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Old 05-26-2007, 11:28 PM #1
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God's power over/plot for a human and the possibility of Hell

I am a little confused about this whole mess. I am by no means an expert in Christian theology, and that may very well be why this whole question came to in my mind, but I see some discrepancies in the power God has over the individual person and the power the person has over themselves.

If we assume that God is in fact all powerful and omnipotent, I would assume that would imply that he knows and allows every event to happen before it happens. This raises some issues for me. That would imply that God allows beings to sin against him and in sinning against God would that not damn that person to Hell, if the sin was great enough I suppose. Now it can be argued that not all sins will get you sent to Hell, but we we most assume that some are great enough or logically deny the existence of Hell. Why now, would an all loving God create a creature that he loves on a level that we could never dream, fulling knowing that it would be sent to Hell?
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Old 05-26-2007, 11:30 PM #2
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I am a little confused about this whole mess. I am by no means an expert in Christian theology, and that may very well be why this whole question came to in my mind, but I see some discrepancies in the power God has over the individual person and the power the person has over themselves.

If we assume that God is in fact all powerful and omnipotent, I would assume that would imply that he knows and allows every event to happen before it happens. This raises some issues for me. That would imply that God allows beings to sin against him and in sinning against God would that not damn that person to Hell, if the sin was great enough I suppose. Now it can be argued that not all sins will get you sent to Hell, but we we most assume that some are great enough or logically deny the existence of Hell. Why now, would an all loving God create a creature that he loves on a level that we could never dream, fulling knowing that it would be sent to Hell?
Already have a "free will" thread....please search.
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Old 05-26-2007, 11:32 PM #3
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Already have a "free will" thread....please search.
Oh shucks, sorry guys
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Old 05-26-2007, 11:42 PM #4
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Logic and Christianity are a dangerous mix.
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Old 05-26-2007, 11:55 PM #5
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Logic and Christianity are a dangerous mix.
While I agree to an extent. If you were to read people like Thomas Aquinas or other predominant Christian theologians, you find better logic than anyone here who spurts on about how Christianity is illogical.
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:06 AM #6
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For the reason that God loves us so much to give us the choice of free will. Should he choose to not let us sin, and only be good, then we will pretty much just be drones going to Church every sunday, blah blah blah. Would make life pretty boring.

And the Sin=Hell thing is blwon out of context, from what I understand should one person committ enough "Mortal Sins", then he/she has severely broken their bond with God. However, a few minutes with Priest and all of a sudden it does not matter how many people you killed for cash you are once again a Son/Daughter of God. The "Venial Sins" weaken your bond only a little.

But I still find the entire Catholic Religion illogical as a whole. I hate being Roman Catholic.
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:10 AM #7
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I hate being Roman Catholic.
Then don't.
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:12 AM #8
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While I agree to an extent. If you were to read people like Thomas Aquinas or other predominant Christian theologians, you find better logic than anyone here who spurts on about how Christianity is illogical.
I recommend then that you read some quotes from people like Friedrich Nietzsche.
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:17 AM #9
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I recommend then that you read some quotes from people like Friedrich Nietzsche.
I've read plenty of Nietzsche.

Thing is though, just reading quotes doesn't show logic, it's just rhetoric; logic is a complete argument, it involves a train of thought that takes you step by step until you reach the conclusion of the argument.

Here's the thing though, faith is not illogical.
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:27 AM #10
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I've read plenty of Nietzsche.

Thing is though, just reading quotes doesn't show logic, it's just rhetoric; logic is a complete argument, it involves a train of thought that takes you step by step until you reach the conclusion of the argument.

Here's the thing though, faith is not illogical.
http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Richard_Dawkins/


Read his quotes, don't question him either he has science behind him and is always right, just take whatever he says as fact!
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:28 AM #11
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Religion doesn't really have logic on its side. A God who loves us yet will block us from eternal happiness if we don't telepathically tell Him that we believe in Him isn't very logical.
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:29 AM #12
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Religion doesn't really have logic on its side. A God who loves us yet will block us from eternal happiness if we don't telepathically tell Him that we believe in Him isn't very logical.
Yea, you pretty much just destroyed every single religion with pure logic, way to go, you have saved mankind.
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Old 05-27-2007, 01:25 AM #13
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Religion doesn't really have logic on its side. A God who loves us yet will block us from eternal happiness if we don't telepathically tell Him that we believe in Him isn't very logical.
Logic proves nothing. Nothing is known outside of experience, but even experience is subject to change, because cause and effect has not been proven.

