Dealing with cheating - PbNation
Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

 
Archived Thread - Cannot Edit  
Old 04-30-2007, 09:07 AM #1
Cyclops-YankeeDiv
Heavy Weapons Support
 
Cyclops-YankeeDiv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodstock Valley, CT
Dealing with cheating

I've been to a few games and the amount of wiping and other field vilations are pretty widely known, and in some cases turned a blind eye too. My personal viewpoint is that we should also police our own, as a way to alivate some of the stress on fields that have 2 few reffs.

What do you guys think about scenario producers doing a blanket penalty. Examples:
You get crono'd on the field and you are shooting 320+ consistanly (4-5 shots) you and 5 teamates in the area are called out. It happens again the same result, however the reff records the name and deducts 500 points from that side.

You are caught wiping...something happens.

This allows us to put pressure on our "teamates" to play fairly and by the rules. Any thoughts?
__________________
Brandon "Cyclops" Boucher
YANKEE DIVISION PAINTBALL TEAM
Proudly Sponsored by
Tippmann-VForce-TechT-Special Ops-Crossfire Air-Hammerhead
Advanced Paintball Electronics-Identity Crisis Paintball-Jasse Paintball
Cyclops-YankeeDiv is offline  
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 04-30-2007, 09:18 AM #2
Silence
BLUAWAGABA
 
Silence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Budd Lake, NJ
 has been a member for 10 years
I think the problem is that paintball doesn't have soft infractions like, say, football. A holding penalty is fifteen yards or whatever, and might even be a tactical move in the sense that maybe it's better to hold someone than to let him destroy the quarterback. But in paintball, wiping should NEVER be considered "tactical". It's cheating, and should get you kicked off the field, period.

Shooting hot is dangerous, but can easily be an accident (especially if you're running CO2), so penalizing the entire team because some kid chronoed his Spyder in at 260 but now it's at 290 isn't really fair, and probably won't have the desired result. Punching his ID and telling him, "Ok, go chrono your gun and if you're hot again later you're gone" is a better solution, because it's not really something that should be "tactical". There might be a situation where cranking it up to 300 is worth getting five of my people out, and that should never be true.
__________________
Team FOREFRONT

Last edited by Silence : 04-30-2007 at 09:20 AM.
Silence is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 09:22 AM #3
thundertb (Banned)
The name is TB...just TB
 
thundertb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Omaha, TX
I think it is pretty shabby myself. 'Tactical Ref Nukes' as they have come to be called is nothing short of someone not wanting to do their job but have others do it for them.

You get caught..... that is the crux now isn't it? If a ref catches YOU cheating or shooting hot, why should the other 5 people suffer? Unless they saw you cheating and said nothing, then they would be cheating and the ref would have every right to judge punch them all and send them off field. However to make me responsible for others foul play is pretty ludicrous. I try to help players, when I hear dead men talking I tell them to stop even if they are on my team. I have told players they were hit on my team and if they played on I went and got a ref and pointed it out or took it to the game promoter.

Refs need to be a little more aggressive in their decision making and being clear and concise with their statements and understanding of the rules. And if they see someone cheating or they find someone shooting hot, they should do what needs to be done. Calling me out so that I will 'adjust' that person is plain wrong. Even more so when 'adjusting' is illegal and unwanted at most fields and people who cheat or intentionally shoot hot, aren't going to care what you say to them anyways.
thundertb is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 09:24 AM #4
thundertb (Banned)
The name is TB...just TB
 
thundertb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Omaha, TX
And Silence, not to open a whole can of worms, but this isn't football. This would be at least the 5th time I have seen you compare scenario paintball to some sport.

You know if this was hockey I could body check the fool... so can we do that?

I hope your strategizing is better then your analogies otherwise I am going to have to listen to the GWM crow about whipping you for a whole year again.
thundertb is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 09:36 AM #5
arh
panda whisperer
 
arh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: jersey
arh is a Supporting Member
we should already put pressure on our teammates to follow the rules, regardless of point penalties, but i realize we're not dealing with a perfect world

i like ref punches:
- you get spot chrono'd on the field and you're shooting hot? ref punch on your id tag/wristband/etc and get sent back to the range to re-chrono.
- you get caught wiping or playing on by a ref? ref punch and sent to reinsertion
- out of bounds? ref punch, reinsert.
- dead players talking to live players? - ref punches all around, go to insertion
- take your goggles off? ref punch, go to insertion
- any other violations of the rules as designated by the field? ref punch, go to insertion

Violate the rules 3 times? you're ejected.

