Complexity - Page 2 - PbNation
Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

 
Archived Thread - Cannot Edit  
Old 04-11-2007, 08:04 PM #22
MVPaintballer
Mega Flagellator
 
MVPaintballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: New Hope, PA
Annual Supporting Member
MVPaintballer is a Mega Moderator
MVPaintballer is a Supporting Member
MVPaintballer donated to help Peyton Trent
MVPaintballer supports Bob Gurnsey
MVPaintballer posts videos on PbNation
MVPaintballer supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynameisjonathon View Post
Yeah, its almost as complex as a single omniscient creating everything that exists today. Either side has its own complexities, unanswerable's, and other things. The only reason Christians get around it is because their entity is apparnetly way to awesome for us to understand.

Please like there is any other more potent theory out there.
Well things have remained somewhat respectable until you showed up, but I'll disregard that for now.

So you said a lot, but really only tried to bring Christianity down - which we're not arguing here. I'll put energy into a response when you respond to my claims.
__________________
If you don't have anything nice to say, say it on the internet.
MVPaintballer is offline  
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 04-11-2007, 08:13 PM #23
mynameisjonathon
This is the new sound..
 
mynameisjonathon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: TN
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MVPaintballer View Post
Well things have remained somewhat respectable until you showed up, but I'll disregard that for now.

So you said a lot, but really only tried to bring Christianity down - which we're not arguing here. I'll put energy into a response when you respond to my claims.
No, I was saying I'm not going to question my beleifes when I know there is not a more potent theory. Lets try to look behind what is right in front of our face, my comparrision might have been a bit degrading but thats not really what I meant.

How about this.

"I would find it hard to believe that any atheistic evolutionist will be unable to question his beliefs. "

I guess I am hard to beleive.

And seriously how do a lot Christian's deflect science questions? God is simply to complex for the human brain to understand.

I don't say evolution is to complex for you to understand, and then move on do I?
__________________
aim yooler
Rain down, rain down
Come on rain down on me
From a great height
From a great height... height...
Rain down, rain down

http://www.bestpanamacitybeachcondo.com

Last edited by mynameisjonathon : 04-11-2007 at 08:27 PM.
mynameisjonathon is offline  
Old 04-11-2007, 08:39 PM #24
TESlight'emupTES
My username is stupid
 
TESlight'emupTES's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: VA
 has been a member for 10 years
TESlight'emupTES donated to help Peyton Trent
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynameisjonathon View Post
And seriously how do a lot Christian's deflect science questions? God is simply to complex for the human brain to understand.
I'm guessing they do it the same way you deflect any question that MVP asks. Whenever he raises a topic that basically makes your atheist mindset crumble, either the thread dies or you guys make another "point."

Last edited by TESlight'emupTES : 04-11-2007 at 09:36 PM.
TESlight'emupTES is offline  
Old 04-11-2007, 08:45 PM #25
mynameisjonathon
This is the new sound..
 
mynameisjonathon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: TN
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TESlight'emupTES View Post
I'm guessing they do it the same way you deflect any question that MVP asks. Whenever he raises a topic that basically makes your atheist mindset crumbles, either the thread dies or you guys make another "point."
I'm not atheist. Your more Christian than I am atheist. I don't have passage of Orgin of Specis sighted off in my sig, or ATHEIST KREW!! I'm not really sure why you think I'm atheist but that aside.

All I wanted to point out was that every theory has its complexites. At least the evolution can be discussed, with an attempt to apply logic and rational to the situation. Thanks.
__________________
aim yooler
Rain down, rain down
Come on rain down on me
From a great height
From a great height... height...
Rain down, rain down

http://www.bestpanamacitybeachcondo.com

Last edited by mynameisjonathon : 04-11-2007 at 08:48 PM.
mynameisjonathon is offline  
Old 04-11-2007, 09:17 PM #26
alex06
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: DC Metro
Well I watched it and im not converted, so I guess it didnt work.
__________________
"Originally posted by automagwarrior: So you left the doctors office without asking him, to come home and ask the internet. Brilliant."
alex06 is offline  
Old 04-11-2007, 09:56 PM #27
Tippmann playa
Workin' dat insulin spike
 
Tippmann playa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nebraska
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynameisjonathon View Post
I'm not atheist. Your more Christian than I am atheist. I don't have passage of Orgin of Specis sighted off in my sig, or ATHEIST KREW!! I'm not really sure why you think I'm atheist but that aside.

All I wanted to point out was that every theory has its complexites. At least the evolution can be discussed, with an attempt to apply logic and rational to the situation. Thanks.
Christianity can be discussed, with the Bible. The problem is, many people try to discredit it because it is a religious text. There are plenty of evidences that help prove the validity of this text, but people(scientiss mainly) try to prove it with science, and when they cant, they just throw it in a group of things and think that somehow it makes sense

Edit: Wow, the end makes little sense. Ill leave it up for someone to comment on if they can understand it
__________________
"If you are reading this, thank a teacher.
If you are reading this in English, thank a soldier."

