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Old 08-07-2007, 08:04 PM #295
TRiNyDeX
 
 
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Originally Posted by Mann View Post
All a marker is in the accuracy is a valve. It allows a given amount of energy to act on the paint. The barrel/player/ball does the rest.
this is clearly admitting that some guns are more accurate by nature than other guns. so what the hell is the debate? why is everyone so damn opposed to the idea?? accuracy is ALL about consistency. you can say in a fictitious world that any one ball fired from any fart will go the same distance in the same direction and land in the same place but there is no such world.

hammers bang, air rushes, bolts bolt, no two shots are the same. in light of this is it impossible to realize that some markers do not shoot consistently, do not meter air consistently, EVEN on a test bench? let's be real here. saying that accuracy is only about barrels and paint means i can just stick a nicely matched barrel and paint combo, stuff it up any one of the lil kids on this forum's ***** and tell them to turn their head and cough, yay i can mark anyone, don't need a gun, i can use cow fart, dog fart, my fart, your fart....
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Old 08-07-2007, 08:19 PM #296
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Trinydex brings a new light into the marker accuracy debate. I mean, do you really think a Brass Eagle with an ultralight with shoot just as accurate as a Karnivor, DM7, or SL74 Ego? I'll definately agree a marker with a nice barrel, HPA, and a paint to bore match will shoot accurately, but I still think a nice cocker will shoot more accurately.

Though it my not be completely relavent, look at some of the pro players that shoot cockers with revvys. Many pro, semi pro, or d1, etc. players shoot cockers by choice, not cause they have to, you'd have to think theres a good reason.
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Old 08-07-2007, 08:52 PM #297
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Though it my not be completely relavent, look at some of the pro players that shoot cockers with revvys. Many pro, semi pro, or d1, etc. players shoot cockers by choice, not cause they have to, you'd have to think theres a good reason.
Many pro players shoot what they are told/what they are given.
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Old 08-07-2007, 08:56 PM #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mann View Post
Many pro players shoot what they are told/what they are given.
Not all of them though, most Pro level players shoot sposor markers, but some of the lower, semi pro, D1, etc. shoot cockers sometimes.
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Old 08-07-2007, 08:59 PM #299
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Originally Posted by TRiNyDeX View Post
this is clearly admitting that some guns are more accurate by nature than other guns. so what the hell is the debate? why is everyone so damn opposed to the idea?? accuracy is ALL about consistency. you can say in a fictitious world that any one ball fired from any fart will go the same distance in the same direction and land in the same place but there is no such world.
Asuming that both markers allow the same amount of energy to be transfered to the ball then both markers are the same. You can change regs between markers (thus I do not believe that the reg is considered with the marker). After that the marker is just a valve.

I guess we could debate that some valves release air differently, but I am not sure that we want to try to do that. Even if a marker releases air different from another the user should be able to tune the reg to compensate for this.

edit: again we are only talking about accuracy. Not rapid fire options/preformance/a marker working at all.
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Last edited by Mann : 08-07-2007 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:00 PM #300
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Not all of them though, most Pro level players shoot sposor markers, but some of the lower, semi pro, D1, etc. shoot cockers sometimes.

I am not familiar with many pro teams/players. I dont know what they shoot. I would say that they choose cockers more for the ability to fine tune the marker more than its accuracy.

Then again they do have elves.....or is it nomes.
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:09 PM #301
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also cockers were the mainstream "had to have" gun a few years back. back when a cocker and a boomstick was basically the only gun you saw. perhaps they still use them to this day because they used it so long and they like it?
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:19 PM #302
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good point depraved. I think just about all "old school" players have owned a cocker or two. Kinda like owning a spyder. Most of us have had one at one time or another.

So my question before bed is: if the marker affects accuracy then how?

-High/low pressure
-Flow through the valve (the resistance coefficient for all of the fluid mechanic students)
-open bolt/closed bolt

These are all of the "variables" that I can think of at the moment.
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:35 PM #303
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Originally Posted by Mann View Post
Asuming that both markers allow the same amount of energy to be transfered to the ball then both markers are the same. You can change regs between markers (thus I do not believe that the reg is considered with the marker). After that the marker is just a valve.

