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Old 06-27-2007, 08:22 PM #1
Dylan RRPB1 (Banned)
 
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Christian Religion is IMPOSSIBLE to live by FAITHFULLY

Alright, here it is. First off, I want to say I was baptized Christian Methodist. I spent 6 years of my schooling in a private Christian school. Since I was young, I have had questions that could not be answered. Because of these questions, I found it hard to take the Holy Bible seriously.

One of the first questions I had ever posed was:

"What if a person does not have a chance to accept Jesus before they die? What if they never get to hear of Jesus, or they were just raised in the wrong religion and never got a fair chance?"

It is said numerous times that the only way to go to Heaven is to accept Jesus as your Saviour and to be baptized. Well some people do not even get that chance with the situations they were raised in.

Aside from just accepting Jesus and being baptized, what about following the rules?

Throughout the Bible it says that we need to love thy neighbor. Well lets look at Leviticus 20:13

"And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Here the Bible is saying that we should live in a society where we kill homosexuals. How are we suppose to go about following this? Why in the Bible
does it ask us to be kind, but only to the people that are just like us? Are the homosexuals just doomed from the start?

Not is it JUST homosexuality, but what about making love, or showing affection even to the opposite sex.


In 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul says:

Quote:
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor. . . . For God has not called us for uncleanness, but in holiness. Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.
(1 Thess. 4:3–5, 7–8)

It has been said in the "Virginity and sex in the Christian Religion" thread, that actions such as kissing a girl/boy with tongue is against the Bible. How are couples suppose to have a considerable relationship, and to get married with out even being able to show affection for one another. It is completely impossible.

With sexuality alone, this brings up the question adultery. In the "Virginity and sex in the Christian Religion" thread, "Nicole W" mention a part of the Bible which sets all men up to fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleW View Post
Then there is of course the commandment that says, "thou shall not commit adultery" and Jesus reminds us in Matthew that if one even looks at a woman lustfully, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Information provided from the Kinsley Institute says:

Quote:
54% of men think about sex everyday or several times a day, 43% a few times a month or a few times a week, and 4% less than once a month.
If looking at another woman in a sexual way, or even think about sex is committing adultery, which is the 5th commandment, than than how are men not suppose to break this commandment? God made man to break the rules that he wrote. But its not only impossible for men, but women too.

Another report by the Kinsley Institute says:

Quote:
19% of women think about sex everyday or several times a day, 67% a few times per month or a few times per week, and 14% less than once a month
Therefore, humans do not have the ability to even obey the 5th commandment.

What do you guys think

Last edited by Dylan RRPB1 : 06-27-2007 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 06-27-2007, 08:35 PM #2
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One of the first questions I had ever posed was:

"What if a person does not have a chance to accept Jesus before they die? What if they never get to hear of Jesus, or they were just raised in the wrong religion and never got a fair chance?"
You've posed alot of questions so I'll take them one at a time because sometimes my responses can be long. But I feel I should try and answer your honest questions to the best of my ability, so here goes

As a Catholic, I believe God judges you on the knowledge that you have of him. People who have never had an opportunity to hear of Christ and his Church—and those Christians whose minds have been closed to the truth of the Church by their conditioning—are not necessarily cut off from God’s mercy. Vatican II phrases the doctrine in these terms:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences—those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:
Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).

Obviously, it is not their ignorance that enables them to be saved. Ignorance excuses only lack of knowledge. That which opens the salvation of Christ to them is their conscious effort, under grace, to serve God as well as they can on the basis of the best information they have about him.

The Church speaks of "implicit desire" or "longing" that can exist in the hearts of those who seek God but are ignorant of the means of his grace. If a person longs for salvation but does not know the divinely established means of salvation, he is said to have an implicit desire for membership in the Church. Non-Catholic Christians know Christ, but they do not know his Church. In their desire to serve him, they implicitly desire to be members of his Church. Non-Christians can be saved, said John Paul, if they seek God with "a sincere heart." In that seeking they are "related" to Christ and to his body the Church (address to the CDF).

On the other hand, the Church has long made it clear that if a person rejects the Church with full knowledge and consent, he puts his soul in danger:
They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14)
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Old 06-27-2007, 08:35 PM #3
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I will say this,

Christianity is an idealistic religion, just like almost all religions. Christianity is as idealistic as socialism, and as idealistic as democracy.

Remember that Christianity isn't suppose to be easy to follow. God is suppose to reward you with a great afterlife for eternity if you basically give up the life you have to follow him.

