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Old 06-27-2007, 12:36 PM #85
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No that's ok. The thing is, annecdotes do not provide evidence. If you can provide me numbers of people who have said that premarital sex have caused problems with their relationship, then ok. But even still, you'd have to show that everyone everywhere who have had premarital sex have experienced relationship problems because of it.
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Old 06-27-2007, 12:39 PM #86
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It is suprisingly difficult to find information regarding the counterpoint. But I did my best.

NY Times article on the effectiveness of abstinance-only education.

A great site about divorce rates. I point you to the age distribution on the first page. How much lower would the divorce rate be if everyone waited until they were 30 to commit?

"Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significently higher than for other faith groups, and for Atheists and Agnostics."
Barna Project Director Meg Flammang said: "We would love to be able to report that Christians are living very distinct lives and impacting the community, but ... in the area of divorce rates they continue to be the same."
source
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Old 06-27-2007, 01:31 PM #87
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Definately not talking about abstinence talks, more a training and understanding of chastity, which can last an entire persons' life, even throughout marriage. I know they sound very similar but abstinence and chastity are not the same thing.
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Old 06-27-2007, 01:44 PM #88
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No that's ok. The thing is, annecdotes do not provide evidence. If you can provide me numbers of people who have said that premarital sex have caused problems with their relationship, then ok. But even still, you'd have to show that everyone everywhere who have had premarital sex have experienced relationship problems because of it.
I mean, even if I showed you a stat that said 99% of couples had problems, you would point to that 1% and say, "See, not everyone!" If you really love your gf, and I'm sure you do, why take a chance? If the majority of people can get hurt emotionally from premarital sex when and if the relationship ends, why would you want to put the girl you love through that? Wouldn't the more loving thing be to try and protect her heart from such pain? Why would you go with the lower statsistic? Did you know that couples who sleep together prior to their wedding night are three times as likely to divorce as couples who save it. With the divorce rate already high enough, why add more fuel to the fire? Don't you want to give your relationship the best odds possible and a future marriage a good start?

Furthermore, what if you guys break up? A person's heart is not made to be that close to a person and then separated. It's almost as if an emotional divorce takes place.

Listen, it seems like maybe you have had enough with what I have to say, and thats totally cool. I don't want to annoy or bother you. You just responded to a post I made and so I continued the dialogue. I know last time we talked in another thread you kinda just didn't want to hear it anymore and I see you are may be getting to that same point. Like I said, I'm not here to down on you or make you feel bad about your relationship. If you care about the other side of the story, I'm here. If not, thats ok too.
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Old 06-27-2007, 01:58 PM #89
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Well the thing is I don't need to protect her. I am not her keeper, this isn't 19th century Victorian England. She and I are adults and therefore we sit down and make decisions together as equals. That significantly reduces the risk of emotional harm or misunderstandings.

As for taking chances, that what life is about. We decided to take the chance and so far our relationship has benefited. The fact is, you have showed me that the statistics are much closer. It's not 99%. You have shown numbers between 60 and 70 percent. That shows that 30 to 40 percent of couples were not harmed by their decision to have sex before marriage.

Choosing abstinence is also a chance. Abstinence could put stress and hardship on a perfectly good relationship. That could either strengthen it or break it. You are taking a chance.
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:17 PM #90
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Well the thing is I don't need to protect her. I am not her keeper, this isn't 19th century Victorian England. She and I are adults and therefore we sit down and make decisions together as equals. That significantly reduces the risk of emotional harm or misunderstandings.

As for taking chances, that what life is about. We decided to take the chance and so far our relationship has benefited. The fact is, you have showed me that the statistics are much closer. It's not 99%. You have shown numbers between 60 and 70 percent. That shows that 30 to 40 percent of couples were not harmed by their decision to have sex before marriage.

