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Old 08-04-2007, 09:00 AM #274
Mann
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibbsinator View Post
You want something that's real accurate, pick up a cocker, you could get a good mech 2k-2k4 for around $150 easily, arguably the MOST accurate marker in the world. I've seen and used them first hand, true beasts. If your friend wants the T9 cause he thinks it's really accurate though, I'd advise against an autococker, it's an advanced player's marker.
Sweet. Finally a marker that has the best accuracy. Guess this one doesnt need a barrel.

hope you forgot your
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Old 08-04-2007, 08:40 PM #275
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Look guys, I know all about paint to bore match and all that other stuff, ok. I've looked up and read a lot of it, alright? In some tests it's been proven that closed bolt and open bolt have no different effects. But my younger bro picked up a 2k2 mech cocker, got some new front pneus for it and rebuilt part of it. The barrel he uses with it is what it came with, a 12" aluminum anodized green unported barrel, completely unknown manufacturer. One piece barrel, unknow company, unkown bore size, unknown completely. Bottomline, this marker shoots VERY nice. Can I explain it? Not really, I have an Evil Pipe and I can match paint to bore easier, he has a one piece which probably isn't as smooth as my Pipe since, my Pipe is about a month old and is a real decent barrel. His marker shoots hands down much more accurate than mine. Can I explain why, I could throw out that hype theory of turbulence, but bottomline, his cocker shoots more accurate than I think I'll ever get my Spyder to shoot.
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Old 08-04-2007, 09:22 PM #276
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Can I explain why, I could throw out that hype theory of turbulence, but bottomline, his cocker shoots more accurate than I think I'll ever get my Spyder to shoot.
LOL. That explains it all. What gas are you using on your/his marker?
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Old 08-04-2007, 09:29 PM #277
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LOL. That explains it all. What gas are you using on your/his marker?
We're both using a PMI 72/3000 psi air tank. I took that into consideration, I said I knew a good bit about this stuff, I'm not as foolish as you might take me to be. Same paint too, even the same box/bag, we always split a case.
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Old 08-04-2007, 09:49 PM #278
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We're both using a PMI 72/3000 psi air tank. I took that into consideration, I said I knew a good bit about this stuff, I'm not as foolish as you might take me to be. Same paint too, even the same box/bag, we always split a case.
I am not calling you a fool. I know that it has been proven many times over that the marker does not affect accuracy. It could be that he is better at shooting, or that his bore/ball match is better than yours.

Dont count out stock barrels. They are not as bad as everyone takes them for. In some cases they are even better (given the correct sized ball) then the aftermarket ones.
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Old 08-04-2007, 10:06 PM #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mann View Post
I am not calling you a fool. I know that it has been proven many times over that the marker does not affect accuracy. It could be that he is better at shooting, or that his bore/ball match is better than yours.

Dont count out stock barrels. They are not as bad as everyone takes them for. In some cases they are even better (given the correct sized ball) then the aftermarket ones.
Not calling me a fool, i can accept that, but you did write "LOL. That explains it all." as if you knew something I didn't, I would think you would understand.

As far as him being better at shooting, that's not a factor, we were test firing both of them, handing them back and forth, it just straigh out shot better than mine. This barrel clearly isn't stock, it's a 12" green unported barrel, we know nothing more. I would like to know what barrel it is, but my beleifs would be it is an older barrel, by probably a no name company, nothing big, but someon got ahold of it and we ended up with it. The paint to bore match isn't much of a factor either, I ahve a .686 Pipe and about 5 stock barrels and low grade aftermarket barrels, I have a WIDE selection of bores, he has one barrel.

As I said, I know what multiple tests have shown, but I've seen this thing shoot, and I've fired it myself, I've used a Spyder, which if anything should be the best to dsiprove this, with a good barrel and HPA. As much as I hate to say it his Cocker outdid my Spyder.

Here is my theory, the turbuence theory, but just hear it out. Ok, we know that flatlines and Apex barrels put a spin on a paintball and the paintbal curves in flight, so if a paintball going down a barrel is spinning, it will have an effect very similar to that of a flatline, in a much smaller way, physics. Now, is it common theory that open bolts put have "turbulence" and put spin on the ball. With my dealings with a Cocer, I beleive an open bolt in many cases can put a small spin on the ball. Now if a closed bolt marker like a Cocker, can eliminate that spin and the paintball has a much more stabile flgiht, the flgiht pattern will be altered less.

I can't test it, I can just speak my word, my idea is my Spyder makes the ball spin a little bit more than my bro's Cocker, resulting in less accuracy. I have yet to meet a person that has test fired my marker and my bro's cocker and thinks otherwise. I don't wanna get a huge arguement going, but after personal experience, it just seems a Cocker is more accurate than many markers.
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Old 08-04-2007, 10:42 PM #280
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This barrel clearly isn't stock, it's a 12" green unported barrel, we know nothing more. I would like to know what barrel it is, but my beleifs would be it is an older barrel, by probably a no name company, nothing big, but someon got ahold of it and we ended up with it.
That is a stock autococker barrel. If you measure it again you will probally see that it is 11" (IIRC) I had one exactly like it.