I think there are very few Christians in todays world that are actually Christians. I don't call you Christian if you go to church every week, donate money, and live a nice life. A true Christian is not one that admires Jesus but imitates Jesus. People are afraid to do this, and rightfully so, only if they don't completely believe in an afterlife though. If I truly believed in Christianity, I would give up everything and help the poor, and intimate Jesus. I would love my neighbor, forgive those that hurt me, but I don't believe it enough to do these things.

I always laugh to myself when I see people drive to Church in very nice cars, listen to Jesus helping the poor, people in the bible giving up everything they have to follow Jesus, say Amen, and go get in their BMW, go home, and watch seinfield while eating a steak.
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Old 06-27-2007, 08:43 PM #4
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It has been said in the "Virginity and sex in the Christian Religion" thread, that actions such as kissing a girl/boy with tongue is against the Bible. How are couples suppose to have a considerable relationship, and to get married with out even being able to show affection for one another. It is completely impossible.
French kissing is not always sinful, but some can be. It all depends on levels of arousal really. So then, how much kissing is okay to do? This is from a girl's point of view so bare with me

Here are three guidelines already in your heart for knowing how much is too much:

How much would you want some girl kissing your future husband/wife?
How much kissing would you do with Christ present in the room?
How would your boyfriend kiss you in front of your dad?

These may seem like extreme guidelines, but I think they make sense for three reasons:

1. Girls often do not realize that guys are wired very differently when it comes to sexuality. A girl might have a passionate kiss, and be thinking about her warm fuzzy feelings or even about volleyball practice. She has no problem in her mind expecting that it will be able to stop there. Meanwhile, the guy's body works at a much faster pace, and his sexual desires are being ignited. It's a tease. Perhaps the couple will stop the first or second or third time, but gradually the old boundaries will be pushed back because you begin to experience the intoxicating bonding power that God has in store for you in marriage. I have seen too many young, spiritual relationships get demolished because the couple thought that they could safely sit on the fence of purity. So, allow purity to become your superglue.

2. If you do not end up marrying him, you will never regret telling your future husband how pure you were with your old boyfriend.

3. If you do end up marrying him, then you'll have all the more excitement to share within marriage. In the mean time, you’ll spend more time learning how to express non-physical forms of intimacy that will deepen your love.
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Old 06-27-2007, 08:52 PM #5
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If looking at another woman in a sexual way, or even think about sex is committing adultery, which is the 5th commandment, than than how are men not suppose to break this commandment? God made man to break the rules that he wrote. But its not only impossible for men, but women too.
You can look at another woman and not sin, absolutley. I mean, there is a big difference between looking at a woman and thinking, "She is really attractive and beautiful" and looking at a girl and thinking, "Man, she is hot, those legs, that butt, um, I want to get a piece of that!" The second part is an example of taking it too far and letting admiration and appreciation of one's beauty turn into lusting after them. This also falls to the responsibility of the girl to dress modestly and not be an occassion of temptation and sin by wearing a skirt that could be mistaken for a wide belt!

But again, it is not a sin to recognize the beauty of another. But when we look, and then look again and again, or imagine lustful things, then we have crossed the line. Each person knows in his heart when he if falling short of purity.

Take this story for instance:

In the early Church, two bishops walked out of a cathedral. On the sidewalk walking towards them was a prostitute, dressed very much like one. The first bishop put his head down to avoid seeing her, and the other bishop stared straight at her. As she passed, the bishop with his head down looked to the other bishop and said, "Brother bishop, you can't look. It’s a prosti-" And then he saw tears streaming down the cheeks of the bishop, who said "How sad, that such beauty should be sold to the lusts of men." The prostitute saw how he looked at her, and do you know what she did? She converted, and she's now a canonized saint in the Church: St. Pelagia. The purity of that one man's glance was enough to elevate her back to God.

Now, if you were to ask which bishop did the right thing, they both did. If we can look at a woman with the eyes of Christ, then that is true purity. But if we are not ready, and we are too easily tempted to lust, then we better look elsewhere as God continues to purify our hearts.
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:00 PM #6
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to get married with out even being able to show affection for one another.
Dylan, I know this is some heavy stuff and at 16, it may seem impossible. But I have known quite a few men and women alike who saved themselves for marriage, and all of themselves, not just the sex part. It;s hard, no doubt, but definately possible. And one can be intimate while not being sexual. My husband and I practice Natural Family Planning and there are times when we cannot have sex if we are trying to avoid a pregnancy. But we still learn how to show our love for one another in non-sexual, but very intimate ways! Intimacy and sex are not one in the same thing. A back rub, stroking your wife's hair, caressing a hand, sharing your dreams...these are all examples of sharing intimacy with no sex involved. These are examples of being affectionate with another without crossing the line.

