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Old 05-18-2007, 03:40 PM #22
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I'm confused. You've got "Evidences that God is real, please?" listed both as something to use and something not to use.
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:00 PM #23
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they are both conversations between A and B
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:05 PM #24
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Originally Posted by TESlight'emupTES View Post
I'm confused. You've got "Evidences that God is real, please?" listed both as something to use and something not to use.
The important element of both conversations is actually A's respose to the request. If A chooses to respond to the question by listing evidence that God is real, all is good. However, if A chooses to respond defensively by insisting B prove god isn't real, that response is inappropriate.
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:12 PM #25
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good post
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:00 PM #26
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Ahh, wow. My fault guys, didn't really catch that one.

Yeah, school's in my brains, stealing my brain powers.
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Old 05-20-2007, 07:58 PM #27
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Nice, just discovered this got sticky'd. Hopefully it'll be beneficial.
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Old 05-21-2007, 03:15 AM #28
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Props getting your thread stickied.
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Old 01-12-2008, 03:49 PM #29
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"becuase the bible says so" is not proof
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Old 02-15-2008, 10:12 AM #30
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OK, so now that it's stikied, and we all agree that it's a great thread, what's the debate?
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:18 PM #31
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OK, so now that it's stikied, and we all agree that it's a great thread, what's the debate?
who's debating?
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:45 PM #32
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there's only one problem with the example, if someone insists on saying that the world is irreducably complex etc etc... they can always say that, but they don't know if the universe could be scientifically possible, I'd like to see some facts that it isn't possible if they are going to argue that point.
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Old 01-10-2009, 10:59 PM #33
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first post till may of last year. haha
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:08 AM #34
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for when the other thread gets lost:
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Derr here. I've seen a wash of dumb lately so I figured I better post up some things that everyone in this forum should already know.
  • Don't expect anyone to care about your ideas if you're not willing to use proper grammar, spelling and paragraphs.
  • Do gather information and evidence from reliable sources. Wiki is ok as long as there is ample support in the list of sources at the bottom. Articles written by people with a PhD after their name are good but remember to make sure the field of discussion is the same as their field of expertise. Websites with a .edu at the end are usually much better than any website with the word Jesus in the url.
  • Don't rely on hearsay. 'My youth pastor told me so' is not valid support for anything other than the date and time of the church group volleyball game.
  • Do look for facts that can be checked independently and for signs of obvious bias (such as paid testimonials).
  • Don't confuse cause with correlation.
  • Do separate facts from opinions.

There has also been a lot of misunderstanding of what is involved with the development of scientific theory. I'm always ashamed of the American education system every time I see a kid post 'scientists have just as much faith as religious people'. Come on guys, I know less than a third of our country has a college education but you can do better. This is grade school level knowledge.

OK, here's the scientific method:
  1. Observe some aspect of the natural world, then ask a question about it or identify a problem to explore.
  2. Develop a hypothesis. A hypothesis is a tentative explanation for an observation or how some natural process works.
  3. Make a prediction. A prediction states what you should observe about the question if the hypothesis is valid.
  4. Test the prediction. Most scientific testing is expansive and contains both experimental and control groups. Many iterations are tested to ensure wide scale accuracy. A minimum of attributes are varied to ensure specificity.
  5. Repeat the tests or develop new ones. The more the better. Hypotheses that are supported by the results of repeated testing are more likely to be correct.
  6. Analyze or report the test results and conclusions. Scientists publish their findings in peer reviewed journals, with a detailed description of their methods so that other researchers can try the same test and see if they obtain the same result. Scientific American is a great resource that keeps up to date articles of all aspects of science, written in a layman's fashion so that even those with only a high school science education can grasp an understanding of what is occurring.

Scientific theory is composed of this type of process compounded over many years and many individual scientists. Theory comes about when the predictions made are accurate to such a degree that dissension only comes from individuals who lack an understanding of the subject matter being discussed. Add physical evidence to theory and you have fact.

