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Old 04-02-2007, 02:51 PM #1
paintballer929 (Banned)
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Survival of The Fittest

I went to my youth group (I'm an atheist, but I do it with a friend who's Christian) and then the youth pastor started talking about a story where a man brought snakes onto an island, and the environmentalists were scared that these snakes would reproduce and overrun the island (It's a typical scenario, happens alot). He then said that he didn't understand why scientists were so scared, because they claim that survival of the fittest will wipe out unfit species (He meant that the scientists stories were inconsistent). I didn't answer (I'm at a youth group where people are Christians, so of course they think that God made everything) because I didn't want to piss anybody off, but it amazes me that with all of the fossils that have been found of organisms that resemble modern day organisms, but show different traits and signs of evolution, that he would still think that no organisms evolved. Also, it's a simple concept that an organism that is unfit (a white albino deer in a green/brown forest, or a fish with a too small fin) for it's environment will be eaten or starve. I think it's just amazing. Anyhow, that's the end of my rant, I just wanted to know what you guys think. Please, keep it civilized. I don't mean to start an argument, just a discussion.

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Old 04-02-2007, 02:54 PM #2
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I think I missed what your pastor/youth group thinks.
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Old 04-02-2007, 02:55 PM #3
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It is interesting that the phrase 'survival of the fittest' is never once mentioned in the Origin of Species, yet it tends to be one of the most propogated mantras of evolutionists.
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Old 04-02-2007, 02:56 PM #4
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He thinks that "Survival of the fittest" is a crock of BS (not in those words). Like I said, it's kind of hard to considering all of the evidence supporting it.
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Old 04-02-2007, 02:57 PM #5
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Originally Posted by Mps2216 View Post
It is interesting that the phrase 'survival of the fittest' is never once mentioned in the Origin of Species, yet it tends to be one of the most propogated mantras of evolutionists.
It mentions "natural selection", which means the exact same thing.
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:00 PM #6
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What? I think that you are massively misinterpreting what he said. He said that humans should be taken into account when thinking about natural selection. By saying that he thinks that humans should be included in the system, he is saying that the system exists. And yet, you say that he doesn't believe in natural selection?

Edit: I seriously ****ing hope that you left something out of your post. How in God's name do you jump from what he said to "he doesn't believe that creatures evolve"? Please, let there be more to this story. If there isn't, then you are an idiot.
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Originally posted by ElTwitcho: "I personally have found that not only is it not necessary for everyone to see your viewpoint and agree with it, but often times it would not even be beneficial to both parties for such an arrangement to take place. He sees things differently from you, there's really no reason to take issue with that or even really worry about it. Observe his position, listen to it, evaluate it's merits and take what you will from it. Beyond that... who cares?"

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Old 04-02-2007, 03:01 PM #7
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Natural selection has been proven...
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:02 PM #8
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He said clearly that he thinks that it doesn't exist.
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:04 PM #9
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No he didn't! Unless you left something out, all he did was validate that the system exists; he was far from saying that it doesn't exist.
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Originally posted by ElTwitcho: "I personally have found that not only is it not necessary for everyone to see your viewpoint and agree with it, but often times it would not even be beneficial to both parties for such an arrangement to take place. He sees things differently from you, there's really no reason to take issue with that or even really worry about it. Observe his position, listen to it, evaluate it's merits and take what you will from it. Beyond that... who cares?"
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:06 PM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballer929 View Post
He said clearly that he thinks that it doesn't exist.
I personally have found that not only is it not necessary for everyone to see your viewpoint and agree with it, but often times it would not even be beneficial to both parties for such an arrangement to take place. He sees things differently from you, there's really no reason to take issue with that or even really worry about it. Observe his position, listen to it, evaluate it's merits and take what you will from it. Beyond that... who cares?
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:08 PM #11
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Originally Posted by elTwitcho View Post
I personally have found that not only is it not necessary for everyone to see your viewpoint and agree with it, but often times it would not even be beneficial to both parties for such an arrangement to take place. He sees things differently from you, there's really no reason to take issue with that or even really worry about it. Observe his position, listen to it, evaluate it's merits and take what you will from it. Beyond that... who cares?
Good philosophy.

