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Old 01-08-2007, 04:04 PM #1
kai83
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07 Borg Issue Discussion updated

I understand there are numerous concerned current and potential MD customers regarding the 07 Borg. This is a clean thread issued to address and discuss these issued, the others will be closed.

Below will only be the current (unresolved) issues with 07 purchases as of NOW.
(old issues are removed as no borg can possibly ship with these problems)

-----------------------------------------------

Issue # 1: Solenoid will not Cycle 33 pbs.

Status: Confirmed and acknowledged by MacDev.

Found Cause: Evidently the solenoids MacDev purchases has a wider spec tolerance than suspected. All 07 markers are currently affected by this and it seem they fastest we can get them to cycles is 20 bps.

Solution: MacDev has promised that ALL customers will receive an upgraded solenoid once they have found a solution/noid to fit the current situation (probably a trade). This will be a cost free fix available to all 07 owners old or new.

Time Frame: TBA. We do not have a solid date with the release of this new solenoid. There is speculation of a Custom noid that will be produced. <Unconfirmed>

--------------------------------------------

Issue #2 Skipped Shots?

Numerous reports such as below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEpaintball13 View Post
Just a few hours I joined the family with an S/T 07 borg, but it has a problem.
It occasionoly skips shot while I'm shooting it and sometimes it stops shooting while I'm shooting, so I have to hold down the trigger to get it started again.
However Others have posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bebert View Post
Just throwing this out there.

My 07 Borg does not show this eye logic problem...



Status: unconfirmed

Found Cause: Not known, some speculate code issue ?

Solution: ?

Time Frame: ?

-------------------------------

These are the only known standing issues as far as I am aware.

The markers are still 100% functional, shoot very well and look and feel greater than any previous model.

I am sure if the skips are (confirmed and) found to be code , revisions will be offered for free, we will wait and hear for a response directly…

Last edited by kai83 : 01-08-2007 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 01-08-2007, 04:18 PM #2
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Old 01-08-2007, 04:38 PM #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klink View Post
i have the slow noid issue, skipped shots issue, and now two new ones to throw in the ring: #1 is 2000psi on a 70ci tank for 2 pods and a hopper. any ideas on what is causing this? the gun is well lubed with hater that was provided in the box, bolt is lubed with triflow, gladiator at 210-220psi, LPR at MANY turns in (set screw is almost 1/2" deep into the reg body from flush). board settings are stock.

#2 is self-ramping, self-induced 3-shot burst. in other words, even tho i have the gun set on semi (board settings stock, remember?) it will ramp for no reason and at times issue 3 shot burts for no reason. i have used multiple brand new duracell 9-volts with the same effect, so no, it's not a battery.

oh, and I have the "old" detents which cause the gun to not register the balls in the breach sometimes.

and it chops.

and it has the problem where it won't shoot for no reason until i hold the trigger down for 1-2 clearing shots. this happens after i reload.

and before anyone accuses me of being an idiot, i owned and used an '06 for the entire '06 nppl season with NO issues, so i know how to maintain/tech these things.
i want my '06 back

will macdev issue a recall? i want my $1100 back even more than the '06

#1 The inline screw should NEVER go in past flush, you are eating into you reg seat when you do so ( you may have damaged the seat causing this pressure problem)