I guess we could debate that some valves release air differently, but I am not sure that we want to try to do that. Even if a marker releases air different from another the user should be able to tune the reg to compensate for this.

edit: again we are only talking about accuracy. Not rapid fire options/preformance/a marker working at all.
i find it so odd that you're doing a scientific investigation into barrels, paint and accuracy (among other things) and you're going to say stuff like, "Asuming that both markers allow the same amount of energy to be transfered to the ball then both markers are the same." and "Even if a marker releases air different from another the user should be able to tune the reg to compensate for this."

well if a spyder were an angel then everything would shoot like an angel huh? is that the point? no, that is asanine.

edit: you are defining accuracy to not include the gun. hardly a debate. if the only thing that matters is the barrel nad paint it's very beneficial to make or worse ASSUME or CONSTRUCT everything before the barrel to be the same
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:39 PM #304
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good point depraved. I think just about all "old school" players have owned a cocker or two. Kinda like owning a spyder. Most of us have had one at one time or another.

So my question before bed is: if the marker affects accuracy then how?

-High/low pressure
-Flow through the valve (the resistance coefficient for all of the fluid mechanic students)
-open bolt/closed bolt

These are all of the "variables" that I can think of at the moment.
good question but i think you answered it or provided categories in the wrong way. accuracy has to do with how the gun affects the shooter (recoil), how the gun affects the ball (deformation if that is even an issue), how the gun delivers air (consistency of energy delivered). everything else is then up to your previous assertions of "all else being equal"
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:46 PM #305
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Originally Posted by depraved View Post
also cockers were the mainstream "had to have" gun a few years back. back when a cocker and a boomstick was basically the only gun you saw. perhaps they still use them to this day because they used it so long and they like it?
I think the reason they liked it was cause they were accurate and if marker's have the same accuracy, a cocker would essentially be useless, it's definately more complicated and pickier then most other markers. But what is there to fine tune if it shoots as accurate as another marker? Air efficiency? Operating pressure? It's obvious newer high ends have lower operating pressure and better efficeincy. There is a certain feel to a cocker, but there is also a certain way it shoots, accurately.

Ok, so back to the 'all markers have the same accuracy' ok, if that were true, and the way the marker propelled the paintball didn't matter, whether it be open bolt or closed bolt, spool valve or blow back, then c02 and HPA would make no difference, because both propel the paintball. So in the way the marker propelled the paintball didn't matter, nor could what power was used to, because those variables created by the marker or it's pressure would have no effect, just like the gasses variables would have no affect.

Consistency-
Ok, you're saying consistency is a factor of accuracy, or is it a factor of continual accuracy? Consistency is a variable in firing a paintball from a marker, a variable which changes from marker to marker, so therefore, if paintball markers put forth different variables on firing a paintball, different markers would have different accuracy's, no?

We know variables affect the way a paintball flys, in air, so, with variables in marker, couldn't this ALSO affect the paintball's accuracy?

I've seen a test done, with a cheap Brass Eagle, with it open bolt and closed bolt, but one thing gets me, first of all, there were more factors AND variables then just the open and closed bolt, such as the barrel (which obviously sucked) and since every paintball had to go through that crappy barrel, it could have comprised any effect the closed bolt had. Also, the valve and operating system were the same, what about a spool valve operation or a mechanical pneumatic closed bolt such as a cocker, those operations would also inflict different variables upon firing the paintball.
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Old 08-07-2007, 10:26 PM #306
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actually assuming that cockers arent naturally accurate there are PLENTY of reasons everyone used them back in the day.