Choosing abstinence is also a chance. Abstinence could put stress and hardship on a perfectly good relationship. That could either strengthen it or break it. You are taking a chance.
But, if you said, "Hey, no more sex" and she left you because of it, then you know what your relationship was really based on...the sex. Thats what was most imporatant because without it, she's long gone. But if your relationship is based on something more, like the fact that she really loves you and that there is no one else like you and she couldn't imagine being without you, then you know what the relationship is based on....who you are as a person. That its not the sex that she loves (though I'm sure a guy wouldn't mind hearing that) its you that she loves. If a relationship is over because of sex, was that relationship really worth keeping?

It's your life though. I'm not here to tell you what to do. I just don't want you to think that a girl won't love you unless you do that with her, ya know. It's the love test when you take sex out of the picture. You get to see what that person is really all about. You may lose the relationship out of it but who really needs a relationship like that. But if they stick around, wow, you have someone great!!! Someone who will likely be your future spouse.

What would you do if your gf said she didn't want to have sex anymore because she loved you and wanted what was best for you and your future. How would you feel about that? Would you be ok with not having sex with her until you got married?
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:50 PM #91
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I'm not going to reports this. Instead I'll put it to you this way: if you told me that face to face, I'd flatten you. He's my blood and you don't have the right. Just watch what you say.
It's funny how I take your side. I do not even know you, yet, I can see from far away that your brother has wronged you. Its your brother dude. You obviously appreciate him more than he appreciates you, because your taking his side even when he doing something wrong to you. So you believe that it is "ok" for him to ignore. **** off man. I was just helping.
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:54 PM #92
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It's funny how I take your side. I do not even know you, yet, I can see from far away that your brother has wronged you. Its your brother dude. You obviously appreciate him more than he appreciates you, because your taking his side even when he doing something wrong to you. So you believe that it is "ok" for him to ignore. **** off man. I was just helping.
It's kind of like when you sit there and complain to a friend about how much you hate your parents and then your friend says, "Yeah, your dad's a jerk and your mom is fat. I hate them too." You would probably be really mad at your friend because sure, you can talk about your parents, but they are still your parents and you don't like it when other people talk about them. Same idea, you know.
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Old 06-27-2007, 07:06 PM #93
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Definately not talking about abstinence talks, more a training and understanding of chastity, which can last an entire persons' life, even throughout marriage. I know they sound very similar but abstinence and chastity are not the same thing.
If anything, the rules of chastity are far more strict than abstinance alone.

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I mean, even if I showed you a stat that said 99% of couples had problems, you would point to that 1% and say, "See, not everyone!" If you really love your gf, and I'm sure you do, why take a chance? If the majority of people can get hurt emotionally from premarital sex when and if the relationship ends, why would you want to put the girl you love through that? Wouldn't the more loving thing be to try and protect her heart from such pain? Why would you go with the lower statsistic? Did you know that couples who sleep together prior to their wedding night are three times as likely to divorce as couples who save it. With the divorce rate already high enough, why add more fuel to the fire? Don't you want to give your relationship the best odds possible and a future marriage a good start?
Sure you want the best odds, but what if your relationship falls into that 30-40% range where the sex would make it stronger and withholding it would weaken it?
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Furthermore, what if you guys break up? A person's heart is not made to be that close to a person and then separated. It's almost as if an emotional divorce takes place.
Everything ends, you just have to be able to mourn properly and then continue on in life. The cheese stands alone.

