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Old 04-14-2008, 05:02 PM #85
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First I would contact the attorney general of the state he is in. Have everyone he owes guns or money to contact them. It may be that what this guy is doing constitutes interstate fraud. At that point it is a federal offense and he might get criminally prosecuted.
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:09 PM #86
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Just an update, a few more got stuff from him. He is working on them.
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Old 04-25-2008, 03:04 PM #87
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First, I haven't attacked anyone's family. Second, there was a team of people, including a sheriff's deputy who ASKED me to post this info, so that anyne else in the same position would know where to start. His personal info is required in every kind of complaint form. If it disgusts you, why are you reading it?
I didn't mean that you attacked his family, I meant that some people in this thread have talked about or actually done things like insulting his wife and what not; thats just not right.
I have no real beef with what you've done, I don't know what the complaint form says; it just seems to me that posting something like a home phone number (especially if unlisted) isn't right. He has business contact info for a reason, since this is a BUSINESS transaction.

The legality of it isn't my problem, more the morality. Sure, it may be "legal" to post home phone numbers and things like that, but to me that crosses the line, especially if he has an unlisted phone number. I have one, which cannot be found through phone books or internet searches and things like that. It is like that for a reason.

That's just my view though, if a Sheriff's deputy wanted you to post the information than whatever.
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Old 04-25-2008, 04:34 PM #88
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Updates on progress.
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Old 04-25-2008, 09:00 PM #89
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After I got Officer Papke to do my emailing for me, his response was to mail my gun. He mailed it to the wrong address when I KNOW he had the right one, so I still haven't got it, but I'll say it again; Follow the instructions in my first post and you will get your stuff back. He will not ignore her, and he can't explain why he's had your gun for years either, so he ships it. It may not be done, but if it isn't, go through her, then sue him. Be sure to fill out the complaint form BEFORE you email Officer Papke. Someone else had the sherrif serve him papers, then he helped me turn the Oregon DA's office (among others) onto this guy. Now he's shipping stuff out. You can't argue with progress. Alot of people got involved on this.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:05 PM #90
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Looks like his shop blog has been taken down.

The reason they protect him over at PHOG is because his buddies seem to get their work first. I believe some people over there have received more than one project in the last few years. Some other people received their projects within a few months while others have waited years.

I'm done being patient...especially since I haven't heard from him since January of 2007 when he said he'd have something for me in a few weeks (PM sent on old PHOG) and my last e-mail is dated 3/6/06 (thank google for creating gmail). I'm going through Officer Papke like many others have done.

I've even sent him e-mails stating that I would take my marker back unannodized, since he said the milling was done. No reply.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:45 PM #91
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Its up for me. It hasn't been updated. I expect a 3 year update cycle.
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Old 05-19-2008, 01:00 PM #92
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http://punishers-customs.com/wordpress/

Its up for me. It hasn't been updated. I expect a 3 year update cycle.
I should've clarified...its off of his web page.

http://www.airsoldier.com/~punisher/
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:02 PM #93
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The reason they protect him over at PHOG is because his buddies seem to get their work first. I believe some people over there have received more than one project in the last few years. Some other people received their projects within a few months while others have waited years.
Bet you those guys are getting dibs on Crowdbusters.
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:18 PM #94
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It's not like he didn't warn/threaten to move griefers to the bottom of the list if they didn't stop. Sadly, this might be a game of musical chairs....when the music stops, I wonder how many people will be standing empty handed.

apunkjunkie I am surprised he is delaying you however since you were a longtime defender of his delays. You don't deserve this wait. I am pulling for you man.

Of course the Phog crew is going to get their work first. They were his greatest fans through all this. Note that all the newest work appears incomplete. He may just be putting stuff together as-is and sending it back.
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:15 PM #95
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Originally Posted by warfinge View Post
It's not like he didn't warn/threaten to move griefers to the bottom of the list if they didn't stop. Sadly, this might be a game of musical chairs....when the music stops, I wonder how many people will be standing empty handed.

apunkjunkie I am surprised he is delaying you however since you were a longtime defender of his delays. You don't deserve this wait. I am pulling for you man.

