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View Poll Results: Jesus
real 140 74.07%
fake 49 25.93%
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Old 05-17-2007, 02:38 PM #64
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It took Columbus sailing around the world to prove it was round.
Actually, this is a quaint fable. Everyone knew the world was round long before Columbus's time. The reason everyone thought Columbus was crazy is because he grossly underestimated the circumference of the earth when he suggested sailing west to get to India.

The knowledge that the earth was round (and the knowledge of how to estimate its circumference more accurately) had been known since the Greek Empire.

Just FYI.
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Old 05-17-2007, 07:33 PM #65
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Originally Posted by Seithman View Post
Actually, this is a quaint fable. Everyone knew the world was round long before Columbus's time. The reason everyone thought Columbus was crazy is because he grossly underestimated the circumference of the earth when he suggested sailing west to get to India.

The knowledge that the earth was round (and the knowledge of how to estimate its circumference more accurately) had been known since the Greek Empire.

Just FYI.
The why did the church insist it was flat?
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Old 05-17-2007, 08:54 PM #66
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who in the hell can split a sea by waving his hands...its impossible in so many ways...

so i stick with that maybe he really existed...but the bible has so many fantasy elements...that i would believe lord of the rings, or star wars actually exist over the story the bible presents.
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:43 AM #67
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Actually, this is a quaint fable. Everyone knew the world was round long before Columbus's time. The reason everyone thought Columbus was crazy is because he grossly underestimated the circumference of the earth when he suggested sailing west to get to India.

The knowledge that the earth was round (and the knowledge of how to estimate its circumference more accurately) had been known since the Greek Empire.

Just FYI.
No more of a fable than any of the Bible I assume. Anyone who has ever sailed can tell you the Earth is round, yet it was flat and the sun revolved around the Earth according to the church (so much for religion being the foremost ancient scientific entity.)

Yes, we can also get into a hour long discussion how Columbus was not the first person to discover America as well, yet there is a national holiday honoring him and that is what we teach our school children?

The fact is, that there are many things in history that are glazed over and just accepted with out questioning by a lot of people. Mostly Christians though that just accept what they hear without questioning.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:16 AM #68
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The why did the church insist it was flat?
They didn't.

I believe you are confusing the belief in a flat earth with the belief that the earth was the center of the Universe. The church believed the latter (and excommunicated Galileo for it). Not the former.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:18 AM #69
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No more of a fable than any of the Bible I assume. Anyone who has ever sailed can tell you the Earth is round, yet it was flat and the sun revolved around the Earth according to the church (so much for religion being the foremost ancient scientific entity.)
It seems to me that you're not one to let trivial things like facts get in the way of a bit of good old fashioned Christian bashing. Too bad you're a slave to the religion like that.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:28 AM #70
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They didn't.

I believe you are confusing the belief in a flat earth with the belief that the earth was the center of the Universe. The church believed the latter (and excommunicated Galileo for it). Not the former.
The Bible is, from Genesis to Revelation, a flat-earth book. ...While the Bible nowhere states categorically that the earth is flat, numerous Old Testament verses clearly show that the ancient Hebrews were flat-earthers. This comes through more clearly in modern translations such as the New English Bible, but it's clear enough in the King James Version. The Genesis creation story says the earth is covered by a vault (firmament) and that the celestial bodies move inside the vault.

That the earth was considered essentially flat is clear from Daniel, who said, "I saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth; the tree grew and became strong, reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds." (Daniel 4:10-11) Only on a flat earth could one see a tree reaching the sky (dome?) from "the earth's farthest bounds."

The New Testament also implies a flat earth. For instance, Matthew 4:8 says that "The devil took him [Jesus] to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory." From a sufficiently high mountain, one could see all of the kingdoms of the world"but only if the earth were flat. The same applies to Revelation 1:7, which says that at the second coming, "Every eye shall see him." Finally, Revelation 7:1 refers to "the four corners of the earth," and corners are not generally associated with spheres.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:32 AM #71
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The Genesis creation story says the earth is covered by a vault (firmament) and that the celestial bodies move inside the vault.