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But, if you said, "Hey, no more sex" and she left you because of it, then you know what your relationship was really based on...the sex. Thats what was most imporatant because without it, she's long gone. But if your relationship is based on something more, like the fact that she really loves you and that there is no one else like you and she couldn't imagine being without you, then you know what the relationship is based on....who you are as a person. That its not the sex that she loves (though I'm sure a guy wouldn't mind hearing that) its you that she loves. If a relationship is over because of sex, was that relationship really worth keeping?
Relationships based on sex have brought me closer to your gender than anything else ever. Without them I wouldn't understand nearly as much about how a woman works mentally. I now have the ability to read a woman's body language and facial expressions to determine her emotional state. This let's me make a woman very very happy. And I'm not just talking about the bedroom.
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It's your life though. I'm not here to tell you what to do. I just don't want you to think that a girl won't love you unless you do that with her, ya know. It's the love test when you take sex out of the picture. You get to see what that person is really all about. You may lose the relationship out of it but who really needs a relationship like that. But if they stick around, wow, you have someone great!!! Someone who will likely be your future spouse.
When you remove sex from a loving relationship you are left with the same kind of love that two men could have for one another. Why would you want to remove the one thing that makes your relationship special and unique from the other gender?
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What would you do if your gf said she didn't want to have sex anymore because she loved you and wanted what was best for you and your future. How would you feel about that? Would you be ok with not having sex with her until you got married?
No. But frankly, I'm not in a place yet where I want to settle down with one person. So no sex until marriage for me means no sex for the next 13 years. I don't think the woman would last that long either. Actually, I know that she wouldn't. Women cheat more often than men.

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It's funny how I take your side. I do not even know you, yet, I can see from far away that your brother has wronged you. Its your brother dude. You obviously appreciate him more than he appreciates you, because your taking his side even when he doing something wrong to you. So you believe that it is "ok" for him to ignore. **** off man. I was just helping.
You weren't helping. You insulted my blood, I'm Irish, I take that very personally. I don't know you and you don't know me so I'm gonna side with my brother before I side with you.
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Old 06-27-2007, 08:23 PM #94
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If anything, the rules of chastity are far more strict than abstinance alone.
Alot of responses to deal with. I will try and answer all the things you brought up as time permits with my 2 infants...so if my response gets long, I will try and split my posts up. Sound good

Ok, so the 'rules' of chastity were easier for me because it wasn't about just not having sex. I had heard abstinent only talks before where it was all about fear, pregnancy and STDS. While it scared me for a little into not having sex, it never lasted. It never changed my heart. But reading and learning about chastity did. I realized that it wasn't about a bunch of no, no, no's and fear but was all about love and saying yes, yes, yes to glorifying God with my body in all I do, whether I be married or single.

As I see it, there are two ways to live and to love. One way sees temptations as obstacles to virtue, demanding a constant need to say "NO!" in order to obey all of God's seemingly burdensome laws. It is a life that is based upon "Thou shalt nots." Every day is an exhausting struggle to avoid offending God. If we live like that, then it would be pretty hard saying "no" all the time.

Here is the alternative way: Instead of living life trying not to offend God, live life trying to glorify him. Live each moment as an act of worship to God. Instead of seeing temptations of lust as obstacles to holiness, see overcoming them as the very means to holiness. Certainly this involves avoiding temptation and saying "no" to sin, but the motivation is the "yes" of true love.

So, the virtue of purity is not first a "no" to illicit sex, but a "yes" to authentic love. It is a "yes" to the truth of the goodness of our bodies and the gift of sex. It is not a prolonged series of "no"s but a continual "yes" to Jesus.
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Old 06-27-2007, 08:44 PM #95
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Sure you want the best odds, but what if your relationship falls into that 30-40% range where the sex would make it stronger and withholding it would weaken it?

But what is the motivation of going with the riskier statistic? Is it out of true love and a desire to do what is best for the other and wanting to see the relationship last...or is it out of selfishness and a desire to take a chance so you can have your cake and eat it too, sort of speak. And in the long run, I have never seen a real life relationship nor a statistic that points to premarital sex being a benefit to a future marriage. It seems to be the exact opposite. If withholding sex from a dating relationship out of love for the other person leads to it being weakened, then that person does not really love and care about you as much as they think they do. They care more about themselves. I mean, there are a few more possibilities than that like they are afraid of losing you, or have insecurites of their own, ect. but these are all not good things. Staying pure within a relationship and having it be done out of love has never proven to be detrimental to a relationship and if it has, that relationship was detrimental to the person involved in it.