Of course the Phog crew is going to get their work first. They were his greatest fans through all this. Note that all the newest work appears incomplete. He may just be putting stuff together as-is and sending it back.
and what a threat it was.

I never did anything more than ask for status updates, and all I got in return was a bad attitude (and that is the best way I can express it). my reply to that post:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/9013/message/1143654142/

BTW - I sold my interest in the custom CB I had ordered, even knowing that it might actually get done. partially because I am apparently on his 8-ball-list - though as mentioned in that thread, I had asked only for updates to deadlines that he made himself.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:10 AM #96
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The reason they protect him over at PHOG is because his buddies seem to get their work first. I believe some people over there have received more than one project in the last few years. Some other people received their projects within a few months while others have waited years.
You could be more wrong about this but it would be difficult to do. I know of people there still waiting on work just like everyone else. Of course you can choose to believe me or not. I'm sure if you choose not to believe me you will simply brush me off as a fanboy or just someone from the PhOG. I assure you I am only one of those and at 41 I'm definitely not a boy.

EDIT: And pumpdude, how exactly does someone get "dibs" on a gun that's already sold and not even made yet?
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:56 AM #97
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It's not like he didn't warn/threaten to move griefers to the bottom of the list if they didn't stop. Sadly, this might be a game of musical chairs....when the music stops, I wonder how many people will be standing empty handed.

apunkjunkie I am surprised he is delaying you however since you were a longtime defender of his delays. You don't deserve this wait. I am pulling for you man.

Of course the Phog crew is going to get their work first. They were his greatest fans through all this. Note that all the newest work appears incomplete. He may just be putting stuff together as-is and sending it back.
I've defended him for a long time, but there's just too many knocks against him now to keep doing it. I've always been polite in my e-mails to him and I always wish him well. But, when I get an e-mail telling me that he'll have something for me in a few weeks then don't hear from him again (going on 1 1/2 years).

I've moved and when I send him an e-mail about my change of address, I don't even get the two word reply ("Got it!") I tell him I'd be fine with. I'm not asking for an update. I'm not asking for pictures. I'm just asking him to put my new address in the project folder he says he has so some other lucky bastard gets my marker.

I have $800+ invested in this project with cash and gun (paid in full by the way). I've even mentioned in every e-mail since the beginning of the year that he can send it un-anodized to me, because I'm willing to drop an extra $150+ to get it done myself just so I have it back.

I've defended him when he lost his original shop (hell I paid the remaining balance for my project because I knew he was having a hard time financially). I've defended him when he almost cut his finger off. I've defended him when he got sick. I defended him when someone threatened his family. I've defended him when others have *****ed. However, I can only defend him so much without some help from Punisher himself. Trust me, it'd be harder for me to ***** if I received some sort of reply in the past year and a half.

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and what a threat it was.

I never did anything more than ask for status updates, and all I got in return was a bad attitude (and that is the best way I can express it). my reply to that post:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/9013/message/1143654142/

BTW - I sold my interest in the custom CB I had ordered, even knowing that it might actually get done. partially because I am apparently on his 8-ball-list - though as mentioned in that thread, I had asked only for updates to deadlines that he made himself.
Rambo, I apologize. I was a bit younger and more naive back then . I don't blame you for selling your interest in the CB. I know I'm putting myself at risk for being black-balled myself, but right now I don't care. All but my most recent defense of him has been genuine (which was maybe a year ago). Hell, I was even defending him up until recently because I actually thought if I got on his good side that I'd get my stuff back.

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You could be more wrong about this but it would be difficult to do. I know of people there still waiting on work just like everyone else. Of course you can choose to believe me or not. I'm sure if you choose not to believe me you will simply brush me off as a fanboy or just someone from the PhOG. I assure you I am only one of those and at 41 I'm definitely not a boy.