SPPL deducts points for rules violations - maybe this could be combined. Like when a ref punches a card, they can call in to central command and say "Red team player shooting hot" and have points deducted. Tally it up and have an overall sportsmanship/safety penalty assessed.

I'd steer clear of pulling other players because someone nearby is violating the rules. When those folks see the offending player get called out, that should be a reminder to stick to the rules. While I know the refs can't be everywhere all the time, the threat of losing points if you get caught could be a nice psychological trick.
__________________
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Assistant Director of Directing -- G-Force Productions
Wülfpak | You either run with the Pak or be hunted by it!
arh is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 10:05 AM #6
Silence
BLUAWAGABA
 
Silence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Budd Lake, NJ
 has been a member for 10 years
TB, do you have a substantive objection to my post? Why are you telling me that paintball isn't football just after I used football to point out how paintball is different from sports with penalties?

__________________
Team FOREFRONT
Silence is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 10:24 AM #7
Colonel Kopp
A Team Called Panda
 
Colonel Kopp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 908
Colonel Kopp owns a Planet Eclipse Etek
Colonel Kopp has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
I think arh is 100% correct on this one.

And my opinion on the 5 for 1 type penalties. This isn't tournament paintball. You might not have a clue who the guy is playing next to you. Why should he suffer for your stupid mistake. I know I would be a little up set if a ref just came up to me and was like, "You have to go reinsert because Jimbo over there cheated". No _ for 1 penalties. Punching and point deduction FTW!
__________________
Colonel Kopp is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 10:25 AM #8
thundertb (Banned)
The name is TB...just TB
 
thundertb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Omaha, TX
a substantive opinion? Mighty big words there...... I think that the first post I made was my opinion on the subject of this post.

The second was an opinion of you comparing several different topics of scenario paintball to sports and that they needed to be added because that (in your opinion) is what made those sports better. And in the end, I added that I hope that your commanding skills are better then having a need to add 'something' to the game to make it more 'fair' otherwise you were going to lose to the GWM and I would have to listen to them all over again.

Now considering your request for me to produce a more substantive objection to your post, how's this; That is the most stupidest idea I have ever heard, a holding penalty in paintball. Is that substantial enough for you? Or is there something else you need? Shouldn't you be planning a game? A website isn't going to help you.

And a point deduction to a side is about a crazy as pulling other people for someone's mistake. Unless the commander is telling people to cheat. Give me a break, play stand up and if not then take your freaking lumps when you get caught. Quit trying to make me or someone else responsible for you.
thundertb is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 10:32 AM #9
Silence
BLUAWAGABA
 
Silence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Budd Lake, NJ
 has been a member for 10 years
Now I'm going to have to ask you to actually read my post. I'll quote it here with some parts bolded to make things a little clearer:

Quote:
I think the problem is that paintball doesn't have soft infractions like, say, football. A holding penalty is fifteen yards or whatever, and might even be a tactical move in the sense that maybe it's better to hold someone than to let him destroy the quarterback. But in paintball, wiping should NEVER be considered "tactical". It's cheating, and should get you kicked off the field, period.
Nowhere do I suggest there should be holding penalties in paintball. Nowhere do I suggest there should even be "penalties" in that sense - cheating should get you kicked off the field, period. In paintball, the only two categories of actions are legal and illegal, and penalties, as such, have no place.

Now why the **** are you jumping on me?
__________________
Team FOREFRONT

Last edited by Silence : 04-30-2007 at 10:36 AM.
Silence is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 10:39 AM #10
Cyclops-YankeeDiv
Heavy Weapons Support
 
Cyclops-YankeeDiv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodstock Valley, CT
Well one of the reasons I bring this up is because everyone knows, studies support it, peer pressure works. There is a huge difference between a scenario team and a walk on player. The scenario players police each other and are the first ones to pipe up with "deadmen don't talk" or some other rules enforcement.

