go on vacation.
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