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Old 03-05-2007, 06:15 PM #22
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not based on religion, been said before. ^

But probably not because a lot of athiests (sorry for the stereotype, but in my POV and where i'm from its true) have almost zero religious tolerance. If it has anything to do with religion, I do not think it will ever happen in a public school.
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Old 03-05-2007, 06:29 PM #23
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:55 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newber14 View Post
nope. its those atheist people who cry that there daughter or son have to say the word God in the pledge and who are offended when people pray in school. what i dont get is why the 1 person who expresses their opinion about how they dont want their kid saying 2 words in the pledge gets their way (i know it hasnt happened but it might someday). that shouldnt happen. this country was based on religion and all we have done is taken away God from anything in this country.


Excuse me? So you wouldn't be offended if the pledge were

"And to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under Brahma, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

even though you don't believe in a cow being your creator? Gimme a break. If you were being told to say something you didn't believe in like Atheists are, you would be offended too. I honestly do not mind if someone is praying in school. But if I'm forced to do the same...No thanks
Oh and by the way, although religion may have influenced our country's founding (people escaping religious persecution), our government is not based on it. Maybe you didn't know this, but Thomas Jefferson, the third president and the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence did not believe in the common religion of the day. Here's a quote:

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."


Care to respond in a less biased way next time?
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:06 PM #25
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Originally Posted by mulletmadness View Post
Care to respond in a less biased way next time?
You want him to keep his opinion less biased? Why don't you try that in your post and see how well that works...
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:08 PM #26
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Separation of Church and State never had anything to do with omitting religion from government. Instead, it was used as an outline for our governments not to impede upon religion. Not to mention it's not even in the constitution. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", not "Anything involved with politics and government can have nothing to do with religion".

The founding fathers were:
1. White
2. Christian
3. Wealthy
And, every law inside of the constitution reflects such. And whether or not directly stated, supports the three categories above.

That's what the constitution was meant to outline, so please don't try bringing up what our founding fathers "really wanted".

How the constitution is interpreted today may be quite different; that's not my problem. But, how it was originally written, separation of church and state was a completely different thing.


-----------------------------------------------

Whether or not you believe my post to be true doesn't really matter. I have done my research, and if you know anything about the founding fathers you would know my statements to be correct.
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:11 PM #27
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Originally Posted by SmileyPants View Post
Separation of Church and State never had anything to do with omitting religion from government. Instead, it was used as an outline for our governments not to impede upon religion. Not to mention it's not even in the constitution. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", not "Anything involved with politics and government can have nothing to do with religion".

The founding fathers were:
1. White
2. Christian
3. Wealthy
And, every law inside of the constitution reflects such. And whether or not directly stated, supports the three categories above.

That's what the constitution was meant to outline, so please don't try bringing up what our founding fathers "really wanted".

How the constitution is interpreted today may be quite different; that's not my problem. But, how it was originally written, separation of church and state was a completely different thing.


-----------------------------------------------

Whether or not you believe my post to be true doesn't really matter. I have done my research, and if you know anything about the founding fathers you would know my statements to be correct.

QFT. People really need to take a government class or two. I had to take one and it's amazing how/why/what was behind the constitution.
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:21 PM #28
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Our founding fathers were mostly Deist.
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:24 PM #29
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Our founding fathers were mostly Deist.
Truth.
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:27 PM #30
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it resided in the same lesson as evolution in my high school biology class. it might have been a paragraph at the end of the chapter, but it is still mentioned in the class. whether it sticks is up to the student.
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:32 PM #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmileyPants View Post
Separation of Church and State never had anything to do with omitting religion from government. Instead, it was used as an outline for our governments not to impede upon religion. Not to mention it's not even in the constitution. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", not "Anything involved with politics and government can have nothing to do with religion".

The founding fathers were:
1. White
2. Christian
3. Wealthy
And, every law inside of the constitution reflects such. And whether or not directly stated, supports the three categories above.

That's what the constitution was meant to outline, so please don't try bringing up what our founding fathers "really wanted".

How the constitution is interpreted today may be quite different; that's not my problem. But, how it was originally written, separation of church and state was a completely different thing.


-----------------------------------------------

Whether or not you believe my post to be true doesn't really matter. I have done my research, and if you know anything about the founding fathers you would know my statements to be correct.
Yes, the founding fathers were all White. Yes, the founding fathers were all wealthy. However, many were NOT Christian. Your post would be completely right had it not been for that small part. Although no one can tell specifically whether they believed in God or not, many of the founding fathers were not religious men: Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin. In fact, many of the most influential signers were Deists. And as far as I know, Deists are not Christians. Your post was completely correct except for that generalization.
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:58 PM #32
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:19 AM #33
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I hope it's never taught in school. School should focus on scientific theory, otherwise there isn't any method of discerning which "origin beliefs" (I don't consider creationism a theory) you teach and which you don't. If you teach that, why aren't you teaching the Hindu beliefs on the origin of the world? Or the NAtive American belief that the world is on the back of a turtle. Or the Zen Buddhist belief that it's all an illusion anyway.


