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Old 06-14-2007, 09:07 PM #22
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no the bolt needs to go a certain distance forward and back- im sure the designers of teh gun have thought of that, its pretty simple. you wanna find out? look down your breech and see where the bolt is. chance is that it is flush with the back of teh breech already.

no teh ram cant be longer. the valve would open before the bolt would fully seal

no it cant be further forward or the balls wont laod or they will chop...or it wont get enough momentum to open teh valve

yes the ram does need to be a certain weight or there will not need to be enough speed to open the valve. yes you can upp pressure, but that will affect kick. there is a magic number to how low you can go for optimal efficiency. my guess is if glenn put out a light weight ram, its probably close to that perfect weight.

2 ram o rings? well if teh 1 o ring isnt leaking or letting air by why would 2 make any difference at all? if 1 seals 100% of teh air, then the second one will be pointless. after all o rings are there to seal air.

i sapose you could try to find out if a balanced valve would have an effect. generally it lowers lpr pressure, but the legend doesnt have one. so i guess it would lower overall force= operatin pressure, but that might make it too low to shoot a paintball if you lower it too much UNLESS you make a very very high flowing balanced valve that would allow low pressure at the same velocity.

a higher flowing bolt if that is possible? high flow barb kit?
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Old 06-14-2007, 10:38 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikey View Post
2 ram o rings? well if teh 1 o ring isnt leaking or letting air by why would 2 make any difference at all? if 1 seals 100% of teh air, then the second one will be pointless. after all o rings are there to seal air.
We are talking about 2 ram BUMPER o-rings. Sorry for the confusion. but i guess then the ram would be to far forward and still not let balls feed to the breach. Hmm.
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Old 06-14-2007, 11:17 PM #24
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ok i will also edit my first post...after putting half a brain cell into it i now know you could only replace the bumper o-ring with a material that when compressed it is the same width, but it is also softer and thus reduces kick. i am in no way not satisfies with my legend's kick, jsut laways brainstorming how to mak the best even better. possibly some material like foamy like a sponge that when the ram is in the back position it is same size as the o-ring, but when the ram goes forward it has room to expand and when the ram coems back again it squishes it to the size of the original o-ring, but along the way the spongey thing absorbs more energy and reduces kick. to save time i will just copy and paste this into the first post.
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Old 06-15-2007, 09:34 AM #25
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lighter ram

Quote:
Originally Posted by weasleyclark View Post
agreed, but using that method at all wouldn't work.

And the idea i had for making a lighter but strong ram, would be to use a honeycomb design on it. At least on the inside. My dad is a drafter and uses solidworks, and he said you could do it but you'd have to have a mold maker, its a certain type of 3-d laser mold printer.

basically the inside of the ram is of a honeycomb type of design, and the outside is solid, so it is still strong but a bunch lighter. And the honey comb design is used on the president's plane. They use the panels and then put wood over it, so it's light but still looks nice. So if he can use it, why can't we?

The problem with a lighter ram is you still need so much force to open the valve. As we know from high school physcis F=1/2mv^2. So if the weight of the ram(M) gets lighter, you have less force behind it to open the valve. That means to compensate you have to increase the speed at which the ram travels...meaning more pressure. Now I don't know if they used any calculus to determine the optimum weight/force relationship in the ram, but basically it's not going to do any good. The gun will kick with roughly the same force because you need the same force to open the valve.

The other thing to consider is that since the legend has no LPR the valve pressure and ram pressure are the same. So.....you can't really increase the pressure in the ram alone. You may have one or two grams to play with in either direction but I'm sure Infinity already tested different weights to find the one that worked best, with the most efficient dwell setting.

In other words........play paintball forget about modding the gun lol. Rock the stock!
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Old 06-15-2007, 12:40 PM #26
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i didnt know if the one o ring on the ram sealed it completely ... it was just an idea if it didnt but it sounds like its pretty air tight so scratch that idea

lightening the ram would be benificial because force is more dependent on speed than mass ... so even if you did need to make it faster it wouldnt need to be much faster

plus lighter rams mean less reciprocating mass which means less kick .. but we already have a lightened ram so there ya go
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Old 06-15-2007, 03:46 PM #27
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kickishness

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i didnt know if the one o ring on the ram sealed it completely ... it was just an idea if it didnt but it sounds like its pretty air tight so scratch that idea

lightening the ram would be benificial because force is more dependent on speed than mass ... so even if you did need to make it faster it wouldnt need to be much faster

plus lighter rams mean less reciprocating mass which means less kick .. but we already have a lightened ram so there ya go

The ram oring seals, if it didn't you'd hear a constant leak.