I was at a game recently and the reffs caught at least 3 players with allen wrenchs on them and all the guns in the area were shooting 330+. They ejected the whole area, but the kids were laughing about it afterwards, they only had 1 hour of the game left to play.

Last year there were a couple of people that were caught putting paintballs in ice and freezing them. You don't think that as a responsible member of the paintball community that you shouldn't add pressure to brng people in line with the rules? If people think there are more eyes on them then just the 2 reffs in the area they will be more inclined follow the rules.
__________________
Brandon "Cyclops" Boucher
YANKEE DIVISION PAINTBALL TEAM
Proudly Sponsored by
Tippmann-VForce-TechT-Special Ops-Crossfire Air-Hammerhead
Advanced Paintball Electronics-Identity Crisis Paintball-Jasse Paintball
Cyclops-YankeeDiv is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 10:46 AM #11
Silence
BLUAWAGABA
 
Silence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Budd Lake, NJ
 has been a member for 10 years
Cyclops: Yeah, I think people playing should be more willing to police each other without waiting for the refs. But putting in measures like penalties (hotshooting means the whole area heads to the deadzone, etc) creates something that can be exploited rather than something that should just be completely off limits. If you're caught shooting hot, you should get a punch on your ID or wristband, and if you get caught again, you're out of the game. If a ref sees you wipe, you should get get tossed period.

Enforcing that at big games is difficult, and that's where people should step up and take some of it on themselves. The problem is making everyone start doing that, and it's not easy. Most people are more than willing to let things slide to avoid offending friends or fellow players.
__________________
Team FOREFRONT
Silence is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 10:47 AM #12
chibbs
 
 
chibbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
i was at the west point game a few weeks ago, i was on the front lines and a guy with a mask that went over his whole head took a hit, asked me to check him to see if it broke, i looked up said your out, he responded by saying wipe me, i loooked at him, i took offence that he asked me that, i told him to go back to the dead zone and luckly he did

people cheat, it sucks, it drives me nuts, the only thing we can do as players is not do it ourselves, watch for it and try police ourselves and fellow players, sometimes people get hit in the pods and dont know it, just tell them, dude your hit, there are very few places i have been to when someone wont go out when you tell them they are hit, when you see someone cranking volocity report it, when you see someone wiping or shooting non field paint in a FPO game report it

if i got pulled out of a game because some kid who i never met or never talked to i would be pissed, i know how to control myself, but there are some people out there with hot tempers and that may not go well. its 1 thing doing a 2 for 1 in a speedball tourny where your with a team who knows you, but somthing like that just wouldnt work in scenario
__________________
Captain of Team Voodoo
"First comes respect, then comes fear"

Play hard or not at all!
chibbs is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 11:01 AM #13
funfla22
 
 
funfla22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: punta gorda florida
the best thsing is peer pressure , if you see someone cheating, speak up. it can be friendly , look buddy saw you wipe that hit off , sure didnt look like splatter to be.--- if the players police each other the refs will have it easier and make the cheaters stand out more , but dont do it accusingly do it friendly -- after chroning a whole lot of guns in my life a lot times i can tell from thse sounds that a gun might be a bit hot , yes i can be worng , but if you think somene near you and on your team is hot speak up-- i know i would rather have another player tell me -- hey buddy you might check your gun next time you are near the chrono , rather than get caught hot ----------


on the subject of hot guns , i dont understand the need to play over 280 todays hi tech stuff shoots just fine in that speed range in fact at 300 or above it starts to get a bit squrrily when you are shooting ----- what i think the industry should do is get rid of co2 --- its a lot of the hot gun problems , bad for the enviroment , n2 or dive air is so much more stable
__________________
Dave from The Coalition

sorry guys -radiogal is mine !!!