Everything ends, you just have to be able to mourn properly and then continue on in life. The cheese stands alone.
Not everything ends. Marriage is suppose to be forever. Of course everything ends in the sense that we die, but Iam just talking about things of this world. But one thing that never ends is our relationship with God, so why not live our life for God? We will find happiness and peace while being alive and even more of it when we die and spend eternity with Our Lord. It's a win-win situation.
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Old 06-27-2007, 10:22 PM #96
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But, if you said, "Hey, no more sex" and she left you because of it, then you know what your relationship was really based on...the sex. Thats what was most imporatant because without it, she's long gone. But if your relationship is based on something more, like the fact that she really loves you and that there is no one else like you and she couldn't imagine being without you, then you know what the relationship is based on....who you are as a person. That its not the sex that she loves (though I'm sure a guy wouldn't mind hearing that) its you that she loves. If a relationship is over because of sex, was that relationship really worth keeping?

It's your life though. I'm not here to tell you what to do. I just don't want you to think that a girl won't love you unless you do that with her, ya know. It's the love test when you take sex out of the picture. You get to see what that person is really all about. You may lose the relationship out of it but who really needs a relationship like that. But if they stick around, wow, you have someone great!!! Someone who will likely be your future spouse.

What would you do if your gf said she didn't want to have sex anymore because she loved you and wanted what was best for you and your future. How would you feel about that? Would you be ok with not having sex with her until you got married?
We dated 3 years without intercourse. We know what the relationship is really based on. We decided together that it was appropriate to take the relationship to the next level. Our relationship is built on three factors. Spirituality, sexuality, and mind. Mind, body, and spirit basically. A clock cannot work without all its gears. If you ripped one out of the equation, the clock don't tick.
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Old 06-27-2007, 10:43 PM #97
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We dated 3 years without intercourse. We know what the relationship is really based on. We decided together that it was appropriate to take the relationship to the next level. Our relationship is built on three factors. Spirituality, sexuality, and mind. Mind, body, and spirit basically. A clock cannot work without all its gears. If you ripped one out of the equation, the clock don't tick.
I understand why you feel sex is such an integral part of your relationship, its suppose to be... just not in a dating relationship but a married one. Woman and man are meant to come together in that way. We were designed for it! And everyone wants love. Everyone longs to give himself or herself to another. We’re made for love, and that need in us is so deep that many would rather risk getting pregnant or getting an STD than live without love. We may be willing to take these risks because the world tells us that sex equals love. Then we see relationships in which sex destroyed love, and we wonder what went wrong. The only solution capable of breaking through this hurt and confusion is the virtue known as chastity.

Chastity is a virtue (like courage or honesty) that applies to a person’s sexuality. It means that you take all of your sexual desires and order them according to the demands of real love. For example, when you love a person, you make whatever sacrifice is best for them and you do whatever is necessary to keep from harming them. Chastity means that you take this definition of love and apply it to sex.

Some think that chastity simply means “no sex.” But that’s abstinence: focusing on what you can’t do and can’t have. Chastity is what you can do and can have, right now: a lifestyle that brings freedom, respect, peace, and even romance—without regret. Chastity frees a couple from the selfish attitude of using each other as objects, thus making them capable of true love.

A relationship should be a mind, body and soul experience but it should be appropriate to the relationship. You wouldn't imagine doing some of the bodily things you do with your gf with say a relative or whomever. Certain expressions of ourselves are meant to be within the confines of certain relationships. Sex should be in the confines of marriage because it is a total gift of self. It is saying to another with your body that you are totally, freely and forever theirs. That you literally give them your self. Until you make that absolute commitment to them in marriage, sex should wait for the sake of the beloved. You would not want to take that gift of sex from them and someday not be there nor would you want them to give that gift to someone else.