Yes but you can't get more speed out of it witout also making the pressure in the valve higher as well, since the gun has no LPR. That's the problem.

Less kick is negligable. The force the ram needs behind it is finite until you change the dwell. So if you need 10 newtons to open the valve with the stock ram, you'll need 10 newtons to open the valve with the lightened ram too(which means you will feel 10 newtons of force). The only way to change that is to change your dwell and keep the valve open for a longer or shorter time, which in turn will kill efficiency and or make the gun harder on paint. You have to sacrifice one thing to gain another. Basically if the gun ain't broken, don't fix it. It would be a lot of work and not really worth the effort I think.

If kick really concerns you, add a stainless steel barrel and a nice heavy hopper to the top of the gun. That'll do more than any mods. A light gun will always kick more than a heavy one. Other than that I think the best bet would be to try different bumper materials. Or adding a rubber head on the tip of the ram. Does the stock ram connect with the valve body when you fire? If it does you could shave a tad off the ram so it doesn't do that. That will help some.
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Old 06-15-2007, 09:53 PM #28
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exatly what this guy above said people...i am not trying to do a funky top hat like mod like they have for matrixes, i am interested and only interested in different bumper material like somethins soft/spongy and absorbant with energ. and i like the idea of shaving the back of the ram if it touches the body..that could work.
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Old 06-17-2007, 12:10 AM #29
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I know on my alien remains when the ram shoots forward it opens the poppet valve and then stops just short of hitting the actual valve. That prevents metal on metal contact between the ram and valve which also helps reduce some of the kick/vibration. Then there is a bumper to absorb some shock on the back stroke and inside the ram there is another bumper to absorb shock on the front stroke as well. So all in all it's a pretty kickless gun for a poppet style.
If the ram of the legend actually hits the valve, then maybe there is a way to prevent that. Does anyone have a pic of the inside of the gun? I don't actually know wthat it looks like inside so I can't say.
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Old 06-17-2007, 12:12 AM #30
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Old 06-17-2007, 09:52 AM #31
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on page one i suggested something like a titanum ram like what the egos have...
yes glenn gave us a new lightened ram...but he based it off of using the stock spring.

if we get a titanium ram with a lightened spring like egos have then we will have a much lighter ram that will make the legend more efficient and have less kick because:

1-it will be more efficient because it is a much lighter ram with a lighter spring so you can use a lot less air to make it move at the same speed of the stock ram thus having no problem opening the valve.

2- it will have less kick because it is lighter.


just a thought...
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Old 06-17-2007, 11:40 AM #32
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yah titanium ram and lightned spring would own. But the lightened spring would wear out faster wouldn't it?
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:16 PM #33
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[quote=deadlymystery;36667518]on page one i suggested something like a titanum ram like what the egos have...
yes glenn gave us a new lightened ram...but he based it off of using the stock spring.

if we get a titanium ram with a lightened spring like egos have then we will have a much lighter ram that will make the legend more efficient and have less kick because:

1-it will be more efficient because it is a much lighter ram with a lighter spring so you can use a lot less air to make it move at the same speed of the stock ram thus having no problem opening the valve.

Not entirely true. If you were to use less air in the LPR to drive the ram, the lighter spring in the valve may also create a condition where the valve is open longer, therefore killing efficiency. So you'll gain at one point, and lose at another. It might work.....but don't assume.

The best way to gain efficiency on a poppet style marker is to get the most air through the valve in the shortest amount of time(higher pressure or flow). This means that making a gun kick free, and more efficient is very hard to do since they both require opposite settings.