#2 It sounds to me like you do not properly understand the board programming…

#3 Skips and chops seem related to you not writing into obtain new detents…

There is no recall, no need to... there will however, be UPGRADES offered free of cost ( such as the detents were in the past)
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Old 01-08-2007, 04:41 PM #4
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There is no recall on the markers as the issues are being addressed and corrected as they come to the attention of Macdev. You can contact Macdev, PBK, and I believe Kai as well to receive the new detents as those are a free fix as well. Also, try adjusting your trigger and your bounce on the board. My bounce is set to 14 now I believe, quite high if you ask me; I'm waiting patiently for a flash update that will hopefully solve this skipped shot/bounce issue.
And I can tell you why you are chopping, if you're half an inch in on your lpr from flush you're lpr is much much too high and probably the reason for your poor effeciency as well. My gladiator is set to 210-215 and I adjust for velocity through the lpr and I can shoot 280 without the screw being flush, it's about a turn to a half a turn away from flush.
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Old 01-08-2007, 05:11 PM #5
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You can e-mail PBK and get your detents also.. but Kai has some too I believe
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Old 01-08-2007, 05:35 PM #6
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If there is any doubt about programming your board then read your manual, it's in there for a reason. And also, Tag Sportz made the stock 06 Board, Macdev made the 07 Board in house so it's set up completely different as it's more close to a NOX-style set up. All the more reason to consult your manual. And with your LPR cranked in so much now, as Kai has mentioned you could have damaged the seat of the lpr so you may still have a problem even after a break down and cleaning.
It's also important to point out the 07 cyborg has been out for only a month. It's not like the marker has been out six months or more. Macdev is aware of the problems and are resolving them. They have not turned a blind eye to them and they are also paying out of their pocket for these fixes since the detents are a free fix and the new noid is going to be a free repair as well. Complaining and whining about the issues is not going to make them go away. Just accept the fact you have purchased a marker within the first three months of it being released and there are bugs. Even Eclipse is having noid issues with their 07 Ego's, these things happen. But crying over it and saying you want your money back isn't going to do anything, especially since Macdev is working on fixing them and is going to fix them for free for you. They're not being jerks and saying 'give us $80 and we'll send you a new solenoid'. No, they're fixing it for free. Be gracious you have wonderful people like James running Macdev with stellar customer service that isn't jerking you around. And also a wonderful support staff of Kai and Jim from PBK who are helping with these issues as well.
I must say these issues have weeded out who are true followers and who are just riding the coat tails. I have never seen so many people turn around and complain about a marker after they had such high regards for a company and it's product. I personally am waiting patiently for these problems to be resolved instead of saying the 07 Cyborg sucks and I wasted money because I didn't. I bought an 06 Cyborg and was extremely impressed and bought and 07 and was blown out of the water. While the issues shadow the greatness of the marker they are going to be fixed and the marker is going to be better then the 06 in every way if you ask me.
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Last edited by Tabris17 : 01-08-2007 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 01-08-2007, 05:42 PM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klink View Post
with the LPR screw at flush the gun does not cycle. im going to break it down and lube it once again to see if i can fix the problem there.
When you take the lpr cap off of the lpr what is in there? Is there just the spring? or is there also a small round metal spacer thing that sits in the end of the spring so that the adjustment screw has something to push against instead of directly pushing on the spring?

I temporarily lost the small metal thing and realized after I had to turn the adjustment screw in very far to get any pressure reading on the lpr gauge.
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Old 01-08-2007, 09:06 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klink
with the LPR screw at flush the gun does not cycle. im going to break it down and lube it once again to see if i can fix the problem there.
the 07 LPR is different from the 06

it is perfectly normal for your gun to not cycle with the screw at flush

as my screw is at least a thread or two in and sitting at 60psi i think

so yes the LPR screw WILL SIT A LITTLE BIT INTO THE LPR BODY
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Old 01-10-2007, 12:39 AM #9
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efficiency tests without paint are no good

set your regs properly to see better results
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Old 01-10-2007, 12:56 AM #10
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This might be mean but, this makes me glad I didn't sell my 06 for an 07.

I'm also happy with the way MD is handling this
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Old 01-10-2007, 08:48 AM #11
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testing without paint destroys efficiency.
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Old 01-10-2007, 08:49 AM #12
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the lack of paint makes it that a full amount of air is needed to operate....

just like why you get better efficency with sized paint.
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Old 01-10-2007, 09:40 AM #13
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Does someone want to explain the logistics of that statement?