Real scientists research the topic before forming an opinion on it. They look at the record of information compiled by other scientists in the form of experiments and testing. After properly researching to the point of having an understanding of the subject matter, they will decide what to believe. If you are a religious person and you cannot say that you follow the above process to lead you to your belief in whatever, then don't tell me I have the same degree of faith as you, because I DO NOT.

Most of this was taken from the biology text book on my shelves. But this stuff is basic and you should all know it if you're old enough to get a username on this site.
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Old 04-22-2010, 05:40 PM #35
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“People believe in God because the world is very complicated and they think it is very unlikely that anything as complicated as a flying squirrel or the human eye or a brain could happen by chance. But they should think logically and if they thought logically they would see that they can only ask this question because it has already happened and they exist. And there are billions of planets where there is no life, but there is no one on those planets with brains to notice. And it is like if everyone in the world was tossing coins eventually someone would get 5,698 heads in a row and they would think they were very special. But they wouldn’t be because there would be millions of people who didn’t get 5,698 heads."

"And there is life on Earth because of an accident. But it is a very special kind of accident. And for this accident to happen in this special way, there have to be 3 conditions. And these are:
1. Things have to make copies of themselves (this is called Replication)
2. They have to make small mistakes when they do this (this is called Mutation)
3. These mistakes have to be the same in their copies (this is called Heritability)
And these conditions are very rare, but they are possible, and they cause life. And it just happens. But it doesn’t have to end up with rhinoceroses and human beings and whales. It could end up with anything."

some quotes from a book i recently read thought they were interesting
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:34 AM #36
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I approve of this thread. Seriously, even though I've been on this forum for years and I just read it, I feel that all of the new people would be doing themselves a favor by doing so.
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Old 12-15-2010, 03:16 AM #37
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Originally Posted by Mps2216 View Post
Many threads in ST:R suck. Let's face it, hardly any insight is being provided into the vast abyss that is religion. Every thread turns into a matter of personal insults and arguments over trivial problems and issues. Semantics and matters of fact and opinion are killing the intellectual debate scene that was once had. So, as a fairly avid poster in ST:R, I create this thread to resolve these issues now. Too many interesting questions and intellectual propositions have been discounted or lead astray because of other insignificant dilemmas.

So, I'm going to throw out a couple of principles/ideas that I feel are true and should be respected to ensure civility and intellectual prosperity. You're welcome to refute them, address them, change them, and add any. My only goal is to resolve these issues in this thread as to prevent the demise of other threads.

1. No person, not atheist or theist, 'knows' that any particular statement or principle to be absolute fact and universally true, in concerns with religion and cosmology. That is, presenting any belief as fact is unconstituted. Evolution or Yahweh, you believe it with or without evidences. Leave it that way.

Evolution believed without evidence? I advice you to speak to any credible scientist one and two http://www.talkorigins.org is a great website for info.

Now before I really begin I must tell you there is a huge difference from colloquial fact and fact. The difference is that one has all the evidence pointed to it and works every times tested (in the case of evolution) but we cannot definitely say that it is a fact. So evolution is a colloquial fact. But really if you think about it isn't even a fact we all exist, and we are talking on this forum we could be in a matrix or dream, you never know and the limitless objections on any topic are endless, but baseless.


2. The burden of proof is upon the one who makes the statement. If your statement is only substantiated by faith, let that be known. One who asks you to prove your statement need not provide a refutation until evidences of the original statement have been presented.



Example:

A: "I believe God is real"
B: "Evidences that God is real, please?"
A: "The universe is irreducibly complex, etc..."

Not permitted:

A: "I believe God is real"
B: "Evidences that God is real, please?"
A: "Prove he's not real"

While I agree that generally the one making the claim has the burden of proof it isn't always the case, again when you bring in the colloquial usage of terms it all gets mixed up. I think I can say "There is no god" just like I can say "There is no leprechauns". There is no proof for either and thusly it is not an assertion of a claim, but the understanding of the current point of the claim made by the religious.