Btw, you have been very nice in discussing this with me and again, I appreciate it. If I was in your shoes, and remember I was, I would find it difficult to not get upset. Hey, I'm Italian though, I have a quick temper and a stubborn nature...trying to work on that though But thanks again for not getting defensive and keeoing your cool I know this is a hard and very personal topic to discuss.
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Old 06-27-2007, 10:55 PM #98
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Relationships based on ...
Tom, don't think I have forgotten about the rest of your points. I just have to get to bed right now. But tomorrow I will pick up where I left off. Talk to you guys soon
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Old 06-27-2007, 10:59 PM #99
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:05 PM #100
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So you're telling me to basically that I should adhere to Christan morality which preaches that sex is only for marriage. I thought we had already established that I am not Christian. If not, I am a Naturalistic Pantheist and my beliefs are very different from Christianity's. So it would be somewhat silly for me to live by beliefs that I don't agree with.

Before we were having a mature conversation about sexuality and its role in the relationship. Now you are witnessing me. I am more than a little insulted. The conversation is over as far as I'm concerned. I am Italian as well, Sicilian at that. But my temper aside, I am insulted that you would try to turn the conversation away from a reason based discussion to stating Christian beliefs as fact and trying to get me to "see the light."
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:05 PM #101
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We dated 3 years without intercourse. We know what the relationship is really based on. We decided together that it was appropriate to take the relationship to the next level. Our relationship is built on three factors. Spirituality, sexuality, and mind. Mind, body, and spirit basically. A clock cannot work without all its gears. If you ripped one out of the equation, the clock don't tick.
Well alright I will say 3 years is a long time. But, I will say this, I came to a conclusion on pre-marital sex tonight. I was reading, and found out that couples that have or had pre-marital sex are way more likely to get a divorce than those who do not.

I figured this: The first time you ****, people get attached. Even if they are not even close to being right for eachother. As of right now, I am watching my friend who lost virginity to his girlfriend go down the drain. The worste part is even his family hates the girl, and hes only 16. The kids willing to do anything for her, and shes just a stuck up ***** thats taken advantage of it.

I think that if you were married, and then brought sex into the relationship, then that means sex is the ultimate bond between man and woman, not marriage. It is just best to become that attached after marriage.

But, 3 years is a long time...
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:16 PM #102
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So you're telling me to basically that I should adhere to Christan morality which preaches that sex is only for marriage. I thought we had already established that I am not Christian. If not, I am a Naturalistic Pantheist and my beliefs are very different from Christianity's. So it would be somewhat silly for me to live by beliefs that I don't agree with.

Before we were having a mature conversation about sexuality and its role in the relationship. Now you are witnessing me. I am more than a little insulted. The conversation is over as far as I'm concerned. I am Italian as well, Sicilian at that. But my temper aside, I am insulted that you would try to turn the conversation away from a reason based discussion to stating Christian beliefs as fact and trying to get me to "see the light."
Hey, hey, hey. Why do you do that? You did it last time. It;s like all the sudden you get frustrated and find a reason to write me off. When in my last post to you did I mention Christ or christianity? I believe sex is meant for marriage for many other reasons than my faith. The reason I mentioned that it should be in marriage because I think the relationship in which you have sex with someone should be one that lasts forever because sex is that special.

I mean, if you don't want to talk with me anymore, just say so. You know I am not trying to insult you and if I did so inadvertently, Iam sorry. But out of nowhere you just end it. Thats ffine, I left you alone the first time when you asked and I will do so again now if you wish. I only talked with you about this because you engaged me in conversation by previously quoting a post I made to another poster. It's not like I am trying to follow you around and convert you. Again, if you just are tired of talking with me about this, just say so.

Btw, this thread is called Virgnity and sex in the Christian Religion.

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Old 06-27-2007, 11:21 PM #103
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Well alright I will say 3 years is a long time. But, I will say this, I came to a conclusion on pre-marital sex tonight. I was reading, and found out that couples that have or had pre-marital sex are way more likely to get a divorce than those who do not.