That the earth was considered essentially flat is clear from Daniel, who said, "I saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth; the tree grew and became strong, reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds." (Daniel 4:10-11) Only on a flat earth could one see a tree reaching the sky (dome?) from "the earth's farthest bounds."
Both of these are Old Testament passages. These passages were written thousands of years before Columbus. A lot changed in the interim.

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The New Testament also implies a flat earth. For instance, Matthew 4:8 says that "The devil took him [Jesus] to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory." From a sufficiently high mountain, one could see all of the kingdoms of the world"but only if the earth were flat. The same applies to Revelation 1:7, which says that at the second coming, "Every eye shall see him." Finally, Revelation 7:1 refers to "the four corners of the earth," and corners are not generally associated with spheres.
I suspect you're taking both of these passages far more literally than ever Christian has. However, I'll grant you that at least these passages were written in a time when the spherical nature of the world was fairly well known.

It truly amazes me how much time some of you put into finding reasons to bash a religion you claim not to follow. But then, I've always thought that that which we oppose can hold us in bondage as easily as that to which we subscribe.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:37 AM #72
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If you do not know the topic you are debating you should not debate it, thus my knowledge in such. And who is bashing any religion? I am merely using said religion to point out the fallicious nature of its followers. One of which I used to be as I was raised in this nonsense.
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Old 05-18-2007, 10:01 AM #73
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Both of these are Old Testament passages. These passages were written thousands of years before Columbus. A lot changed in the interim.

I suspect you're taking both of these passages far more literally than ever Christian has. However, I'll grant you that at least these passages were written in a time when the spherical nature of the world was fairly well known.

It truly amazes me how much time some of you put into finding reasons to bash a religion you claim not to follow. But then, I've always thought that that which we oppose can hold us in bondage as easily as that to which we subscribe.
QFT. good stuff. I have eluded to this in other threads. and that's all I will say about that.
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:47 PM #74
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It seems to me that you're not one to let trivial things like facts get in the way of a bit of good old fashioned Christian bashing. Too bad you're a slave to the religion like that.
The was the point I was trying to make was that people just accept what ever is told to them as fact. Especially certain people of certain theological beliefs, and that people that have these theological beliefs cannot go around setting the historical record straight, when so much of what they believe is in question and heresay.

"First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

I know that the idea of a round earth has been around since a long time before Columbus. I even stated that anyone who had ever sailed could tell you that the earth is round. You can see the earth curve at around 7NM. Not to mention that sailors back then used star navigation, and astronomy is one of the first things that will tell you that the earth is round because of the different constellations visible from different hemispheres.

You have no arguement, so you debate the way people phrase things, and you take it personal. The ideas behind what every one is saying is clear, and unless I really need to type everything out like a manual for you...
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:52 PM #75
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...I suspect you're taking both of these passages far more literally than ever Christian has. However, I'll grant you that at least these passages were written in a time when the spherical nature of the world was fairly well known.

It truly amazes me how much time some of you put into finding reasons to bash a religion you claim not to follow. But then, I've always thought that that which we oppose can hold us in bondage as easily as that to which we subscribe....
Will you please enlighten us non-believer slaves into which passages of the Bible that should be taken literally, and which should not?

I mean we are just quoteing from the book that you base your entire religous conviction and afterlife on.
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:53 PM #76
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Will you please enlighten us non-believer slaves into which passages of the Bible that should be taken literally, and which should not?
That's a good question. However, I will leave the task of answering it to people who actually follow the Bible.

As for your sarcasm, please give it a rest.
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:57 PM #77
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That's a good question. However, I will leave the task of answering it to people who actually follow the Bible.

As for your sarcasm, please give it a rest.
If you are not a follower of the Bible what makes you more qualified than any one else on these boards to determine the validity and level of literal interpretation of certain passages?