If I go chrono my gun with paint at 280 and I've got my regs set for that, then go and dry fire a bunch of times, why is that less efficient? Why would the gun all of a sudden be using more air when there's no paint in the breech? It just doesn't make any sense. The gun should uses the same amount of LP air to move the ram/bolt, and it should dwell for the same amount of time, letting out the same amount of HP air down the barrel.
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Old 01-10-2007, 09:58 AM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sumorai View Post
Does someone want to explain the logistics of that statement?

If I go chrono my gun with paint at 280 and I've got my regs set for that, then go and dry fire a bunch of times, why is that less efficient? Why would the gun all of a sudden be using more air when there's no paint in the breech? It just doesn't make any sense. The gun should uses the same amount of LP air to move the ram/bolt, and it should dwell for the same amount of time, letting out the same amount of HP air down the barrel.
For the short time that ALL passages are open (dwell) I would imagine the backpush from the paintball has an effect on this
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Old 01-10-2007, 10:03 AM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai83 View Post
For the short time that ALL passages are open (dwell) I would imagine the backpush from the paintball has an effect on this
So, because the air hits the ball and there is resistence, some air doesn't make it out and stays behind the valve? I don't know physics well, but it seems like it would be an extremely minimal amount.

Every time I've dry-fired I've chrono'd with paint first. I tend to see nearly the same efficiency as shooting with paint.

*shrug*
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Old 01-10-2007, 11:05 AM #16
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I just thought of something, well you know how people are not getting the dwell advertised/wanted.... Well the noid could be the reason why. It looks like macdev got a hooked up noid and then the rest sent were totally different. The noid is the factor on what the dwell would be, mainly. If the noid is messed up mabey thats why we are not getting desired dwell.

What you guys think, possible cause?
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Old 01-10-2007, 11:09 AM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007 Phantom View Post
I just thought of something, well you know how people are not getting the dwell advertised/wanted.... Well the noid could be the reason why. It looks like macdev got a hooked up noid and then the rest sent were totally different. The noid is the factor on what the dwell would be, mainly. If the noid is messed up mabey thats why we are not getting desired dwell.

What you guys think, possible cause?
a little logical i guess, but i don't see the dwell being cut in half and keeping nearly the same operating pressures without the internal geometry of the gun changing somehow.
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Old 01-10-2007, 12:36 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sumorai View Post
So, because the air hits the ball and there is resistence, some air doesn't make it out and stays behind the valve? I don't know physics well, but it seems like it would be an extremely minimal amount.

Every time I've dry-fired I've chrono'd with paint first. I tend to see nearly the same efficiency as shooting with paint.

*shrug*
Less air flows through the poppet valve with paint because pressure rapidly builds up behind the ball and reaches equilibrium and effectively stops the air flow sooner than if you just send air out the open pipe. You can just put your hand over the barrel (no paint of course!) to see the same effect.
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:21 PM #19
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Interesting. Thanks!
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:03 AM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sumorai View Post
So, because the air hits the ball and there is resistence, some air doesn't make it out and stays behind the valve? I don't know physics well, but it seems like it would be an extremely minimal amount.

Every time I've dry-fired I've chrono'd with paint first. I tend to see nearly the same efficiency as shooting with paint.

*shrug*
Thats exactly right, although it's not extremely minimal at all. dry firing uses WAY more air than shooting with paint. I can hardly dryfire 1000 shots through my 07, but with paint, i get ~1800

It's because with a properly sized paintball, very little air makes it AROUND the ball, and it all hits the paintball propelling it out of the barrel...when you dryfire there is no resistance so much more air comes out of the valve much faster than if there is a paintball blocking the only hole out of the gun for the HP. same reason it's much louder when you dry fire compared to shooting paint. take an empty paper towel roll, blow through it, take your hand and partially cover the hole and blow through it, you dont run out of breath near as fast. Thats about the best analagy i can come up with

edit: somehow i missed jamie's post up top there, leave it to the super genious to explain the physics
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Old 01-11-2007, 09:07 AM #21
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Can we please try to keep this thread on topic guys? This is an important issue, and I'm sure people don't want to read a bunch of OT when the forum shows this thread has new posts. I know it's harmless, but this thread is special.
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