"Originally posted by pillowpants: i dont know how to decipher this chart, then again, i do go to a community college."
"Originally posted by Mr.AmaZiN: did you just use an apostrophe for want?"
"Originally posted by pb123456789: Or call her a **** and proceed to textrape her."
"Originally posted by dualimpact: They haven't walked in on me but they know, I'm a screamer."
Tippmann playa is offline  
Old 04-11-2007, 10:25 PM #28
mynameisjonathon
This is the new sound..
 
mynameisjonathon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: TN
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippmann playa View Post
Christianity can be discussed, with the Bible. The problem is, many people try to discredit it because it is a religious text. There are plenty of evidences that help prove the validity of this text, but people(scientiss mainly) try to prove it with science, and when they cant, they just throw it in a group of things and think that somehow it makes sense

Edit: Wow, the end makes little sense. Ill leave it up for someone to comment on if they can understand it
No christianty can not be disccused. I'm not going into an explination, I'm sure you can figure out why it can't be discussed the way I want it to be.
__________________
aim yooler
Rain down, rain down
Come on rain down on me
From a great height
From a great height... height...
Rain down, rain down

http://www.bestpanamacitybeachcondo.com
mynameisjonathon is offline  
Old 04-11-2007, 10:40 PM #29
Derr
•THE EDITOR•
 
Derr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by MVPaintballer View Post
Here is the paradox.

First RNA strand needs to code for translation proteins.
First RNA strand can't code for replication proteins without the translation proteins.
So even if you get a strand of RNA that can code for these translation proteins, the translation proteins don't exist yet, so you can't get the first translation.
Chicken or egg arguments don't prove anything.
__________________
::Derr's Epic Ride::

:shrimponatreadmill:
ssgaR:I genuinely dislike this derr guy. •• GE: Derr gets laid more often than you masturbate. *Nevar Forget*
TheMahone2491: Dont worry no matter what you say almighty Derr knows what YOU are thinking when you write your posts.
corporationpaintball: Derr has high standards, but to meet those standards should be a goal that you move towards because it will not only better your life in the long run, but the lives of those you are in contact with on an intellectual level.
DJ.Barman.helicopter[Pilot].sportbike[Rider].lineservice[Man]
Derr is offline  
Old 04-11-2007, 10:50 PM #30
MVPaintballer
Mega Flagellator
 
MVPaintballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: New Hope, PA
Annual Supporting Member
MVPaintballer is a Mega Moderator
MVPaintballer is a Supporting Member
MVPaintballer donated to help Peyton Trent
MVPaintballer supports Bob Gurnsey
MVPaintballer posts videos on PbNation
MVPaintballer supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derr View Post
Chicken or egg arguments don't prove anything.
Explain.
__________________
If you don't have anything nice to say, say it on the internet.
MVPaintballer is offline  
Old 04-11-2007, 10:55 PM #31
mynameisjonathon
This is the new sound..
 
mynameisjonathon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: TN
 has been a member for 10 years
If you are not trying to disprove evolution, how is this even related to religion at all? All it is a video, that really has nothing to do with religion.
__________________
aim yooler
Rain down, rain down
Come on rain down on me
From a great height
From a great height... height...
Rain down, rain down

http://www.bestpanamacitybeachcondo.com
mynameisjonathon is offline  
Old 04-11-2007, 11:05 PM #32
MVPaintballer
Mega Flagellator
 
MVPaintballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: New Hope, PA
Annual Supporting Member
MVPaintballer is a Mega Moderator
MVPaintballer is a Supporting Member
MVPaintballer donated to help Peyton Trent
MVPaintballer supports Bob Gurnsey
MVPaintballer posts videos on PbNation
MVPaintballer supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by mynameisjonathon View Post
If you are not trying to disprove evolution, how is this even related to religion at all? All it is a video, that really has nothing to do with religion.
So both sides can appreciate the intricacies of life?

However it turned into a debate thread as usual - but if you notice, I didn't start it.
__________________
If you don't have anything nice to say, say it on the internet.
MVPaintballer is offline  
Old 04-11-2007, 11:11 PM #33
KyPaintBawler (Banned)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Fairdale, Ky ~FHS~
Complexity is a result of evolution, in order to perform certain functions, our bodies needed to develop these sequences of events, and over time they became more complex. Now that was a short answer, but basically its what I'm trying to say. Either way, yes the human body, plants, animals, and everything alive are some amazing things, with how well the work. And how well they work, is also due to natural selection and adaptations.
KyPaintBawler is offline  
Old 04-12-2007, 01:06 AM #34
Derr
•THE EDITOR•
 
Derr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by MVPaintballer View Post
Explain.
Aww, do I have to?