But besides that and gripes I have with the first example (Dover trial) you seem to make sense and a good point.


3. No one can disprove or prove the existence of a deity. (Pantheism aside)

No one can disprove or prove the existence of unicorns. But I like to follow the simple little saying "Lack of evidence is evidence of absence" Meaning if there isn't evidence to support it there is no reason to believe it and for all intensive purposes isn't there. But once proof of a position is given this changes.

4. Micro-evolution is a scientific fact.* Macro-evolution is not. It has evidences but can not be stated as such a scientific fact as micro-evolution can.

The whole macro and micro thing is really overplayed. Micro and Macro are really the same thing. How can you walk a mile without taking one step at a time. By the way evolution has nothing to do with religion or atheism, nor does the big bang. But evolution is really a done deal, every field of science corroborates it and there is no proof otherwise.

*This does not conflict with principle 1. Scientific laws and facts may be stated as facts, but remember, there are those who do not respect science. Tread lightly.

5. If one asks for evidences of their belief, that same person should be ready to provide evidences of their belief. This mainly pertains to science versus religion. If one is going to demand evidences of a particular belief, he should also be held accountable for evidences of his beliefs.

Evidence for belief? Don't you mean the claim of their belief. Evidence of my belief or lack there of would simply be "I believe/don't believe x or y". If you mean of their claim if both parties debating are religious then yes I agree. But if one is an atheist and one is religious then no. Atheism is not a position, it is the lack of one so the proof of this is that "I don't believe in god".

6. The exception to principle 5: If one states their beliefs are objects of pure faith, and that is clearly stated, than they are not required to any extent to provide evidences.

Well to some degree I agree. But faith isn't a reason to believe anything, evidence is still needed, faith is NOT evidence for anything. Faith to me is the opposite of evidence. Faith is "Believing something not based on evidence". It speaks to the persons ability to suspend logic and reason not to use it as you imply. But I don't care if one has faith.

7. Logical fallacies concerning the existence of God do not disprove his existence. Their debates are entertaining and certainly fun to ponder, but prove little to nothing in reality.

Yes I agree, and you will very rarely find an atheist who says he can disprove god. But the religious tend to use these oh so often, any debate I have heard. So eh your point is valid just not a just equivocation.

8. Respect. Don't forget it. (Already thread on this)

Mhmm...

9. Keep threads on topic. If you find a problem particularly pertinent, refrain from hijacking a thread. Either find a thread where it is appropriate, or create a new one.

I hope this is a step forward for ST:R. Thanks.

My responses are in bold, I think it is funny that I am the first to disagree.
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Old 01-19-2011, 04:50 AM #38
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Hah, I just came across this again after leaving PbN for a few years. Couldn't resist responding... There used to be some excellent debates in this forum.

Quote:
Evolution believed without evidence? I advice you to speak to any credible scientist one and two http://www.talkorigins.org is a great website for info.

Now before I really begin I must tell you there is a huge difference from colloquial fact and fact. The difference is that one has all the evidence pointed to it and works every times tested (in the case of evolution) but we cannot definitely say that it is a fact. So evolution is a colloquial fact. But really if you think about it isn't even a fact we all exist, and we are talking on this forum we could be in a matrix or dream, you never know and the limitless objections on any topic are endless, but baseless.
Obviously most people who believe in Evolution do so as a result of the evidences pointing to it. Evolution specifically was not relevant to my point.

And your second point is exactly the sort of ad nauseum discussion I was trying to eliminate. I completely agree with your sentiment. People are still going to dispute 'science' so I was simply encouraging STR to focus on substantiating their arguments rather than using 'its a scientific fact' as a crutch.

Quote:
While I agree that generally the one making the claim has the burden of proof it isn't always the case, again when you bring in the colloquial usage of terms it all gets mixed up. I think I can say "There is no god" just like I can say "There is no leprechauns". There is no proof for either and thusly it is not an assertion of a claim, but the understanding of the current point of the claim made by the religious.
Again, I essentially agree. You seem to be splitting hairs when the point of my example was pretty obvious - it's useless to make claims that are intentionally baseless/undebateable.