We support !!!!
http://www.paintballpartyz.com/
funfla22 is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 11:06 AM #14
kjjm4
Liberty or Death
 
kjjm4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Wind Ridge, PA
kjjm4 is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
kjjm4 has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
kjjm4 has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Pulling additional players or deducting points from the side of the cheater is a bad idea, IMO, because you usually don't even know half the people on your side, so you shouldn't be responsible for them. First offense gets your card punched, second offense gets you tossed. If you see a player cheating, call them on it, and let the refs know.
__________________
“A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."
-Thomas Jefferson
kjjm4 is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 11:49 AM #15
Capt. Malone
WANT SOME? COME GET SOME!
 
Capt. Malone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: At Strategy Plus
Capt. Malone is a Supporting Member
Teams need to hold their players responsible. If a player cheats then the Team has to take action.
As for Walk Ons, they need to be watched by the reffs and action taken by the field owners.

ALSO, home teams, teams that are sponsored by the fields that these games are taking place, should be making some field Reff decisions and assisting the home field to make the game better.

I know that you are going to come back and say that the teams would be biased and use that power to cheat? NO, good teams that understand the games as a whole is more important that the win will do their job and ensure that the game is safe and fun for all.
AT Hubes pocket this winter Hornets Nest asked a few players from all the teams to be player reffs and watch for infringements and safety issues. It was a Great Game and we had little issues.
__________________
CAPTAIN MALONE
Captain/Founder-TEAM EXTREME MEASURES
OUR HOME-Strategy Plus Paintball
Capt. Malone is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 12:10 PM #16
spudcrazy
 
 
spudcrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Northern VA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silence View Post
Now why the **** are you jumping on me?
Okay, I've had enough of reading these posts. Silence, if you pull a "TB", like he did to you
Quote:
Originally Posted by thundertb View Post
This would be at least the 5th time I have seen you compare scenario paintball to some sport.
, you'll see that he has a combative nature. Having said that, TB is very smart when it comes to all things "scenario paintball", but he does like to belittle people with differeing opinions and go into their profiles to help him research to belittle. I've seen where he has accused a 16 year old of being naive, just because he was 16, not knowing that some people might fake their age due to security reasons... (Oh, I'll get flamed for that!!!). However, I understood your post to be exactly what you said, a "non-comparison" and I think you did it eloquently, especially where you came back with your own quotes. (Although, I too disagree with it a bit.)

TB, I'm sure you're a nice guy, but you got pipe down a bit and when someone offer a differing opinion, or even one that you think is totally off the wall, handle it with a little more class. i.e. "I respectfully disagree with your opinion on the matter, but...."

That concludes my rant on that topic.

To the topic at hand, I like the punch card scheme. The big scenarios I play use this and it works real well. That's not to say you can stop cheating, but it helps and it only punishes the cheater and not the non-suspecting player.
__________________
SPUDCRAZY
Old Man Militia Webpage
EStar Jungle Etek
spudcrazy is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 12:18 PM #17
Meph
 
 
Meph's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Meph is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by thundertb View Post
You know if this was hockey I could body check the fool... so can we do that?
Now THAT is my kinda game!
__________________
My Vids:
FPS: First Person Shooter Action. Including Castle Conquest 23 & 24 footage!

My Sponsors:
Fat babies on Maury
Guinness
And my newest Sponsor.... Charmin!
Meph is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 12:30 PM #18
jarnutowski
 
 
jarnutowski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silence View Post
wiping should NEVER be considered "tactical". It's cheating, and should get you kicked off the field, period.
Even not putting the hand up or walking off the field and playing on should be considered here as well. Especially when it's as blatant as the guy I lit up on wall 2 this weekend during the Castle Game at EMR.

I'm in the wall and shooting at an attacker who is showing me his whole right side of his body: head to toe. I emptied an entire hopper on him and I watched him flinch with the ones that broke and the ones that bounced. His entire side was blue but he didn't move and kept shooting so I filled my hopper again and once more and emptied all three and he still refused to put his hand up and continued to play on. A teammate actually told me to stop shooting him and forget about it.
__________________
Team B.I.T.'M.
MEMBER - Joint Fury
Sponsored by WDP

.....know your roots
jarnutowski is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 12:45 PM #19
starkc
ver d.3.1.0
 
starkc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Under a Rock
WOW


It's gonna happen guys. No matter what you do, people will cheat. Crazy ideas about kicking players who have committed NO OFFENSE off the field and punishing a team for the misbehaviour of a single player are rediculous.