Again I'm not saying it isn't possible....I'm just saying assuming it will magically work is the wrong thing to do. It may in fact do the opposite. Only real life testing can confirm it. Personally I think you'll end up with less shots, not more using a lighter ram, since the gain in the ram is usually not enough to balance out the loss in the valve. My proof for this is running your poppet style gun with a lower dwell setting. It usually yields better efficiency even though you have to usually run your LPR and HPR higher. You're still getting more air through the valve in a shorter time.
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Old 06-18-2007, 04:43 PM #34
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someone explain this to me (the physics part please)

if the heavy ram hits the valve with say 10 N of force wouldnt the light one have to too?

would the lightness of the ram cause the air pressure previously set for the heavy ram to be powerful enough to hit the valve with 10 N of force or would you have to adjust the reg to a different pressure


and sorry to pick on the previous post but you would have to move the light ram FASTER than the heavier ram because you still have to hit the valve with the same force to get the same results (on the ball)

so what im getting at is if you change the bolts weight and the spring .. you would have to change the spring in the valve as well right??

and is there a way to eliminate the spring from the valve by letting the LP coming from the reg be the pushing force on the backside of the valve?
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Old 06-18-2007, 05:51 PM #35
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a lighter ram with the same force will have teh ABILITY to move faster yes because its less mass to set into motion.

about speed..no. because it has less mass, it does not create teh same energy. its like a bullet if you understand ballistics. you can have a relatively underpowered cartidge with a big, heavy, slow bullet. you can also take another higher powered cartridge with a very fast small light bullet which travels thousands of ft/seconds faster. the faster lighter bullet will most likely produce more ft/pounds (given that it is powerful enough) of energy, and will probably have teh ability to punch through more material. however, the bigger slower bullet because of teh mass creates a different kind of energy. some might refer to it as knock down power. though it generates MUCH less ft/pounds of energy, the impact of the bullet does more damage.

for example, you can take a high powered rifle cartidge. its gonna go through a deer and keep on going, nothing is stopping that thing. lets say its moving 3200 feet per second with bullet weight of say 125 grains.

now you take a shotgun slug. it might go thorugh most likely depending on range, but not much further. say its moving 1200 feet per second at say a 2 ounce slug. the difference is the slug drop the deer like a bad habit on impact and the other bullet will have more driving force to bore through the deer but not do as much damage on impact.

sorry to use ballisitcs/hunting, but its the only way i can descibe it and its teh same theory. in short, no change weight does have a major effect on how teh valve opens and what pressure is needed.

valve spring? im no enigineering genious, but im pretty sure teh spring needs to be hard enough to close the valve quickly, but light enough so the valve stays shut with the least excess of force.

about eliminating the spring? depends on the valve design. for example a stock impulse valve coulde be run without a spring because the valve stem base was soooo big, that there was enough space for air to push it closed after every shot. seriouly, the thing was a flat end about the size of a dime. however, once again i dunno how other valves act, something has got to make sure that valve closes 100% of teh time. i guess some things only glenn could answer completely
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:25 AM #36
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ballistics wont work for this situation

i agree than a small mass traveling at a high velocity will "punch through" and therefore not transfer near as much energy as the slug but in this case all of the energy is transferred because its metal meeting metal .. so thats not the case

the spring on the ram im thinking could be at a ratio of what the heavy ram and heavy spring on it could be (less mass to push back)

but i think the problem is a certain amount of force is going to be require no matter how light or heavy the ram is .. its just changing the speed of it

so really im thinking the best way we could go about this guys is to lighten the amount of energy needed to push the valve in

any ideas?
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Old 06-19-2007, 10:31 AM #37
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Here is the main problem. If you lighten the ram, it needs to move faster to open the stock valve, or you can up your dwell to make it hit longer(remember you still have to achive your desired velocity with any mods). Simple enough, but with the longer dwell you'll be less efficient.

To keep the same dwell setting, you'll need to add more energy to the lighter ram to open the valve with the same force as the stock ram. To do this, you need to raise the cocking pressure of the ram to compensate for the energy loss in the lighter ram. The problem is......there is no LPR on the legend to adust the ram with. That means you now need to raise your operating pressure to make the ram travel faster. Raising your operating pressure will also mean you now need more energy to open your valve(catch 22). So the question is, will you still be able to achieve your desired velocity, without losing efficiency? Will the kick be less(remember you made the ram hit just as hard even though it's lighter)? The only way to test it is to make a lighter ram and try it.

I think the only hope of the mod working lies in the hope that the stock ram is already overpowered. If that's the case then a lighter ram may still have enough force behind it to work decently with only a minor change to dwell. Would that minor change result in anything but a minor gain in kick? Probably not. I assume Infinity already did their testing to find the ram that has the best overall performance in every category but you never know.

Compating the legend to an ego isn't exactly accurate. The EGO uses an LPR so the ram is adjustable independantly of the valve.
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