EDIT: And pumpdude, how exactly does someone get "dibs" on a gun that's already sold and not even made yet?
I browse PHOG under a different name and I respect you and what you do. However, how long did it take to finish your project? How long did it take for Rolondo to get Cagematch? How long did it take Bluefish to get his new marker? If I remember correctly, the body on Bluefish's new marker (or one very similar) was made for Punisher to use at SPE 2006....the pictures were on the old PHOG. That would put it a full year from when I sent my project in and when Bluefish still had his old marker.

Lee has his favorites and people he just can't stand. I have corresponded with some people that have recently received their projects and every single one of them went through the State Department of Oregon. That's why I filed a complaint with them.

Sure I haven't been waiting 8+ years like one guy, but just shy of 3 1/2 years and $800+ is just getting to be too much for me. I feel sorry for him, I really do. He got in over his head and suffered for it. He's been served with civil papers, his family threatened, stalked throughout the internet for his hobbies, etc. I don't envy his position, but his attitude towards people who want reasonable things (basic communication, adherence to deadlines, results, etc.) makes matters worse.

I believe I'm going to get my completed project back and when I do, I'll proudly show it off and say exactly where it came from. I won't badmouth Punisher (which if you've noticed, I haven't even done that in this long post), but I won't lie to people about his service. I just hope I can find the same success that others have in getting their incredibly beautiful projects back.
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Old 05-21-2008, 05:30 AM #98
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I browse PHOG under a different name and I respect you and what you do. However, how long did it take to finish your project? How long did it take for Rolondo to get Cagematch? How long did it take Bluefish to get his new marker? If I remember correctly, the body on Bluefish's new marker (or one very similar) was made for Punisher to use at SPE 2006....the pictures were on the old PHOG. That would put it a full year from when I sent my project in and when Bluefish still had his old marker.

Lee has his favorites and people he just can't stand. I have corresponded with some people that have recently received their projects and every single one of them went through the State Department of Oregon. That's why I filed a complaint with them.

Sure I haven't been waiting 8+ years like one guy, but just shy of 3 1/2 years and $800+ is just getting to be too much for me. I feel sorry for him, I really do. He got in over his head and suffered for it. He's been served with civil papers, his family threatened, stalked throughout the internet for his hobbies, etc. I don't envy his position, but his attitude towards people who want reasonable things (basic communication, adherence to deadlines, results, etc.) makes matters worse.

I believe I'm going to get my completed project back and when I do, I'll proudly show it off and say exactly where it came from. I won't badmouth Punisher (which if you've noticed, I haven't even done that in this long post), but I won't lie to people about his service. I just hope I can find the same success that others have in getting their incredibly beautiful projects back.
I know who you are on the PhOG and you know the position of that forum on flaming anyone. The absolute only reason I posted in this thread again is because what I felt was an unwarranted attack on the PhOG yet again. The marker you're wondering about from Rolondo is actually the Silver Hawke and not Cage Match. I can't remember when he commissioned it but it was shortly after Lee brought out the original design. If I had to guess I'd say 3 years or so but I'm not completely sure as I said. Bluefish's marker was not used at SPE06. That was the Executioner which was sold to Snowzone(?) who sold it a few months back. The two markers are unrelated. As for my project, I got an update on it in person at SPE06. I don't believe I got it any quicker because I gave him a few 12 grams at SPE.

What people have to remember is the PhOG and Punisher are completely unrelated. Just because there aren't a half dozen threads flaming him doesn't mean he's being defended or protected. Got a beef with him then leave a factual account in the pheedback section. That's what it's there for! It's been said over and over again. Last month someone put a post up with stuff about a bad deal with WWA. It was moved to the pheedback section where it belongs. The post was factual (there was no name calling etc...) so it wasn't edited or deleted. Is that Mod now protecting Joe Wolf? No, they were simply enforcing the very same rule that is in place for everyone.

EDIT: I've never ever defended Lee and I'm not going to do so ever. He's an adult and can do that on his own as far as I'm concerned. The only person, place or thing I am defending is a forum I call home and the people I know who are being called out for ordering stuff from Punisher.