I understand, it is literal interpretation if it supports your arguement, and metaphorical mumbo-jumbo if it does not.

Not that it matters, but I am a follower of the Bible.
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Old 05-18-2007, 01:04 PM #78
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If you are not a follower of the Bible what makes you more qualified than any one else on these boards to determine the validity and level of literal interpretation of certain passages?
Nothing. Then again, I don't recall claiming I was more qualified to do so. All I said is that I suspected CP was interpreting those passages more literally than any Christian ever has. There's a world of difference there.

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I understand, it is literal interpretation if it supports your arguement, and metaphorical mumbo-jumbo if it does not.
My "argument" has been that during Columbus's time, not even the Church believed the earth was flat. (They believed it was the center of the universe, but I've seen no actual evidence that they believed it was flat.) So the question isn't even whether those passages should be taken as literally as CP is suggesting, but whether the church at the time did take it literally.

The question of how literally that or any other passage should be taken and how the determination should be made is another question.

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Not that it matters, but I am a follower of the Bible.
In what sense? So far, I've seen nothing but contempt for it from you.
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Old 05-18-2007, 01:18 PM #79
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My "argument" has been that during Columbus's time, not even the Church believed the earth was flat. (They believed it was the center of the universe, but I've seen no actual evidence that they believed it was flat.) So the question isn't even whether those passages should be taken as literally as CP is suggesting, but whether the church at the time did take it literally..
Yes you are correct in that.

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The question of how literally that or any other passage should be taken and how the determination should be made is another question..
Yes, and that leads to the next part...

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In what sense? So far, I've seen nothing but contempt for it from you.
I believe in the book not the people that preach a dogmatic (to use one of your words) message in an attempt to guilt people into falling in line.

Most religions as a whole are used as a type of brainwashing and mind control for the gaining of infuence both socially and financially.

You can not tell me that religion is not a business when your pastor drives a hummer and wears a $2000 suit when Jesus wore a man dress and rode a donkey...

Jesus never preached a religion, but a moral code.

Who can tell me the first commandment?
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Old 05-18-2007, 01:29 PM #80
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I believe in the book..
What exactly does that phrase mean to you?

Please understand that I'm asking sincerely and not looking to turn your answer against you. To be honest, one of my personal "grips" about this board (and people in general) is that far too much time is spent talking about what they disagree with or believe to be wrong and far too little time talking about what they perceive to be truth.

So again, in what sense do you believe in the book? What do you believe about it? How do you believe about it?

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Most religions as a whole are used as a type of brainwashing and mind control for the gaining of infuence both socially and financially.
There is a lot of that, yes. Though I'm too much of an optimist to sign on with "most," I guess. I'd rather focus on the good aspects of religion I've found, both in my own and in others.

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Jesus never preached a religion, but a moral code.
In the sense that you're using the word "religion," I might agree with you. My issue is that I tend to use a much broader definition for the word.

As an aside, one of my own criticisms of religion in general is that it's become far too focused on morality (and worse, a "punishment/reward" model of enforcing it).

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Who can tell me the first commandment?
"Know Thyself."

Oh wait, you meant in the Judeo-Christian tradition, huh? (Hey, I felt a bit of levity was in order.)

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:01 PM #81
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Crazy just crazy that a book written over 200 years ago based on the life death and resurrection of one man could change the world....and some people have doubt's of his existence.
Crazy that a book written over 50 years ago by a science-fiction author that tells of aliens coming to earth and being imprisoned by Xenu and put into human bodies is followed by thousands. Oh did i mention that psychiatry is evil, some people have super powers, Xenu had spacecrafts that looked suprisingly like DC-8s, and several more rediculous claims. Pretty scary stuff huh?
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:28 PM #82
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This is a stupid thread. It's commonly accepted that Jesus existed, its whether he was a god thats disputed.
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:35 PM #83
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This trhead has gone way off topic.....
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:38 PM #84
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This trhead has gone way off topic.....
And yet you added so much more to the topic with this post....
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