Fine... You're making the assumption that one came before the other, ie. RNA needs translation protein to make translation protein. Which came first: RNA or the protein? Answer: neither. As you clearly portrayed, the situation is impossible. Either they arrose simultaneously or evolved through some other mechanism that you don't know of. This is a really easy thing to comprehend, but like most creationists you have used 'complexity' as the basis for your argument. Your conclusion: impossible because it is improbable. You'd make a horrible gambler.

Complex is a relative term. Complex to a human(you) may not be complex in reality(the universe). There are more complicated things than the process your video describes, should we assume a 'God-complex' because there are complicated things? A rubix cube is complicated but once you know the tricks, quite easy to solve.

In all honesty, you perturb me. I would have thought someone with your advanced education would be less likely to hold the beliefs that you do. Oh well, I won't pretend to know the details of your upbringing.
__________________
::Derr's Epic Ride::

:shrimponatreadmill:
ssgaR:I genuinely dislike this derr guy. •• GE: Derr gets laid more often than you masturbate. *Nevar Forget*
TheMahone2491: Dont worry no matter what you say almighty Derr knows what YOU are thinking when you write your posts.
corporationpaintball: Derr has high standards, but to meet those standards should be a goal that you move towards because it will not only better your life in the long run, but the lives of those you are in contact with on an intellectual level.
DJ.Barman.helicopter[Pilot].sportbike[Rider].lineservice[Man]
Derr is offline  
Old 04-12-2007, 11:08 AM #35
Diomedes
Nerd
 
Diomedes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Millburn, NJ
Diomedes is playing at Living Legends III
If we're going to use design as an argument for god, you have to have a way of detecting and quantifying it. Irreducible complexity and specificied complexity were semi-attempts at such methods, and both failed. The "appearence" of design means nothing; it's been experimentally demonstrated that variation and selection are sufficient to increase information/complexity. The only people who take design arguments seriously are those without an understanding of evolutionary biology. Even the people who came up with ID don't actually believe it, they just sell it because creationism is a no-no in schools.
__________________
Zombie Defense Force, Local 42 #61 "Darwin"
Zombie Defense Dispatches <--YouTube channel. Reviews, helmetcam, odds and ends. Updated more-or-less weekly. Subscribe!
Looking for a new mask? See how they compare.
"Integrity is doing what's right, even if nobody is looking." My PBN feedback
Diomedes is offline  
Old 04-12-2007, 11:15 AM #36
drefish99
Baby Jesus FTW!!!
 
drefish99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NOR*CHI
Annual Supporting Member
drefish99 is a Mega Moderator
drefish99 is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Fascinating how things work. Thanks for sharing the cool vid. I would love to see how tiny that camera was to capture all that.
__________________
Romans 6:23
“God never promises to remove us from our struggles. He does promise, however, to change the way we look at them.”-Max Lucado

Well the thing I find most amazing
In amazing grace
Is the chance to give it out
Maybe that's what love is all about



The most he did was die for me, the least I can do is live for him.
drefish99 is offline  
Old 04-12-2007, 02:15 PM #37
MVPaintballer
Mega Flagellator
 
MVPaintballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: New Hope, PA
Annual Supporting Member
MVPaintballer is a Mega Moderator
MVPaintballer is a Supporting Member
MVPaintballer donated to help Peyton Trent
MVPaintballer supports Bob Gurnsey
MVPaintballer posts videos on PbNation
MVPaintballer supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derr View Post
Aww, do I have to?

Fine... You're making the assumption that one came before the other, ie. RNA needs translation protein to make translation protein. Which came first: RNA or the protein? Answer: neither. As you clearly portrayed, the situation is impossible. Either they arrose simultaneously or evolved through some other mechanism that you don't know of. This is a really easy thing to comprehend, but like most creationists you have used 'complexity' as the basis for your argument. Your conclusion: impossible because it is improbable. You'd make a horrible gambler.

Complex is a relative term. Complex to a human(you) may not be complex in reality(the universe). There are more complicated things than the process your video describes, should we assume a 'God-complex' because there are complicated things? A rubix cube is complicated but once you know the tricks, quite easy to solve.

In all honesty, you perturb me. I would have thought someone with your advanced education would be less likely to hold the beliefs that you do. Oh well, I won't pretend to know the details of your upbringing.
I don't think you understand the mechanism of translation.