Your best bet is if YOU see something you tell a judge/reff. If the judge/reff doesn't do anything, tough stuff. Just keep control of yourself, because it's YOU and only YOU (except for children) that you're responsible (hopefully) and accountable for.
__________________
You may be thinking, "well that wasn't a very nice post"
Well, I'm not a very nice person.

Mister, We Deal in Lead
Team Ragnarok
The thing that makes a man into a professional is the software.
"Here is my personal advice; be a man. Don't come down here expecting **** for free, don't feel it is your right to be treated well, and exercise some freaking integrity."
TSgt B. Murray
starkc is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 12:52 PM #20
Smakman
Owner: Smak Zone PB
 
Smakman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Patterson, MO
 has been a member for 10 years
I use a RIP (Ref-In-Play) program to bolster my staffing. I pay my staff $200 for the weekend plus meals and sometimes I STILL can't get enough qualified people for the positions. I hand pick players that I know to be safe, fair and honest and give them the authority to handle incidents on the field just as the rest of the staff has and they have identification to that effect. Some people do not like the system, touting how it could be abused and that goes back to the people whom I choose to allow into that position. Yes, I have been disappointed in those I appointed to that position a couple of times, but, by and large, it has been a VERY effective way to curb cheating and outright stupidity during the events. Having "embedded refs" makes players think twice about a questionable move when they aren't sure the eyes of a ref might be on them and they don't know where that ref is.
__________________
Safety, honesty, fun.......in that order! SMAK ZONE PAINTBALL Home of Operation: Eminent Storm.
Smakman is offline  
Old 04-30-2007, 01:01 PM #21
thundertb (Banned)
The name is TB...just TB
 
thundertb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Omaha, TX
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudcrazy View Post
Okay, I've had enough of reading these posts. Silence, if you pull a "TB", like he did to you
Was there more to be said here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spudcrazy View Post
, you'll see that he has a combative nature. Having said that, TB is very smart when it comes to all things "scenario paintball", but he does like to belittle people with differeing opinions and go into their profiles to help him research to belittle.
Actually, Silence has posted these comments into most of the threads I have started and I have read his comments in others about what was wrong with a certain game. However saying what I said was belittling? LOL... How abouut your suck and your stupid? That would be Belittling, saying what I said was just saying it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spudcrazy View Post
I've seen where he has accused a 16 year old of being naive, just because he was 16, not knowing that some people might fake their age due to security reasons... (Oh, I'll get flamed for that!!!).
Actually it was a 19 year old kid, who then went on a tear about my grammar. However if you fake your age or pretend to be something you are not then well you get what you get. One thing about me is that I do not shirk from what I say and you can be sure I said it. Other then that, why would someone flame you? And when it came to offering a opinion, I didn't have an issue with anyone posting. When I asked for reasons or for a educated opinion, then we have a horse of another color.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spudcrazy View Post
However, I understood your post to be exactly what you said, a "non-comparison" and I think you did it eloquently, especially where you came back with your own quotes. (Although, I too disagree with it a bit.)
Actually he did compare it, with the comment paintball doesn't have soft penalties like holding in football. That is a comparison... plain and simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spudcrazy View Post
TB, I'm sure you're a nice guy, but you got pipe down a bit and when someone offer a differing opinion, or even one that you think is totally off the wall, handle it with a little more class. i.e. "I respectfully disagree with your opinion on the matter, but...."
Whatever gave you the idea I am a nice guy? I do not try to be nice, my friends are my friends. If you have my respect or talk to me in that manner then hey I will try to respond in kind. However there is nothing that says I have to be nice or polite or PC in my response. I didn't stop his offering a differing opinion, I simply tore it apart. And if he can't take my little comments then how will he ever be able to take on the GWM with any effectiveness? "LOL..... boohoo you hurt my feelings and I will never post on the internet again..... boohoo"

Quote:
Originally Posted by spudcrazy View Post
That concludes my rant on that topic.
Did not realize that your opinion of me and my comments was the topic of choice, however glad I could help you get that out of your system.
thundertb is offline  
 




Posting Rules
Forum Jump