Any concept of knowledge of the unknown has no roots in experience, therefore it can only be known with faith. So while these religious beliefs may not be founded in experience, they can still be logically justified.

Ala what Thomas Aquinas did in his Summa Theologica.
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Old 05-27-2007, 08:15 AM #14
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Just a quick question, and not meaning to derail OP, why is it that a theological subject most often turns into a philosophical one? Is it because concepts and faiths parallel the line of thinking (man's) or because both deal with subjects that require man to think?
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Old 05-27-2007, 09:11 AM #15
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Yea, you pretty much just destroyed every single religion with pure logic, way to go, you have saved mankind.
I'm sorry but at least my logic makes more sense than that of the Bible.
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:16 AM #16
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Since when is the christian god a loving god? I remember him being an egotistical, vengeful diety.
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:16 AM #17
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I'm sorry but at least my logic makes more sense than that of the Bible.
Have you ever read the Bible?
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:21 AM #18
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Since when is the christian god a loving god? I remember him being an egotistical, vengeful diety.
The God of the Bible (and the Universe, mind you) is a loving and just God.

Here's how I see the whole justifying hell deal:

If you were God and you created people for the purpose of love and they turned away from you, spit at you, used your name as a curse word, etc, etc. How then can you not justify punishing them for rejecting you as their creator?

It's a pretty easy concept. People that claim they're "atheists" want to either say God is love or God is just, He can't be both; but as one of God's own, I'm here to tell you that God is both love and just.

To understand the concept and purpose of Christ is amazing thing, I encourage you all to educate yourselves about it before you attack it.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:02 AM #19
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Have you ever read the Bible?
Yes, I have. The Old Testament God says to kill all sorts of people, but then changes his mind, even though Jesus says to follow the OT Law. That's just one of the hundreds of illogical things in the Bible.


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If you were God and you created people for the purpose of love and they turned away from you, spit at you, used your name as a curse word, etc, etc. How then can you not justify punishing them for rejecting you as their creator?
See, I can understand punishment. But eternal damnation is a little harsh, don't you think?
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:57 AM #20
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Yes, I have. The Old Testament God says to kill all sorts of people, but then changes his mind, even though Jesus says to follow the OT Law. That's just one of the hundreds of illogical things in the Bible.
No, he says to kill those that oppose Him and that seek to destroy His children (the Israelites); also, it wasn't a law, but a commandment.

If you really understand the OT, you must have a doctorate of some sorts for the OT is as complex as complex can get.


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See, I can understand punishment. But eternal damnation is a little harsh, don't you think?
To me? No, because if I had children that rejected me, even after I died for them, I think I would eternally punish them too.

God may have different motives, the Bible isn't a complete book (not that there's anything necessary missing); nor do Christians know everything.
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:32 PM #21
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The God of the Bible (and the Universe, mind you) is a loving and just God.

Here's how I see the whole justifying hell deal:

If you were God and you created people for the purpose of love and they turned away from you, spit at you, used your name as a curse word, etc, etc. How then can you not justify punishing them for rejecting you as their creator?
[color=red]According to who? You mean the bible? He created you to worship him. Not for love. As soon as you are not on your knees grovling in fear you are killed or bannished to hell. Yup, seems like love to me [/quote]

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It's a pretty easy concept. People that claim they're "atheists" want to either say God is love or God is just, He can't be both; but as one of God's own, I'm here to tell you that God is both love and just.
Got proof of this? Love is hsowing said love in works. Where is the proof of this?

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To understand the concept and purpose of Christ is amazing thing, I encourage you all to educate yourselves about it before you attack it.
christ is nothing more than a guy who was killed on the cross for making blasphemious claims and causing a public disturbance. Keep in mind there were other people of the day who performed "miracles" and claimed to be the prodigal son. All of which is claim that has no backing.

I would bet I am more educated in theology than you. Have you studied the stories behind the bible and their origins? Most of which are from religions and cultures which christians lambast today.
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