Twitch - Can you explain to me where the pastor "clearly said that [evolution] doesn't exist"? I am quite confused right now.
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Originally posted by ElTwitcho: "I personally have found that not only is it not necessary for everyone to see your viewpoint and agree with it, but often times it would not even be beneficial to both parties for such an arrangement to take place. He sees things differently from you, there's really no reason to take issue with that or even really worry about it. Observe his position, listen to it, evaluate it's merits and take what you will from it. Beyond that... who cares?"
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:10 PM #12
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Originally Posted by Mps2216 View Post
It is interesting that the phrase 'survival of the fittest' is never once mentioned in the Origin of Species, yet it tends to be one of the most propogated mantras of evolutionists.
Survival of the Fittest = Natural Selection

Altough Darwin did not create the Theory of Evolution, he was a proponent of Evolution did think up Natural Selection, which is the exact same thing as Survival of the Fittest.
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:11 PM #13
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Originally Posted by PsykoRoman View Post
Edit: I seriously ****ing hope that you left something out of your post. How in God's name do you jump from what he said to "he doesn't believe that creatures evolve"? Please, let there be more to this story. If there isn't, then you are an idiot.
I fixed the story, it should make sense.
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:12 PM #14
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Eh, I don't see it "clearly" myself so I can't help you there

I think the implication the pastor was making was that these snakes were supposedly animals that did not belong on the island. If the scientists believed in natural selection, they would not worry about it because natural selection would remove the snakes on it's own.

I think the combination of a bad understanding of natural selection on the pastor's part as well as some unclear exposition on the part of the OP has made it pretty damn hard for anyone to have a clear grasp on this thread
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:15 PM #15
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It still doesn't make sense to me. He never claims, or even mentions, evolution. All he said was that humans should be taken into account when discussing natural selection. Granted, this is an incorrect theory when humans artificially introduce a species into an ecosystem, but it in no way insinuates that evolution is an invalid theory.

Edit: Twitch - I think you pretty much got it. Thanks for the explanation.

Edit2: Oh yeah, if you don't mind Twitch, I sigged what you said earlier.
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Originally posted by ElTwitcho: "I personally have found that not only is it not necessary for everyone to see your viewpoint and agree with it, but often times it would not even be beneficial to both parties for such an arrangement to take place. He sees things differently from you, there's really no reason to take issue with that or even really worry about it. Observe his position, listen to it, evaluate it's merits and take what you will from it. Beyond that... who cares?"
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:18 PM #16
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Originally Posted by PsykoRoman View Post
It still doesn't make sense to me. He never claims, or even mentions, evolution. All he said was that humans should be taken into account when discussing natural selection. Granted, this is an incorrect theory when humans artificially introduce a species into an ecosystem, but it in no way insinuates that evolution is an invalid theory.

Edit: Twitch - I think you pretty much got it. Thanks for the explanation.

Edit2: Oh yeah, if you don't mind Twitch, I sigged what you said earlier.
Organisms evolving refers to them becoming more fit for their environment.
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:19 PM #17
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No problem, don't mind at all
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:22 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldEaglev2 View Post
Survival of the Fittest = Natural Selection

Altough Darwin did not create the Theory of Evolution, he was a proponent of Evolution did think up Natural Selection, which is the exact same thing as Survival of the Fittest.
...

The only point I made is that the phrase 'survival of the fittest' is never once used in the Origin of Species. I made no other implications.
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:52 PM #19
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Natural selection is blatantly obvious...
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Old 04-02-2007, 04:04 PM #20
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Originally Posted by Mps2216 View Post
...

The only point I made is that the phrase 'survival of the fittest' is never once used in the Origin of Species. I made no other implications.
It sounded like you were implying that the main tenet of modern arguments (Survival of the Fittest) isn't even in Origin of the Species. At least that's what I got from your first post.
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Old 04-02-2007, 04:35 PM #21
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Originally Posted by paintballer929 View Post
I went to my youth group (I'm an atheist, but I do it with a friend who's Christian) and then the youth pastor started talking about a story where a man brought snakes onto an island, and the environmentalists were scared that these snakes would reproduce and overrun the island (It's a typical scenario, happens alot). He then said that he didn't understand why scientists were so scared, because they claim that survival of the fittest will wipe out unfit species (He meant that the scientists stories were inconsistent). I didn't answer (I'm at a youth group where people are Christians, so of course they think that God made everything) because I didn't want to piss anybody off, but it amazes me that with all of the fossils that have been found of organisms that resemble modern day organisms, but show different traits and signs of evolution, that he would still think that no organisms evolved. Also, it's a simple concept that an organism that is unfit (a white albino deer in a green/brown forest, or a fish with a too small fin) for it's environment will be eaten or starve. I think it's just amazing. Anyhow, that's the end of my rant, I just wanted to know what you guys think. Please, keep it civilized. I don't mean to start an argument, just a discussion.

I think is was doggone polite and respectful of you to keep peace.

Maybe this level of maturity would help open a door for a conversation between you and the pastor.
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