The top one in this pic is a stock autococker barrel, and has out preformed a pipe kit. I will prove it later. Maybe even tonight if photobucket will finish uploading the data.

If you think about how your marker works your bolt is "closed" when the ball has forces exerted on it. Otherwise all of the air would escape out your feedneck.

Another factor that you have to take into consideration is that your spyder is not regulated anywhere nearly as good as an autococker. Each time you shoot you are getting a different pressure exerted on you paint.
That is what made me laugh. most blowback markers are very unconsistant with velocity, and it causes problems with the accuracy.

All a marker is in the accuracy is a valve. It allows a given amount of energy to act on the paint. The barrel/player/ball does the rest.
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Old 08-04-2007, 11:53 PM #281
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Look, I know that Mr. Mann said he does NOT believe that the marker has anything to do with accuracy, but I'll tell you that (like the STD slogan) inconsistency is a disease (and they have the cure)... and causes hot/soft shots. Do you think that doesn't affect accuracy? BIG TYME!!! Especially with good balls and a proper ball/bore match.

It was touched on earlier that the 'cocker was regulated better and that's prolly the issue here. A more consistent marker is more accurate shot after shot, gauranteed. Shoot them both with new paint and make sure the 'cocker is more accurate in your opinion with the new paint. Then immediately shoot them over a chrono and check the findings. I'd be willing to bet the 'cocker is more consistent, therefore more accurate.

AKA makes a regulator called the 2 liter. It's claimed to be the best reg on the market and there's two reasons for that. Recharge rate and consistency. It'll properly feed a marker faster than anything out there and be consistent doing it. The STD JDS LPR was designed by the same person I believe (Aaron K. Alexander [hence AKA]) and truly, the more consistent the marker, the more accurate the marker. Then comes barrel and quality paint with equal portion apiece.

I was bummed out when I first read that Mr. Mann used a Mag. The only Mags I've encountered were more inconsistent than a few other markers of choice (Excalibur FTW! but you never know. The Mag in question might be 290fps 1500 times in a row...) but they shot enough rounds with all the different paints and barrels to create a mean average. Good enough for me. That was something in the testing that I didn't notice that caught my attention: the +/- consistency readings. It truly matters Mr. Mann.

Consistency FTW.
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Old 08-04-2007, 11:53 PM #282
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Dang! Sorry for the book!
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Old 08-05-2007, 01:08 PM #283
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OK, I'm not goin to quote either one of your posts, they're too long and I'll just use paragraphs.

Mann, again, I know what I'm talking about, this barrel IS NOT STOCK, it has NO milling or porting what so ever, it looks nothing like any of those barrels. It is LITERALLY a green anodized tube, nothing to differentiate it from other barrels, it as simple as it gets. As said earlier, go figure, unless it's a stock barrel from a SUPER old cocker, I don't think it's stock.

Consistenecy, yes I realize consistency is important in accuracy, I'm not talking vertical accuracy, I mean accuracy in total. Truth be, his cocker isn't much more consistent then mine, it's got the old stock reg on it, and it probablt has been timed and tuned to it's fullest. My Spyder Classic is relatively decent with consistency, it has no reg, but it's nearly as consistent as his cocker.

Turbulence, I realize how the markers work and fire, I know that in a few ways the turbulence theory can be disproved, and in a few ways it can be proven. I've jsut seen much better accuracy from his cocker, it's not the barrel, it's not the paint (we always split a case), and it's not the shooter. You may not beleive me, you may try to throw out another reason why I'm wrong, fine. But I've seen it shoot much more accurate than my Spyder. And if the regulator was the problem, then a marker with bad regulation WOULD b more inaccurate then a regulated marker, slightly proven that not all marker's have the same accuracy.

EDIT- This is the Cocker when he bought it, and a junky JT (I despise that marker.) You can see the barrel on the cocker, it's obviously compltely unmilled or proted, literally a green anodized tube.

By Gibbsinator at 2007-08-05
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Old 08-05-2007, 01:58 PM #284
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a spyder is not a good gun, so if you're comparing accuracy between a spyder and a cocker, you might as well just throw the paintballs and compare that to a cocker. spyders are entry level guns, and cockers can range from entry to tourny level, but its an all around better gun than a spyder, at least accuracy wise.

when i first started playing about 10 years ago, i started with a spyder, then upgraded to a cocker, it was a micrococker, awesome gun. anyways... just saying, a cocker is more accurate than a spyder anyday, well almost anyday...
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Old 08-05-2007, 02:45 PM #285
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Originally Posted by opiejophes View Post
a spyder is not a good gun, so if you're comparing accuracy between a spyder and a cocker, you might as well just throw the paintballs and compare that to a cocker. spyders are entry level guns, and cockers can range from entry to tourny level, but its an all around better gun than a spyder, at least accuracy wise.

when i first started playing about 10 years ago, i started with a spyder, then upgraded to a cocker, it was a micrococker, awesome gun. anyways... just saying, a cocker is more accurate than a spyder anyday, well almost anyday...
Well I'm not going to diss my marker, but I agree to an extent, Mann believes no marker is more accurate than another. I disagree, i think an autococker is one of the most accurate markers in the world. A Spyder in the right hands with the right parts and tuning can become a very nice marker, but this costs money which I don't have. Nor do i have money for another marker, so for know I'll stick with what I have. I've considered buying my own mech cocker, or finding a cheap e-cocker in the future, but that is irrelevant.

