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View Poll Results: Do you believe that there is no God or do you know that there is no God?
I believe that there is no God 51 62.96%
I Know that there is no God 30 37.04%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

 
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Old 04-01-2007, 04:45 PM #22
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You do realize I can take the same thing your doing, and apply it to Christians?

There's faith on both sides of the equation, we already know that.
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Old 04-01-2007, 04:47 PM #23
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As much as I would like to believe their is a god I know their can't be. It's common sense.
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Old 04-01-2007, 04:50 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenMike View Post
I do not think it's an either or proposition. One can not believe there is a god (i.e., be an atheist), while at the same time believe that is it unknowable or unknown whether such a deity actually does exist (i.e., be an agnostic).
I think we would say that an agnostic neither affirms nor denies the existence of a Deity, while an Atheist actively denies the existence of a diety, however an atheist cannot prove the non-existence of God in the same way that a Theist cannot actively prove the existence of a God. To hold the belief has an atheist requires faith, it is not experience that disproves God in an Atheists mind, but lack of experience with God, however since an atheist has not experienced every part of the universe they cannot say with complete confidence that God does not exist, it takes faith. Thus, unless you are basing your disbelief in God on faith, which I don't think many atheists do than you should not consider yourself an atheist, but instead one who cannot prove nor disprove the existence of God or an agnostic with atheistic beliefs.
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Old 04-01-2007, 04:52 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mynameisjonathon View Post
You do realize I can take the same thing your doing, and apply it to Christians?

There's faith on both sides of the equation, we already know that.
I'm more than aware and despite what you may think I am not a Christian.

The issue of faith is brought up all the time when discussing Christianity, but I have yet to see it brought up regarding atheism, which is my reasoning for this thread.
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Old 04-01-2007, 04:55 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412 View Post
I'm more than aware and despite what you may think I am not a Christian.

The issue of faith is brought up all the time when discussing Christianity, but I have yet to see it brought up regarding atheism, which is my reasoning for this thread.
I never said you were, I was just making the conjecture that most people realize that there is faith on both sides. The fact is the faith spawns from different ideoloigies. By your defination everyone should be agnostic, but I don't see you saying Christians should be, just atheists, which is where my problem is.

This thread should be question to all beleivers, and have 4 questions 2 of which mirror each other, and the other two mirror themselves as well.
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Old 04-01-2007, 05:11 PM #27
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So you have faith that there is no God, despite no proof of God's nonexistence?
I don't have faith that there isn't a god...
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Old 04-01-2007, 05:26 PM #28
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Quote:
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I never said you were, I was just making the conjecture that most people realize that there is faith on both sides. The fact is the faith spawns from different ideoloigies. By your defination everyone should be agnostic, but I don't see you saying Christians should be, just atheists, which is where my problem is.

This thread should be question to all beleivers, and have 4 questions 2 of which mirror each other, and the other two mirror themselves as well.
I understand your point, but faith I felt was much more common on the Christian side than it was the Atheist side. I am considering making a seperate thread later, but arguing against the bible is always annoying.
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I don't have faith that there isn't a god...
If you don't have faith that there isn't a god, that means that you must have empirical evidence for God's nonexistence; otherwise you must logically retain doubt regarding about God's nonexistence. Because without evidence you must be basing your belief on faith. So where is this absolute empircal evidence?
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Old 04-01-2007, 05:40 PM #29
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I think your point is really a matter of semantics. What the belief or lack of belief is termed is really irrelevant to the the the belief or lack of belief itself. The term faith also tends to have many connotations that are often associated with theistic philosophies that can not be attributed to atheism. Concepts such as trust and consequence (disputable) for instance. Perhaps one considers an absence of evidence, evidence in itself. (I don't care about a quote that states otherwise). What is existence anyway? Is existence simply what can be apprehended within our own realities? If that is existence to me, than don't I know God doesn't exist, simply because I can't detect him within my own reality or existence?
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Old 04-01-2007, 05:46 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412 View Post
I think we would say that an agnostic neither affirms nor denies the existence of a Deity, while an Atheist actively denies the existence of a diety ...
I understand that's what your saying, but I don't accept that it's true. Agnosticism refers to the "knowability" of the truth, while the term atheism simply means without a belief in god(s). I can both not have a belief in god(s) and believe that it is unknown whether there actually are gods or not.