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Or that the Egyptian God masturbated and created the Egyptian gods
LOL

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Originally Posted by newber14 View Post
nope. its those atheist people who cry that there daughter or son have to say the word God in the pledge and who are offended when people pray in school. what i dont get is why the 1 person who expresses their opinion about how they dont want their kid saying 2 words in the pledge gets their way (i know it hasnt happened but it might someday). that shouldnt happen. this country was based on religion and all we have done is taken away God from anything in this country.
Or some poor christian kid that wasn't allowed to pray at a stupid football game? This goes both ways. Talk about intolerance. See sample pledge below...this one is OK? It's not about hating religions, just fairness. Or tolerance. If you want a government based on your christian faith and not tolerance of all, go find it. Leave mine alone.

Many of the founding fathers were just deists, but they believed in tolerance, freedom of it being your choice. Read the words in the Constitution. Don't try to make this place intolerant, you will get a fight. You sound like a taliban member, just a different religion.

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Originally Posted by Tippmann playa View Post
not based on religion, been said before. ^

But probably not because a lot of athiests (sorry for the stereotype, but in my POV and where i'm from its true) have almost zero religious tolerance. If it has anything to do with religion, I do not think it will ever happen in a public school.
Religion is between you and your God. Period. Keep your super Jesus out of school and I'll keep my alien spacecraft or Creator the cow or snakes or satan out of it also.

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Originally Posted by mulletmadness View Post
Excuse me? So you wouldn't be offended if the pledge were

"And to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under Brahma, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

even though you don't believe in a cow being your creator? Gimme a break. If you were being told to say something you didn't believe in like Atheists are, you would be offended too. I honestly do not mind if someone is praying in school. But if I'm forced to do the same...No thanks
Oh and by the way, although religion may have influenced our country's founding (people escaping religious persecution), our government is not based on it. Maybe you didn't know this, but Thomas Jefferson, the third president and the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence did not believe in the common religion of the day. Here's a quote:

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."


Care to respond in a less biased way next time?


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Originally Posted by graysonp View Post
QFT. People really need to take a government class or two. I had to take one and it's amazing how/why/what was behind the constitution.
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Old 03-06-2007, 12:05 PM #34
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not based on religion, been said before. ^

But probably not because a lot of athiests (sorry for the stereotype, but in my POV and where i'm from its true) have almost zero religious tolerance. If it has anything to do with religion, I do not think it will ever happen in a public school.
What you should consider is that atheists are a minority in this country. A good portion of people believe in some type of god. Of course when you have a great number of people believing in something there will be a greater number pushing their beliefs on others. I'm not saying this all all people but it's simple statistics. Because athiests are such a minority they feel the need to keep what ground they have, such as their belief in the non existance of a deity. I don't think it's their intolerant of others religion as much as they feel overwhemly out numbered and pressured by the majorty.
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Old 03-06-2007, 12:18 PM #35
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What you should consider is that atheists are a minority in this country. A good portion of people believe in some type of god. Of course when you have a great number of people believing in something there will be a greater number pushing their beliefs on others. I'm not saying this all all people but it's simple statistics. Because athiests are such a minority they feel the need to keep what ground they have, such as their belief in the non existance of a deity. I don't think it's their intolerant of others religion as much as they feel overwhemly out numbered and pressured by the majorty.
As I understood it, more and more people are rejecting faith. It has been said in these threads over and over again.

I would view your statement as being on the defensive all the time and from where I stand it seems those of us who do believe have to be on the defensive because of the erosion of theistic morals.

I read somewhere that in the beginning of this country's history, God/religion was in like 90% of the schools' curriculum, by the 1960's that number had dropped to like 6% and in today's society it is too low to measure. Taking a stance from that wouldn't people of faith be on the defense to the screams from the "separation of church state"? Does anyone have that article?
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Old 03-06-2007, 12:26 PM #36
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As I understood it, more and more people are rejecting faith. It has been said in these threads over and over again.

I would view your statement as being on the defensive all the time and from where I stand it seems those of us who do believe have to be on the defensive because of the erosion of theistic morals.

I read somewhere that in the beginning of this country's history, God/religion was in like 90% of the schools' curriculum, by the 1960's that number had dropped to like 6% and in today's society it is too low to measure. Taking a stance from that wouldn't people of faith be on the defense to the screams from the "separation of church state"? Does anyone have that article?
http://www.thearda.com/international...ntry_234_1.asp

84% christian
9.26% non-religious

You're going to try to tell me that the christian religion is worried about the errosion when they clearly have the vast majority? They don't care about seperation of church and state because they have a strong grip on. When was the last time you heard an open atheist or agnostic run for president with a serious bid?