EDIT-I went and look for some videos of Spyders, and found this one ofa VS2, http://www.*************.org/search/...d0001af0aa.htm I'm not saying it's better than marker X or anybody's, but Spyders aren't as bad as people make them out to be. Plus, if no marker was more accurate than another, Spyders would actually be much better than beleived, it has an insanely high cycle rate.
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Old 08-05-2007, 05:08 PM #286
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Hey Gibbsinator, your sig is great! Maybe you should add "murdered" in there as well.
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Old 08-05-2007, 09:17 PM #287
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Hey Gibbsinator, your sig is great! Maybe you should add "murdered" in there as well.
I can't take credit, but I was in NC on vacation, and we passed by a church, they had two signs out there that read that. It struck me as funny and ironic, and hard hitting, too. So many people don't think there is a problem with abortion, but they get mad and upset when someone gets sick or dies, it's sad how bad ignorance is in this country.
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Old 08-06-2007, 12:13 PM #288
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i dont feel like reading this whole thread so i wana know wat barrel or kit did man find to be the most accurate? also did he match paint to bore or just shot teh same paint through all the barrels?
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Old 08-06-2007, 12:20 PM #289
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http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2218018
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:09 PM #290
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i dont feel like reading this whole thread so i wana know wat barrel or kit did man find to be the most accurate? also did he match paint to bore or just shot teh same paint through all the barrels?
You don't have to read the whole thread, just part of the first two pages, it's not brain science, if Mann made it any easier he'd be making the descicion for you, that's not what he's out to do. Mann is out to test each barrel individually and visually show it's results, along with other results. The choice is made for yourself, obviously some barrels are plain out not worth it based upon the graphs, break down what looks good and decide from there.
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Old 08-06-2007, 09:41 PM #291
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http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...Protoxball.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...a/Protorec.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8.../Protomarb.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...a/PPSxball.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...ata/PPSrec.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...ta/PPSmarb.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8.../Pipe92rec.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...Pipe92marb.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...ipe83xball.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8.../Phat92rec.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...Phat89marb.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...hat86xball.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...ner89xball.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...aner89marb.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...Kaner87rec.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...ta/JJ88rec.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...a/JJ88marb.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8.../JJ82xball.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...eXcelxball.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...DyeXcelrec.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...yeXcelmarb.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...eBoomxball.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...DyeBoomrec.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...yeBoommarb.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8.../99ACxball.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...ta/99ACrec.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...a/99ACmarb.jpg


here are links to most of the missing data. Ill sort it out later. Its been a long week, and its only monday.
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:34 PM #292
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Very nice Mann, good to see some more of the results, good luck with all the rest of the work. Now Mann, in our discussion earlier, i had the impression that you were calling the Pipe a lower grrade barrel system than others. I'm not trying to challenge you or anything, but looking at the Pipe 92 bore, rec ball graph, the grouping seemed tighter than a lot of other things I've seen. Now is it just me or does the rec-sport just seem to be the beter performing paint?
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:46 PM #293
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Very nice Mann, good to see some more of the results, good luck with all the rest of the work. Now Mann, in our discussion earlier, i had the impression that you were calling the Pipe a lower grrade barrel system than others. I'm not trying to challenge you or anything, but looking at the Pipe 92 bore, rec ball graph, the grouping seemed tighter than a lot of other things I've seen. Now is it just me or does the rec-sport just seem to be the beter performing paint?
The rec sport paint we were using I was very impressed with. IMO it was equal with the xball gold, and that was ~ 30 bucks more a box

As for the pipe: It is not a horrible barrel, but defiently not my type. This barrel was actually the first barrel that I ever broke. While playing I hit a tree, and cracked the front right off. It completely stripped the front threads out of the front of the barrel. Now you have to understand I treat my paintball gun better than my body. Usually I will take the dive with the marker in the air/away from harm. When I broke it I was astonished how easily it just came off.

As for accuracy you will find that most all barrels preform similar given "perfect conditions", and the right paint. Remember out of the over 600 targets that we shot I have only posted ~75 of them.

Ill try to finish sorting things out in a min.
I am also going to continue the whole marker/accuracy debate a little later.
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Old 08-07-2007, 06:10 PM #294
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