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Old 05-21-2008, 08:10 AM #99
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Phog has traditionally been a platform where Punisher made abrasive and bitter statements in open forum and they stood un-edited with profanity and flames for all to see. In the same thread if anyone rebuffed, it got deleted after everyone lined up and took shots. I watched it happen at least 3 times. I have heard arguments from Phog staff that there was no special "punisher policy". I guess that is relative to which side of the argument you are on. Other than the Punisher thing, Phog is a great forum.
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:46 AM #100
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re:

moose the problem now and the last two years is punisher lack of contact with any of his customers. he first has his shop blog on his own server that he closed down himself. His new shop blog from last month was due to me and few other people contact the local bbb in OR. there are so many pb boards that would let punisher make a section just for himself or he could have used a free board like network54 like i did just to post updates and or images when he had the time.my self and one other person marker was done awile ago and intill i got the popo involed i got email from punisher that he shipped the marker to the wrong addy. when there was a bill from am with my shipping addy in the box i got back from punisher. I also gave him 4 diffrent email addy for conatct becuase of his spam filters people at one point. if i was lee i would be asking for help to clean out the shop/take emails and return any marker compleated or not to people that are now asking for there work back.
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:15 AM #101
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Phog has traditionally been a platform where Punisher made abrasive and bitter statements in open forum and they stood un-edited with profanity and flames for all to see. In the same thread if anyone rebuffed, it got deleted after everyone lined up and took shots. I watched it happen at least 3 times. I have heard arguments from Phog staff that there was no special "punisher policy". I guess that is relative to which side of the argument you are on. Other than the Punisher thing, Phog is a great forum.
You are right, I won't argue the point that Lee stomped people when the mood struck him. I saw it happen as well and thought he was treated pretty leniently when he got a random hair across his arse. The "policy" about bashing airsmiths came around when Brad faded from existence. Everyone went to the PhOG to bash Brad and the policy started. At the time they claimed Brad was being protected. That wasn't the case. The general thought was that people didn't want the board to turn ugly. When that finally calmed down Punisher faded as well and it started up again.

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moose the problem now and the last two years is punisher lack of contact with any of his customers. he first has his shop blog on his own server that he closed down himself. His new shop blog from last month was due to me and few other people contact the local bbb in OR. there are so many pb boards that would let punisher make a section just for himself or he could have used a free board like network54 like i did just to post updates and or images when he had the time.my self and one other person marker was done awile ago and intill i got the popo involed i got email from punisher that he shipped the marker to the wrong addy. when there was a bill from am with my shipping addy in the box i got back from punisher. I also gave him 4 diffrent email addy for conatct becuase of his spam filters people at one point. if i was lee i would be asking for help to clean out the shop/take emails and return any marker compleated or not to people that are now asking for there work back.
Plush I know what the problem is, the problem is Lee isn't a good business man (to say the least). I had to send him my address twice as well to get the undercocking kit he made for me. When Pun Emailed me asking for it a second time he admitted to crappy file keeping and poor business management. Like I said, I'm not going to defend him. He can certainly fight his own battles as he has a mouth. My one and only issue is people slamming a forum I enjoy greatly. I'm not even a mod/admin/what have you at the PhOG so I shouldn't be the mouth either.

It sucks that it's come to this and there isn't much that can be done to fix it. Hell HaveBlue even got brought into this mess for "selling stolen property" in the form of CB trigger frames. He's probably the nicest and quietest guy you'll ever meet. When s*** hits the fan is smears everywhere and on everyone. Maybe I'm just trying to clean it off a forum I enjoy.

Thanks guys.
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:28 AM #102
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...........

It sucks that it's come to this and there isn't much that can be done to fix it. Hell HaveBlue even got brought into this mess for "selling stolen property" in the form of CB trigger frames. He's probably the nicest and quietest guy you'll ever meet. When s*** hits the fan is smears everywhere and on everyone. Maybe I'm just trying to clean it off a forum I enjoy.

Thanks guys.