I figured this: The first time you ****, people get attached. Even if they are not even close to being right for eachother. As of right now, I am watching my friend who lost virginity to his girlfriend go down the drain. The worste part is even his family hates the girl, and hes only 16. The kids willing to do anything for her, and shes just a stuck up ***** thats taken advantage of it.

I think that if you were married, and then brought sex into the relationship, then that means sex is the ultimate bond between man and woman, not marriage. It is just best to become that attached after marriage.

But, 3 years is a long time...
Hey, how come he got banned?

But to his point, and he made a good one...yeah there is a definate physical attachment once a couple has sex. And I am not just talking about emotional attachment either. Iam talking about physical, hormonal, biological attachment. And this attachment can really cloud one's judgement too when making decisions.

You see oxytocin is a neuro-peptide most commonly associated with pregnancy and breastfeeding. It seems to act as a human "superglue," helping a mother bond with her infant. It is also released during sexual arousal and there, too, seems to work as a "superglue." Since estrogen enhances the oxytocin response, females are capable of more intense bonding than males, and are more susceptible to the suffering that accompanies broken bonds.(6) According to an article by Dr. John Diggs and Dr. Eric Keroack, "People who have misused their sexual faculty and become bonded to multiple persons will diminish the power of oxytocin to maintain a permanent bond with an individual."(7)

In more basic terms, sharing the gift of sex is like putting a piece of tape on another person's arm. The first bond is strong and it hurts to remove it. Shift the tape to another person's arm and the bond will still work but it will be easier to remove. Each time this is done, part of each person remains with the tape. Soon it is easy to remove because the residue from the various arms interferes with the tape's ability to stick. The same is true in relationships, where previous sexual experiences interfere with the ability to bond.

But a sexual relationship that is properly bonded from the start, such as that between two virgins on their wedding night, has one advantage among many: Oxytocin helps to maintain the "high" of sex in a long-term relationship. This does not mean that if a person is not a virgin on the wedding night, he or she will be unable to bond with a spouse. It simply means that when we follow God's plan, we have the most abundant life possible.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:22 PM #104
warbeak2099
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It's not me who's doing anything. You all of a sudden began stating your beliefs as fact. You just come out and tell me that SEX IS FOR MARRIAGE AND THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. Before, we were having an intelligent discussion and were both respecting each other's beliefs. You crossed the line though. You crossed the line before and you've done it again.

Like I said, I didn't have frusteration building up. It's just that the second you begin to state opinions as facts, I am insulted that my trust has been breached. I trusted that we were having an exchange of each other's opinions on the matter. That's not possible when all of a sudden you come out with, "No that's wrong because sex is for marriage!"

This is why Derr is estranged from his brother. You people just are obsessed with proving that my relationship is going to fail because your religion does not agree with my gf's and my choices. You subtly insult me and refuse to allow me to have an opinion.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:27 PM #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warbeak2099 View Post
It's not me who's doing anything. You all of a sudden began stating your beliefs as fact. You just come out and tell me that SEX IS FOR MARRIAGE AND THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. Before, we were having an intelligent discussion and were both respecting each other's beliefs. You crossed the line though. You crossed the line before and you've done it again.

Like I said, I didn't have frusteration building up. It's just that the second you begin to state opinions as facts, I am insulted that my trust has been breached. I trusted that we were having an exchange of each other's opinions on the matter. That's not possible when all of a sudden you come out with, "No that's wrong because sex is for marriage!"
But everything I say is what I believe. Sure, I may have some stats here and there but I may get something different from them than you based on what I believe. Are you pulling a Rambo on me and saying I should state, "I believe" before evry post? I mean, this is all about what I believe. Some is from my faith, others from personal experience, others from research and stats on relationships and the human body. It's all about what I believe to be true.
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