You asked some good questions. If you have any more, fire away

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Old 06-27-2007, 09:01 PM #7
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Lol, alright alright

well

what about killing the homosexuals?
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:14 PM #8
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Lol, alright alright

well

what about killing the homosexuals?
Your funny. You still want to hear from me after all that?

Ok, you are mentioning something from the Old Testament that was not necessarily done away with but was rather fulfilled in the New Testament with Jesus Christ. With the OT, God kind of dealt with humanity in more primitive and simplistic ways...almost like we were children or something because we couldn't fully really understand Him and His plans for us. But Jesus came, God in the flesh, and broke open our hearts and minds. He preached and teached and even said to his disciples in John 15:15, "I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you." We were given the ability to finally know God's will for us and are no longer held accountable to the old covenant but rather adhere to the new, fulfilled covenant in Christ Jesus. Another example of this would be Matthew 5:38-39 when Jesus says, " You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[a] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Again, an example of the old things passing away and being fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Does that help?
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:19 PM #9
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So you are saying, one of the main reasons Jesus came to EArth was to clear up imperfections in the Bible?
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:32 PM #10
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So you are saying, one of the main reasons Jesus came to EArth was to clear up imperfections in the Bible?
Not imperfections. God the Father started something in the Old Testament and Jesus came to fulfill it in the New Testament. And it was done this way out of human imperfection and weakness, not because God made some sort of mistake. No, not at all. God knew what He was doing and it obviously had to be done this way for us to understand it. Again, using the analogy of a child... in the OT, humanity was like an infant and God had to take baby steps with us. We can even see this in our own lives growing up. Our parents tell us to do something and we ask why and they say, "Because I said so." Now they usually give that response because we are too young to understand their reasoning behind their rules and because being adults, they usually know what is best for us. In the OT, God acts in a simialr fashion and we have these primitive and sometimes seemingly crude ways of dealing with His children, like maybe when our parents spanked us when we were younger. But humanity, like ourselves, started to grow up and have a more mature relationship with God. When Jesus came, he didn't treat us like children but like a friend and explained God's ways to us because we were finally able to understand them. As our understanding and spiritual maturity grew, the old covenant of the OT was replaced or fulfilled by the new covenant of the NT.

Does that clarify it more?
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Old 06-27-2007, 09:37 PM #11
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So your saying the reason why God said that was to tell us how seriously homosexuality really was, but he did not actually intend for us to kill them? Well what about the people who took it completely seriously?

and about committing adultery

is it a sin to masterbate because technically adultery must be committed
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:08 PM #12
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and about committing adultery

is it a sin to masterbate because technically adultery must be committed
First off, when Jesus warned that anyone who looks lustfully at a woman commits sin with her in his heart (Matt. 5:28), he spelled it out in no uncertain terms that it's not enough to avoid pregnancy or STDs. He wants us to be pure.

Masturbation conflicts with the whole purpose of sexuality. The act of sexual intercourse is the physical expression of the marriage vows made at the altar. It is therefore an expression of Christian love, i.e. concern for the other. It is the most complete way of expressing the total self-donation of one person to another. Total means until death. It can’t be total for a week or a couple years.

With masturbation there is no self-donation to anybody. It consists of taking pleasure for oneself alone. There is no giving at all. We were created for more than that.

Oh, and let me post something froma site where someone asked the same question

Quote:
Q. Is masturbation a mortal sin? If it is, why?

First, we must understand that our sexual organs are good and beautiful because they were given to us by God for the most noble purpose of continuing the human race. Genesis 1:27-28 says:


"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them. 'Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.'" (NIV)
Our sexual organs were given to us by God; his for her and hers for him so that this command can be fulfilled.

Second, the sex act in marriage is also good and beautiful because of its twofold God-given purpose: for the generation of children, and as an expression of true mutual love between the spouses. God performed the initial act of creation when He formed Adam and took the woman from his side. In the sex act in marriage, the couple is complying with God's command and is in essence performing an act of re-creation; with God's help they are creating a new life.

Masturbation is the deliberate stimulation of the sex organ in order to derive sexual pleasure. As such, it is an act of recreation rather than re-creation and is ordered toward self rather than toward God. The 6th Commandment is "You shall not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:14; Deuteronomy 5:18) and this prohibits any sexual activity except with one's lifelong partner in the Sacrament of Matrimony. Even if you are not married, the teaching of the Catholic Church has always been that the 6th Commandment encompasses all sexual activity. After all, Jesus said that the greatest commandment was that you shall "love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength" (Mark 12:30, NIV) and self-centered recreational sexual activity violates this command.