And the decline in the amount of "god" taught in schools can be attributed to the general progression of society. Back in the beginging of this countries history we were much less advanced in the sciences. There was no quantum physics or calculus. In today's society religion takes a backseat to science and that is why there is less god in the school system. Couple that with the general progression of people and their will to see "true facts," and not simply justify the unexplainable with god, and you can easily see why we went from 90% to < 1%

Personally, i think Christianity is on the decline because it is in a self destructive state. Christianity, a religion based on love and acceptance, seems to do a very good job of alienating people it does not see fit. Let's add on all the "immoral" scandals in the church over the last 10 years. No wonder people are straying from relgion, because relgion strayed from it's roots.
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Old 03-06-2007, 12:42 PM #37
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http://www.thearda.com/international...ntry_234_1.asp

84% christian
9.26% non-religious

You're going to try to tell me that the christian religion is worried about the errosion when they clearly have the vast majority? They don't care about seperation of church and state because they have a strong grip on. When was the last time you heard an open atheist or agnostic run for president with a serious bid?

And the decline in the amount of "god" taught in schools can be attributed to the general progression of society. Back in the beginging of this countries history we were much less advanced in the sciences. There was no quantum physics or calculus. In today's society religion takes a backseat to science and that is why there is less god in the school system. Couple that with the general progression of people and their will to see "true facts," and not simply justify the unexplainable with god, and you can easily see why we went from 90% to < 1%

Personally, i think Christianity is on the decline because it is in a self destructive state. Christianity, a religion based on love and acceptance, seems to do a very good job of alienating people it does not see fit. Let's add on all the "immoral" scandals in the church over the last 10 years. No wonder people are straying from relgion, because relgion strayed from it's roots.
I am not going to try and tell you anything. I am simply saying that atheists may be small in numbers, but very vocal.

So maybe you are on the defense quantity wise, but people of faith are on the defense acceptance wise.

Also, how long do you think it'll take for an atheist to become prominent as a true contender for the white house? Plus also consider the fact that those in charge may claim to be whatever in order to gain support, but their personal faith really plays very little, as presidents past have been observed attending other denominational services or accommodating themselves to be "universally " accepted.

I agree that one of the main reasons "christianity" as a religion is being ousted is because of the lack of true leaders and the scandals that have been the norm for many years. The part of "alienating" people has always been part of the faith since people do not want to mold to what is taught, but what they feel should be taught. However this form of "discrimination" is observed daily. People visit certain coffee houses over others, why? Because the coffee is better or sometimes because they are treated better as a customer or because the prices are much more inline to what they feel they should be paying. Christianity is always presented the truth taught from the Bible and left it up to the listener to decide.

I guess, to sum it all up, we see things from different perspectives and we can agree to disagree.
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Old 03-06-2007, 01:12 PM #38
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I don't know, but I hope that English eventually will be...
I agree, I would worry about english being TAUGHT in school before creationism

But honestly this debate will go on forever. I personaly think if evolution is to be taught then so should ALL schools of thought when it come us being "here"

But in the end I didnt go learn me no creationism in skool

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Old 03-06-2007, 01:29 PM #39
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listen they want to teach creationism.... fine, put it in a philosohpy class where it belongs. Don't try to give me that crap about how it's science because it's not. It's an interesting theory when you get into the nitty gritty of it but it is at it's root still nothing more than a theory. So put it in a phil class where it belongs.

There, now were all happy. Creationism isn't being mixed or taught under the name of science which will keep the athiests happy and were teaching creationism in school (along with many other theories) in a phil class so the god guru's can be happy as well!
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Old 03-06-2007, 01:53 PM #40
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But honestly this debate will go on forever. I personaly think if evolution is to be taught then so should ALL schools of thought when it come us being "here"
I have no problem with teaching creationism, but it shouldn't take up more than a paragraph.

I really don't understand what there is to teach, unless you are going to go into the theological aspects of it.
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Old 03-06-2007, 02:06 PM #41
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I would have to disagree with you on that.

Widely followed
- Around 40-45% of the US population believe in Creation
Unexplainable - Show me some viable scientific evidence that explains Creation.
Myth - In short, a story told through tradition, concerning a deity/hero, with (or without) an explanation for something not fully known at that time.


Sorry for offending you, that was not my intent.


Wow, if only it was just 40-45%, try 80-90%.
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Old 03-06-2007, 02:42 PM #42
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Wow, if only it was just 40-45%, try 80-90%.
I should've clarified that I meant strict creation.

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Originally Posted by http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/current/creation/evol-poll.htm
2001 Feb 19-21
Humans developed, with God guiding: 37%
Humans developed, but God had no part in process: 12%
God created humans in present form: 45%
Other/No Opinion: 6%
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