-pretty reliable little guns
-maintenance is easy on them. you can do everything urself no prob if u know how to time it
-very customizable, everything in that gun can be replaced
-they were on the cheaper side considering the only other good guns were far more expensive (1200$ angels, 750$ shockers that weighed 9lbs and looked like bricks, few other high end electros, then the mid range electros that blew *** started comming out and cockers still held their name till they became more reliable and cheaper, then cockers were far outgunned...now be owns em so they completely downhill).
-people will buy most anything that someone says is better than another product for whatever reason. it becomes rumor then everyone believes it. look at the sly and stiffi barrels in manns test. they claim to self clean better than any barrel on the market...however there are plenty of 'underdog' barrels that actually outperformed it by far. granted ive shot plenty of cockers and they were pretty accurate, some werent. ive shot guns that outperform cockers, and some that couldnt compare. there are WAY too many factors involved in the control of guaranteeing every gun shoots at its tip top, and every part was manufactured to the EXACT degree, etc...



there are plenty of reasons ppl shot cockers. i had one myself. like mann said...i'd be willing to bet the majority of people who have been playing for more than a few years have owned a cocker at one point in time. that was my first non walmart gun.



this debate does bring in a good point, how does one really know for sure that XXX barrel will be just as accurate on YYY gun as it was on ZZZ. if mann ever has the time to retest with a second gun of different functionality (i.e. the gun hes using now is open, he tries on say a cocker or shocker) and the tests come out completely different, it would be safe to say that he could END the barrel testing and definitively post to all the n00bs who ask "wut barrel for my xxxx" because the real answer is it would take someone who has shot and recorded data of every barrel for every gun to give a legitimite answer for that. then one would also have to take into account the fact that you could have just gotten an exceptional quality barrel that outperforms another of the same barrel...perhaps the machines felt like honing better that day due to weather conditions (i.e. humidity and heat or something).


hmmm...it looks like you got ur work cut out for you mann...you up to it lol?
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Old 08-07-2007, 10:33 PM #307
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a barrel is a barrel... it'll shoot as accurate as something else that is the exact same specifications. it'll guide the ball the same, it'll put the propelling energy behind the ball for the same amount of time and distance.

barrels are what don't matter (as long as they're to spec). the problem is there's probably no way to absolutely ensure specs on barrels except to mic them yourself. so how do you buy a certain size? you can't you buy a bunch and throw out (donate them to someone else) the rest like piston rings and valve springs
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Old 08-07-2007, 10:39 PM #308
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Other than the reg there really is no diffrence between guns once you get out of the blowback area other than feel and effecincy.

If you put a good regulator and a good barrel and use good paint, any gun will shoot nice, including blowbacks.
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Old 08-07-2007, 10:42 PM #309
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you can GUARANTEE me that i could buy 2 of the same barrel that were made at different times and they are IDENTICAL...i mean ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL. one is LITERALLY a clone to the other? down to the molecular arrangement of the metal?


its impossible. there are ALWAYS mechanical flaws with anything that is made. thats why for instance 2 people can buy the exact same car and drive it the exact same way. yet 1 car craps out after 20k miles yet the other car drives till 150k with no hitches. there are always MINUTE manufacturing defects that are different with EVERYTHING made. invisible to the naked eye most of the time but perhaps enough to hinder performance.
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Old 08-07-2007, 10:53 PM #310
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you can GUARANTEE me that i could buy 2 of the same barrel that were made at different times and they are IDENTICAL...i mean ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL. one is LITERALLY a clone to the other? down to the molecular arrangement of the metal?


its impossible. there are ALWAYS mechanical flaws with anything that is made. thats why for instance 2 people can buy the exact same car and drive it the exact same way. yet 1 car craps out after 20k miles yet the other car drives till 150k with no hitches. there are always MINUTE manufacturing defects that are different with EVERYTHING made. invisible to the naked eye most of the time but perhaps enough to hinder performance.
you're talkin' about a contraption with more than 30 thousand pieces in it and comparing it to a contraption that IS one piece (maybe two, but i think the variances in two piece barrels don't fall under this exactness qualification that i made) and trying to say that there's comparability?

if barrel is the same spec as another barrel it'll perform the same barring some pothole defect. seriously... how can a barrel affect? it doesn't move, unless it has some serious defect inside it'll do the same stuff anohter one of the exact same size (to some fine tolerance) will do. the paintball to paintball tolerance will WAY override the barrel to barrel (if specs are matched) affect.