So you're suggesting that a series of complex proteins, lets say a simplified version of todays prokaryotic 70S ribosome (which contains over 50 proteins, or 50 genes). So we'll cut that in half and say 25 genes. These proteins mutated (even though we don't see that in nature) to form a translation machine. While the coincidence of the (now useless) genetic material mutates within a few nanometers of this translation protein - completely separate from the mutation of the translator.
This also isn't taking into account the rRNA, initiators (and their factor proteins), and specificity of tRNA.

Surely we see things in the past still present in todays organisms, even primitive worms show us present eucoeloms. We still see evidence between Prokaryotes and Eukaryotes... however we only see very limited forms of protein synthesis, all of which are very complex and energy expensive.

Most evolutionists are throwing out ideas that have no data or evidence to support them, which in my mind makes them hypocrites.
__________________
If you don't have anything nice to say, say it on the internet.

Last edited by MVPaintballer : 04-12-2007 at 02:33 PM.
MVPaintballer is offline  
Old 04-12-2007, 02:33 PM #38
Derr
•THE EDITOR•
 
Derr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Wow, I was really not prepared for something that far from the point of my post.

Is that a challenge? Like, you want me to go research the translation mechanism and copy/paste my findings on here? Does that sentance somehow invalidate everything I wrote previously?
__________________
::Derr's Epic Ride::

:shrimponatreadmill:
ssgaR:I genuinely dislike this derr guy. •• GE: Derr gets laid more often than you masturbate. *Nevar Forget*
TheMahone2491: Dont worry no matter what you say almighty Derr knows what YOU are thinking when you write your posts.
corporationpaintball: Derr has high standards, but to meet those standards should be a goal that you move towards because it will not only better your life in the long run, but the lives of those you are in contact with on an intellectual level.
DJ.Barman.helicopter[Pilot].sportbike[Rider].lineservice[Man]
Derr is offline  
Old 04-12-2007, 02:36 PM #39
Lehk
<3 Phoenix
 
Lehk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by MVPaintballer View Post
I don't think you understand the mechanism of translation.
tanslation occurs without translation proteins, it is just much slower.
__________________
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
FOR SALE: PARACHUTE. ONLY USED ONCE, NEVER OPENED, SMALL STAIN.
If you find 'the answer' it's just because you stopped looking
Lehk is offline  
Old 04-12-2007, 02:55 PM #40
MVPaintballer
Mega Flagellator
 
MVPaintballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: New Hope, PA
Annual Supporting Member
MVPaintballer is a Mega Moderator
MVPaintballer is a Supporting Member
MVPaintballer donated to help Peyton Trent
MVPaintballer supports Bob Gurnsey
MVPaintballer posts videos on PbNation
MVPaintballer supports our troops
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lehk View Post
tanslation occurs without translation proteins, it is just much slower.
I've never heard of this... link? I know Transcription does, but I can't imagine how translation would...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derr View Post
Wow, I was really not prepared for something that far from the point of my post.
You're the one who posted far from the point of mine. Its not that these structures are complex (even though they are), its that the most basic tools of cellular life are so numerous and precise, that to believe that these evolved together, as in all at once, is ridiculous.

They discovered the minimum number of genes needed to sustain life... it was 500.
__________________
If you don't have anything nice to say, say it on the internet.
MVPaintballer is offline  
Old 04-12-2007, 02:57 PM #41
Derr
•THE EDITOR•
 
Derr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Morro Bay, CA
So... Again you've come straight back to - it's impossible because it's so improbable.
__________________
::Derr's Epic Ride::

:shrimponatreadmill:
ssgaR:I genuinely dislike this derr guy. •• GE: Derr gets laid more often than you masturbate. *Nevar Forget*
TheMahone2491: Dont worry no matter what you say almighty Derr knows what YOU are thinking when you write your posts.
corporationpaintball: Derr has high standards, but to meet those standards should be a goal that you move towards because it will not only better your life in the long run, but the lives of those you are in contact with on an intellectual level.
DJ.Barman.helicopter[Pilot].sportbike[Rider].lineservice[Man]
Derr is offline  
Old 04-12-2007, 08:06 PM #42
mynameisjonathon
This is the new sound..
 
mynameisjonathon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: TN
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MVPaintballer View Post
So both sides can appreciate the intricacies of life?

However it turned into a debate thread as usual - but if you notice, I didn't start it.
How could you say, IF THIS DOESN"T CHANGE YOUR BELIEFS EWE INSANE, and not expect someone to be like, no.

You ensured debate when you made a thread like this, to say you didn't would be quite redicilous.
__________________
aim yooler
Rain down, rain down
Come on rain down on me
From a great height
From a great height... height...
Rain down, rain down

http://www.bestpanamacitybeachcondo.com

Last edited by mynameisjonathon : 04-12-2007 at 08:08 PM.
mynameisjonathon is offline  
 




Posting Rules
Forum Jump