There is no contradiction.
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Old 04-01-2007, 06:07 PM #31
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How can you know there is no God? Just curious.
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Old 04-01-2007, 06:10 PM #32
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How can you know there is no God? Just curious.
The same way we know there are not little pink unicorns running around. There has never been proof there was a god to begin with, therefore he is a creation of man.
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Old 04-01-2007, 06:16 PM #33
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The same way we know there are not little pink unicorns running around. There has never been proof there was a god to begin with, therefore he is a creation of man.
You can know there is no God, and you can preach it 'till your face turns blue, but at the end of the day it's really just you believeing there is no God - just as we Christians belive there is a God.
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Old 04-01-2007, 06:18 PM #34
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You can know there is no God, and you can preach it 'till your face turns blue, but at the end of the day it's really just you believeing there is no God - just as we Christians belive there is a God.
I am not preaching it. I have never tried to recruit anyone to my side of the coin. I have never went door to door. You cannot say something exists until you have proof it is there. Since there has never been a single shread of proof that there is a god, there is none.
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Old 04-01-2007, 06:20 PM #35
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I am not preaching it. I have never tried to recruit anyone to my side of the coin. I have never went door to door. You cannot say something exists until you have proof it is there. Since there has never been a single shread of proof that there is a god, there is none.
Jesus resurrecting himself from the dead 3 days later? Seems sort of like proof to me, but granted other people may think it's made up.

And I didn't say you were preaching it, I said you could preach it.
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Old 04-01-2007, 06:22 PM #36
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Jesus resurrecting himself from the dead 3 days later? Seems sort of like proof to me, but granted other people may think it's made up.

And I didn't say you were preaching it, I said you could preach it.
There is no proof anyone arose from the grave 3 days later.
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Old 04-01-2007, 06:24 PM #37
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There is no proof anyone arose from the grave 3 days later.
Except scrips written back then...

Don't ask for a source, because I don't have one, it was just one of those things I read and said "cool" and clicked off of. I'm pretty sure there were scripts outside of the Bible that said it, though.
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Old 04-01-2007, 06:26 PM #38
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Except scrips written back then...

Don't ask for a source, because I don't have one, it was just one of those things I read and said "cool" and clicked off of. I'm pretty sure there were scripts outside of the Bible that said it, though.
I would like to read this if you can find it. The source is very important.
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Old 04-01-2007, 06:49 PM #39
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I believe that there is no god. I don't believe there's a way to know for sure. I find it very very very unlikely that there is one.
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Old 04-01-2007, 07:10 PM #40
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To the posters above this thread is not about Christianity vs Atheism, I would appreciate it if you didn't make it into that.

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I think your point is really a matter of semantics. What the belief or lack of belief is termed is really irrelevant to the the the belief or lack of belief itself.
I'm trying to assert that in order to be an atheist your belief does not rest on empirical evidence, but on faith just like theists.


Quote:
What is existence anyway? Is existence simply what can be apprehended within our own realities? If that is existence to me, than don't I know God doesn't exist, simply because I can't detect him within my own reality or existence?
I know we differ on these terms, but I will try to demonstrate my point anyway. You only know that God doesn't exist if you are willing to assert that the future will always resemble the present. I believe that that assertion is completely unfounded, because all the knowledge we have comes from past experience and since our past experiences are not all encompassing then we cannot know for sure anything which we have not experienced.

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I understand that's what your saying, but I don't accept that it's true. Agnosticism refers to the "knowability" of the truth, while the term atheism simply means without a belief in god(s). I can both not have a belief in god(s) and believe that it is unknown whether there actually are gods or not.
There is no contradiction.
Here is what I am saying there is no proof that God does not exist, therefore one's belief that there is no God is not based on empirical evidence, but on faith. This is the same principle, which the belief in God should and often is founded. If one believes in atheism because of faith then they are well within their bounds to do so, but otherwise they should not declare themselves atheists, but agnostics who while believing that God does not exist, do not affirm God's nonexistence as fact.
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Old 04-01-2007, 07:30 PM #41
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The point has been made I'm not sure what were still disccusing. According to Adema we should all be agnostic. /thread.
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Old 04-01-2007, 07:39 PM #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412
I'm trying to assert that in order to be an atheist your belief does not rest on empirical evidence, but on faith just like theists.
I realize this. However, even if it is termed faith, it does not alter what the belief or faith actually is, which would be a more crucial issue. I gathered that the implicit assertion you were conveying was to make some Atheists aware that the 'belief without evidence' argument actually applied to themselves as well. I agree to some extent, however, the dichotomy between belief in the existence of an entity and the belief in the nonexistence of an entity is vastly different in many respects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412
I know we differ on these terms, but I will try to demonstrate my point anyway. You only know that God doesn't exist if you are willing to assert that the future will always resemble the present. I believe that that assertion is completely unfounded, because all the knowledge we have comes from past experience and since our past experiences are not all encompassing then we cannot know for sure anything which we have not experienced.
From a rational perspective, the future will reflect the past because both occur and progress upon the same principles. Although speculation concerning the future is fairly worthless and quite irrelevant to my own perspective. If my beliefs considered all possibilities which may or may not be viable events in the future, well, it wouldn't be much of a belief at all. My reality only entails the present and what I remember from the past. When the future becomes my present, my perspective will reflect it and perhaps any realizations it might provide.
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