Actually I think Dark_Armor's heart was in the right place. The idea at the time was to keep it in discussion. He didn't have any animosity against HB. When HB responded, it made it look like he cared. People who knew him , knew that already but others wondered. I don't think Haveblue is coming out any better than anyone else with the punisher thing. If anything, punisher has probably hurt ASP. A lot of Lee's friends have paid a certain price in the community for being loyal IMHO. Thats kinda sad too.
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:36 AM #103
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Actually I think Dark_Armor's heart was in the right place. The idea at the time was to keep it in discussion. He didn't have any animosity against HB. When HB responded, it made it look like he cared. People who knew him , knew that already but others wondered. I don't think Haveblue is coming out any better than anyone else with the punisher thing. If anything, punisher has probably hurt ASP. A lot of Lee's friends have paid a certain price in the community for being loyal IMHO. Thats kinda sad too.
I definitely agree with you there. There are far too many people that believe in only black and white with no middle ground. "You are either for me or against me" "You are either a fan boy or a whiner" Damn it just gets sooooooooo old when you deal with things like that continually. I really feel for the guys who have work outstanding and I won't condemn them for pursuing the means to see it through. IMHO there are right and wrong ways in pleading your case or swirling up a **** storm.
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Old 05-21-2008, 10:43 AM #104
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I know who you are on the PhOG and you know the position of that forum on flaming anyone. The absolute only reason I posted in this thread again is because what I felt was an unwarranted attack on the PhOG yet again. The marker you're wondering about from Rolondo is actually the Silver Hawke and not Cage Match. I can't remember when he commissioned it but it was shortly after Lee brought out the original design. If I had to guess I'd say 3 years or so but I'm not completely sure as I said. Bluefish's marker was not used at SPE06. That was the Executioner which was sold to Snowzone(?) who sold it a few months back. The two markers are unrelated. As for my project, I got an update on it in person at SPE06. I don't believe I got it any quicker because I gave him a few 12 grams at SPE.

What people have to remember is the PhOG and Punisher are completely unrelated. Just because there aren't a half dozen threads flaming him doesn't mean he's being defended or protected. Got a beef with him then leave a factual account in the pheedback section. That's what it's there for! It's been said over and over again. Last month someone put a post up with stuff about a bad deal with WWA. It was moved to the pheedback section where it belongs. The post was factual (there was no name calling etc...) so it wasn't edited or deleted. Is that Mod now protecting Joe Wolf? No, they were simply enforcing the very same rule that is in place for everyone.

EDIT: I've never ever defended Lee and I'm not going to do so ever. He's an adult and can do that on his own as far as I'm concerned. The only person, place or thing I am defending is a forum I call home and the people I know who are being called out for ordering stuff from Punisher.
I'm sorry if that was a perceived knock on PHOG, but it wasn't. I was merely stating the fact that he has friends that happened to browse that forum frequently. It would be no different than if I used MCB instead of PHOG, since most of the regular posters on PHOG are also on MCB.

You notice, there is no name calling on my part, while I'm not 41 years old like you, I too am an adult.
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:20 AM #105
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When you boil it all down it comes to this and it has been said hundreds of times-

Lee Kinney made his own hell by ignoring his customers and not dealing with them on a per person basis in a timely manner.

All the flame wars, opinions, vendettas that splashed all over the web was simply the frustration of his customers being ignored left with no communication options other than public forums where they knew he was posting. That was the "original sin" that all the other nastiness stemmed from and two wrongs never make a right but silence wasn't getting anywhere either.

I see this as a learning experience for all the new Airsmiths. They saw where Lee failed and why. It wasn't from a lack of skill, creativity or talent. It was his management skills and business judgment. Perhaps that will be the biggest gain from all of this stinking pile of BS.

But all that said, the bed is made and he is lying in it. This isn't over until all the markers are home and it will continue to be talked about until then. He can't even do a weekly update on the wordpress page. The pressure has to be kept on him. It's the ONLY thing besides friendship that seems to motivate him. Again part of his self made hell.
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