but the gun to gun... that is NOT the case AT ALL. there are huge variances, air delivery being a major one.
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:35 AM #311
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it amazes me that this discussion is even being had..... if you dont like what Mann is doing and think its flawed then do your own damn test and show us all how to do it right...... these are not bullets and these are not rifled barrels.....it doesnt matter one bit to me if the paintball hits a guy in the center of the lense or half an inch off to the right..... its still a hit....if you need to put a shot through a hole in the woods at 200' then fire six or seven and one should get through..... we have this notion that if we could really find the one barrel that will shoot exactly where its pointed everytime then that will improve our game..... that is not the case..... its nice to see that there is a difference in barrel accuracy but of all of these there really isnt a huge difference that will make you single shot work better than any other..... if you want to hit something then shot some paint at it..... not one or two (sorry snipers but those shots come few and far between and you are going to be shooting at open targets with only one ball) personally I think the test that is the most important one is the one after a ball break....


either way this arguement is dumb.... its not like Mann is a super computer able to compute all the variables at once in real time.... he is using his best judgement and isolating the ones he thinks are the most important...

oh and hes right about accuracy having nothing to do with open or closed cocker or mag blow back or spool.... none of that matters.... its all hype... Ive owned six cockers and four mags back in the day and none were any more accurate than the others with similar barrels and now my dm7 is a very accurate marker but I would imagine hat my ego is just as accurate witht eh same barrel.....



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Old 08-08-2007, 11:58 AM #312
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oh and hes right about accuracy having nothing to do with open or closed cocker or mag blow back or spool.... none of that matters.... its all hype... Ive owned six cockers and four mags back in the day and none were any more accurate than the others with similar barrels and now my dm7 is a very accurate marker but I would imagine hat my ego is just as accurate witht eh same barrel.....
I'll agree with you to some extent. but i think its in the quality of marker, all the guns you said are higher end guns. the guy that started this was shooting a spyder, with not very many ups, if any at all. to me that cant compare to any of the guns you shoot or shot. Although, like mann said, the biggest factor in accuracy is you yourself. but i think the quality of gun does has some effect in accuracy. as you upgrade the gun, the quality gets better. Like i doubt you'd see the same accuracy if you put the same barrel on a stock spyder than your dm7.
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:17 PM #313
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thats why this is a barrel test..... because the barrel affects the accuracy and very little else.... aside from the shooter
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:29 PM #314
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:19 PM #315
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it amazes me that this discussion is even being had..... if you dont like what Mann is doing and think its flawed then do your own damn test and show us all how to do it right...... these are not bullets and these are not rifled barrels.....it doesnt matter one bit to me if the paintball hits a guy in the center of the lense or half an inch off to the right..... its still a hit....if you need to put a shot through a hole in the woods at 200' then fire six or seven and one should get through..... we have this notion that if we could really find the one barrel that will shoot exactly where its pointed everytime then that will improve our game..... that is not the case..... its nice to see that there is a difference in barrel accuracy but of all of these there really isnt a huge difference that will make you single shot work better than any other..... if you want to hit something then shot some paint at it..... not one or two (sorry snipers but those shots come few and far between and you are going to be shooting at open targets with only one ball) personally I think the test that is the most important one is the one after a ball break....


either way this arguement is dumb.... its not like Mann is a super computer able to compute all the variables at once in real time.... he is using his best judgement and isolating the ones he thinks are the most important...

oh and hes right about accuracy having nothing to do with open or closed cocker or mag blow back or spool.... none of that matters.... its all hype... Ive owned six cockers and four mags back in the day and none were any more accurate than the others with similar barrels and now my dm7 is a very accurate marker but I would imagine hat my ego is just as accurate witht eh same barrel.....



/flame on
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thanks for your irrelavent comments. byebyezors.

if you bothered to read, no one is bashing his data. what people ARE doing is clarifying which factors are relavent in an accuracy evaluation.
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