Quote:
No one can disprove or prove the existence of unicorns. But I like to follow the simple little saying "Lack of evidence is evidence of absence" Meaning if there isn't evidence to support it there is no reason to believe it and for all intensive purposes isn't there. But once proof of a position is given this changes.
You just made an argument against God. Awesome. Go debate that in the forums. Not everyone agrees with you though, leading to the point of this point - It's useless to make universal claims about the existence of God; you're better off debating it.

Quote:
The whole macro and micro thing is really overplayed. Micro and Macro are really the same thing. How can you walk a mile without taking one step at a time. By the way evolution has nothing to do with religion or atheism, nor does the big bang. But evolution is really a done deal, every field of science corroborates it and there is no proof otherwise
Hah, maybe the dynamic of the forum has changed since I last was around, but Evolution is/was by no means a done deal. You are correct that they are essentially the same. However due to the timescale of Macro, it's unobservable and therefore disputable (scientifically speaking). And evolution is obviously related to religion, specifically Christianity/Judaism. I hope I don't have to explain that you. It also speaks to a larger dilemma in religious debate, that being the general complexity of the world.

Quote:
Well to some degree I agree. But faith isn't a reason to believe anything, evidence is still needed, faith is NOT evidence for anything. Faith to me is the opposite of evidence. Faith is "Believing something not based on evidence". It speaks to the persons ability to suspend logic and reason not to use it as you imply. But I don't care if one has faith.
Have you never talked to someone of faith? They often have reasons for their faith. RamboPreacher back in the day was an excellent debater on this side of the fence.

In general, your entire response was an argument against God/faith rather than a critique of religious debate etiquette, which was the purpose of my original post.
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Old 01-19-2011, 12:46 PM #39
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You'd like this: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/taxonomy.html

IMO on this subject, I'm always more interested in hearing why people believe what they do - no one's argument, no matter how good, is likely strong enough to change what someone believes in. So, in the interest of keeping it civil and sounding like I'm TELLING someone what they should believe in (and thus that what they believe is wrong), I simply ask that we 'exchange views' rather than debate the subject. It's usually more enlightening, too.
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:16 PM #40
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wow....mps....you missed out on all of 08 and 09. these forums were raging.

me, hsilman, dutchman, warbeak, der, and like 10 other guys who i can only think of their avatar
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:41 PM #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealmr View Post
You'd like this: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/taxonomy.html

IMO on this subject, I'm always more interested in hearing why people believe what they do - no one's argument, no matter how good, is likely strong enough to change what someone believes in. So, in the interest of keeping it civil and sounding like I'm TELLING someone what they should believe in (and thus that what they believe is wrong), I simply ask that we 'exchange views' rather than debate the subject. It's usually more enlightening, too.
In 'real life' conversations, I generally agree. However, I don't think most people post their views on the internet, and this forum in particular, to simply entice other people to share their views as well. Rather it seems they believe they can defend their view, so by enticing other people to engage it, they can ultimately expose the flaws in other people's rationale.

ie people like to argue.

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wow....mps....you missed out on all of 08 and 09. these forums were raging.

me, hsilman, dutchman, warbeak, der, and like 10 other guys who i can only think of their avatar
Wahhhhh? Like insightful argumentation? Like riveting philosophical issues, not like free will is a sham/god is godly/EVOLUTION RAWR?

Hmmm... I recognize der and warbeak. Then there was RamboPreacher, Topaz, adema, MVP... Intelligence certainly had a vocal contigency, just too swamped by drool.
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:00 PM #42
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However, I don't think most people post their views on the internet, and this forum in particular, to simply entice other people to share their views as well. Rather it seems they believe they can defend their view, so by enticing other people to engage it, they can ultimately expose the flaws in other people's rationale.
Assuming both parties are rational, seeing the others' face really does help tone down the screaming, trolling, eat-my-view *******s that are prevalent on forums.
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