Last edited by NicoleW : 06-27-2007 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:17 PM #13
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Wait, what? How the **** are you not suppose to masturbate? Thats insane, its not possible.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:24 PM #14
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So your saying the reason why God said that was to tell us how seriously homosexuality really was, but he did not actually intend for us to kill them? Well what about the people who took it completely seriously?

and about committing adultery

is it a sin to masterbate because technically adultery must be committed
Your being very legalistic, you'll need to move beyond this. (legal-list)
There were about 613 laws in the Old Testament, Christ fulfilled the law(s) and earned heaven, we can’t, we don’t have too. The law was a tutor, Galatians 3:24 - you can't be justified by the law. Jesus fulfilled it, you don’t have too. All you have to do is love him and thus your part of the family and you’re included in the inheritance due to your brother paying the price - you’re brother Jesus - thus your free of the law “Love liberates; the law loads” Now you’re love of Jesus will impact your walk and you’ll want to walk it more and more with him
Galatians 4:14-15 You’re not here to serve the list, the legalistic, you’re to have a relationship with Jesus, to have him dwell in your heart.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:25 PM #15
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Wait, what? How the **** are you not suppose to masturbate? Thats insane, its not possible.
Yes it is possible. I know you probably won't believe me but I know a man who has overcome this habit...my husband. He was the one who taught me about the sinfulness of masturbation when we were dating. Let me give you some helpful suggestions in overcoming the habit of both masturbation and something else that usually accompanies it...lust. Remember, for man, it is impossible but for God, all things are possible

Start with prayer and patient perseverance. Before you begin the battle, know that God is pleased with your desire for holiness, and that his grace is working in your life. He will complete the good work he has begun in you (Phil 1:6). Come to him in prayer and ask him often for the grace to be pure, and specifically to overcome this habit. The number one prayer you can offer is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. There is enough grace in one Holy Communion to make you a saint. Tap into that fountain of purity!

Spend an increased amount of time in personal prayer as well, and speak openly to Jesus about your struggles. Also, pray three Hail Mary's each day for purity of mind, body, and heart; frequent the Sacrament of Reconciliation; read Scripture; pray the Rosary; make the Stations of the Cross; and develop a devotion to Saint Joseph. These form an arsenal of weapons against any sin. Use them often, and you will either stop the sin, or you will stop these prayers and good habits. They cannot last long together.

If you need to confess the same sin repeatedly, do so. The devil will try to discourage you, saying, "Hey, you've been back in the confessional fourteen times with this sin. Why don't you give up? You can't win." Recognize these thoughts as a temptation and turn immediately to prayer. Know that the patient is healed who shows his wound to the physician. The confessional is the medicine box, Christ in the priest is the doctor, and that is the last place the devil wants you to be. You are on the winning team, and the Lord will not let you be snatched from his hand. You can't do it alone, but you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength (Phil. 4:13).

Certainly, if you own any pornography, swimsuit posters, vulgar music and such, get rid of them immediately. For the sake of love, guard yourself against such contamination. Replace these things with good Christian music and put holy images in your room, especially where you usually fall into the sin. If you have a habit of watching a lot of TV, find something else to do, such as exercise. This helps release tension, and makes the body easier to master. Television is idleness filled with temptation, and that is kindling for the fires of lust.

To help you grow in discipline, set reachable goals. For example, make a commitment not to masturbate for three days, a week, a month, or whatever you feel is a reasonable time. When you've made it to that point, you'll have an increased sense of confidence that you do have control over your body. Then, bump up the time and abstain for a longer period. Keep this up until the vice is overcome.

During this time of discipline, give up tiny things. For example, skip salt on your fries, or skip seconds at a meal. These small sacrifices will help you grow in self-mastery, so that you gain self-control. After all, we're slaves to whatever rules us. The difference is like that between a jockey who has no control over his horse which gallops wildly through gardens and living rooms, and a jockey who has control, and can win races and stop on a dime. That is a person fully alive. This kind of self-control is impossible alone, but with the grace of God, all things are possible. If you ask for purity, not one grace will be lacking. Be patient with yourself, and do not give in to discouragement. According to the Gospel of Luke, "In patience you shall possess your soul" (Lk. 21:19). The prize of true love awaits those that are truly free, because they are the only ones capable of giving and receiving.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:32 PM #16
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Lol, alright alright

well

what about killing the homosexuals?

where in the bible does it justify killing homosexuals?
we do not follow OT laws, we are mostly supposed to follow NT laws, and homosexuality is not natural, you are not born a homosexual as some may say, most people actually, for lack of a better word are 'recruted', now don't take that meaning to the extremes, like there are boths out having gays saying "join us now!".
but if you look in media and entertainment, there are many homosexual influences that descensatise people to them.

homosexuality is basically a perversion of the mind, plain and simple.
i personally think it's a mental disorder, not a gene or something bread into you.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:34 PM #17
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Alright, I understand. That makes a lot of sense. But quick question, is it really that bad to listen to a band that cusses every once in a while. Above you said to get rid of vulgar music immediately.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:36 PM #18
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where in the bible does it justify killing homosexuals?
we do not follow OT laws, we are mostly supposed to follow NT laws, and homosexuality is not natural, you are not born a homosexual as some may say, most people actually, for lack of a better word are 'recruted', now don't take that meaning to the extremes, like there are boths out having gays saying "join us now!".
but if you look in media and entertainment, there are many homosexual influences that descensatise people to them.

homosexuality is basically a perversion of the mind, plain and simple.
i personally think it's a mental disorder, not a gene or something bread into you.
Prove this using conrete facts and evidence please. Psychology and Biology would disgree with you. Since you disagree with Psychological and Biological evidence, please provide the proof that you have which proves modern science wrong.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:47 PM #19
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Alright, I understand. That makes a lot of sense. But quick question, is it really that bad to listen to a band that cusses every once in a while. Above you said to get rid of vulgar music immediately.
Hey you must be a mind reader or something I have yet another answer to your question when someone asked a similar question. Great, great questions you are asking though

Quote:
If a song that I like has a few sexual lyrics, does that make it wrong to listen to?

A. I remember a friend of mine once saying, "If it's not of God, then I don't want anything to do with it." Life for her was black and white, and all she cared about was glorifying God with the short amount of time he's given us all on earth. So, if you know a song has parts that are displeasing to God and are likely to spiritually drag you down, listen to another CD.

When speaking of impure subjects, St. Josemaria Escriva says, "Never talk of impure things or events, not even to deplore them. Look, it's a subject that sticks more than tar. Change the conversation, or if that's not possible, continue, but speaking of the need and beauty of holy purity—a virtue of the men who know what their souls are worth." Elsewhere he adds, "I have never talked about impurity. . . . But I have spoken many times, as I have to do, about chastity, purity, and the joyful affirmation of love."

Getting rid of music you like is like having an amputation. It’s painful. At the beginning of my conversion, I had tons of music that I wouldn’t exactly want to sing in church. But I didn’t want to let go of it. It was “my” music, and I liked it. I figured, “I’m not a bad person because of it. I’m not going to go have a one-night stand after listening to it. I just like the music.” So I clung to it. But God has a funny way of asking for things that we don’t want to give up.

I didn’t want to be all fanatical about it, so I just started by getting rid of my absolute worst CD. There comes a feeling of peace when you know you’re giving something up for the love of God. So, in time I let go of one CD after another. So, give it a shot. Give him your worst, and he’ll give you his best.
I wouldn't say it is necessarily horrible or a sin, but I also would say that it isn't doing you any good or instilling virtues in you in the meantime.

Last edited by NicoleW : 06-27-2007 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:52 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DYE baller FOR life View Post
where in the bible does it justify killing homosexuals?
we do not follow OT laws, we are mostly supposed to follow NT laws, and homosexuality is not natural, you are not born a homosexual as some may say, most people actually, for lack of a better word are 'recruted', now don't take that meaning to the extremes, like there are boths out having gays saying "join us now!".
but if you look in media and entertainment, there are many homosexual influences that descensatise people to them.

homosexuality is basically a perversion of the mind, plain and simple.
i personally think it's a mental disorder, not a gene or something bread into you.
Guys, for the sake of staying on topic, lets not get into a debate about the nature vs. nurture issue of homosexuality. Let's rather try and answer the question Dylan originally posted regarding homosexuality, which was:

"Here the Bible is saying that we should live in a society where we kill homosexuals. How are we suppose to go about following this? Why in the Bible
does it ask us to be kind, but only to the people that are just like us? Are the homosexuals just doomed from the start?"
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:09 AM #21
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Originally Posted by warbeak2099 View Post
Prove this using conrete facts and evidence please. Psychology and Biology would disgree with you. Since you disagree with Psychological and Biological evidence, please provide the proof that you have which proves modern science wrong.
the answer has been given many times and you have read it. It's a perversion, place it to evil spirit, an evil mind. Use PRAYER to conquer it. Hey, it may happen overnight, it may take years. It’s all about your walk with Christ, which is not a scientific event but a spiritual one. WB, you have a spritial being, it comes thru in your posts, use it for good. Don’t always follow mans answer or look for hard proof, Faith will take you further. Faith in self, God and the saving grace of Christ. NicoleW makes great points.
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