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Old 01-09-2007, 06:45 PM #64
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I wasn't raised christain really. I always thought Noah's Ark was a fairy tale. In about the 4th grade though, I realized "Holy ****! People actually believe this!".

I'm a pretty smart guy (ignore my typo's). I just can't ignore scientific fact and logic to make myself believe that this actually happened. I still consider myself to be a christian though.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:49 PM #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade v2.0 View Post
I wasn't raised christain really. I always thought Noah's Ark was a fairy tale. In about the 4th grade though, I realized "Holy ****! People actually believe this!".

I'm a pretty smart guy (ignore my typo's). I just can't ignore scientific fact and logic to make myself believe that this actually happened. I still consider myself to be a christian though.
you too, huh?

also, its not scientific "fact" as some of the bible humpers like to point out.

it is a theory, although it is the closest thing we have to fact, ignorant people like to deny it.

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Old 01-09-2007, 07:18 PM #66
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I have two valid questions I want someone who believes this story to answer:
1. Did Noah also bring every type plant in the world on the ark?
2. If Noah brought every insect on the ark, how did they all survive? Some insects such as houseflies and dragonflies don't live for 40 days and 40 nights, not matter how healthly and well fed they are.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:00 PM #67
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..where are the christians when we have questions
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:17 PM #68
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I don't believe in the story of "Noah and the Ark" as literal.

Interesting though, I remember seeing something on the science channel about a theory that when there was a rise in ocean level 3500-4000 odd years ago (I forget how long ago they said, honestly, but they showed proof through changes in the soil, water tables, etc.) and that the story of Noah and the Ark was only the flooding of a large low-lying area that noah occupied that was being flooded (think like the Bering Land Bridge).

I dont know about that validity of that argument, but interesting.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:21 PM #69
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I remember seeing something similar but it was in a musium lower then the major ones, with there idea on noahs ark. It could have been a "world ending" flood for an area noah was at and it might be viewed by him that the "world" was flooded, but instead were some civilization was. Im just stabing in the dark since its improbable that the ocean rose 18 inches over everything and then some how made the icecaps above the tempurature of an ice age.
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Old 01-09-2007, 09:24 PM #70
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I'm currently playing catch up in a response to all the posts, but here is something to keep you busy.

1. How did each (fresh and salt water) get separated into discreetly different types of waters?
2. Would not the water-dwelling animals have to undergo large, anatomical changes?

To continue with #2, you have a major problem with osmoregulation of fishes. Freshwater fish and amphibians have to save salts, and get rid of excess water. They also have urine that is hypotonic to blood. Their blood and body fluids are hypertonic to their environment. Therefore if you dilute the fresh water with salt water (and there is clearly more salt water on earth) , this causes very big problems for natural freshwater-dwelling organisms (virtually all amphibians and freshwater fish). Since this supposedly happened over the course of 40 days and 40 nights, this obviously isn't enough time to "switch" from having blood that is hypertonic to freshwater, to having blood that is hypotonic to salt water (like marine teleost fish).

The only water-dwelling animals, therefore, would have to be elasmobranch sharks, whose body fluids are isotonic to a salt water environment. But even this would be questionable with salt water being diluted with fresh water.

So...why do we even see freshwater fish and amphibians today?
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Old 01-09-2007, 10:00 PM #71
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Dude! god fixed it!...
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Old 01-09-2007, 10:19 PM #72
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RP where do you get off? You are pulling numbers and "facts" out of your *** like theres no tomorrow. Can you provide any evidence outside of "god said so"?
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Old 01-09-2007, 10:28 PM #73
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Wow, you throw out a couple questions and BAM! Idiocy...
First I want to State that the flood story is a story of cruelty, unjust punishment, and destruction that should NOT be taught to children. To try and justify a story that is the equivalent to a Mother drowning her children for stealing, as a good night time story is just crap. But if you butter it up with a rainbow, a dove, and some hip-hop music…It just might slip it’s way into broadway’s rear end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
1. 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Based on measurements given in the Genesis account, most experts agree that the ark had approximately 1,500,000 cubic feet of free space. So we can gasp the size, the ark would be equivalent in volume to 522 standard American railroad stock cars
2. Yes. The ark based on above dimensions would have had an appropriate draft, ton displacement, and center of gravity.
3. 2 of every kind.
4. It says animals. (Certain interpretations hold only birds and mammals could be defiled, so only they were carried aboard the ark.)
5. Possibly between 2300-2500 b.c.
6. Unsatisfying to the unbeliever, but God provided.
7. 100 years.
8. Yes.
9. Ocean, skies, ice caps, look around.
Thanks for the response.
1. seems to be standard.
2. so no chance of tipping over, cracking, hull damage?
3. and….come on you know there is more.
4. haha
5. Possibly.
6. god provided is not an answer…please try again..RP is doing a good job.
9. I’m looking and I need a better answer…read on to find out why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RamboPreacher View Post
My answers based on my studies and beliefs and opinions:
1. 450x75x75, 3 full decks.
2. Yes, it was designed to float, not sail. it may have had a moonpool in the center. there were no large masts to catch wind etc. essentially a large barge. The ark may have had large stones suspended over the sides to keep it a bit more stable in harsh/stormy weather. the 6:1 length to width ratio is commonly used for shipbuilding.
3. 2 of each kind and 7 each of "clean" (food) animals. I do not believe that there were "millions" of species., I believe that there were maybe 35000-50000. Part of the challenge that some have is they think of the ark as a floating zoo. when it was not designed that way, it was a intensive livestock confinement, where animals are raised in the minimum possible space with the maximum amount of labor saving devices employed. It was designed to be temporary captivity for a year.
4. probably, but there is no mention of them specifically, only of 2/7 of kinds of animals.
5. about 4500 years or so ago.
6. brought food for them. I believe the barge was of sufficient size to allow this.
7. about 100 years (yes, I do believe this as actual years).
8. yes, his sons and probably the wifes.
9. it's still here, there is enough water in the polar caps and oceans to cover a smooth earth probably about 8000 feet. I also believe that the large mountains, as we have them today, did not exist until after the Flood.

I personally do not see an issue. I see that it would have been a challenge, but definitely not impossible. Part of the problem is the paradigm that people of 4500 years ago or so were not intelligent enough to complete something like this. I disagree with that paradigm. I don't think they had the "technologies" (tools) that we have today, but that shouldn't, in my opinion, equate intelligence.
1. That seems to be the one thing consistant with flood believers is the dimensions, now if you could all gather and talk about number of animals. 
2. The problem with this is vast. I do agree that people believe it to be more a zoo than what it would more likely have been a family trip to grandma’s where you stuff all you can in one spot. But honestly:
- people will argue that before the flood the atmosphere pressures were greater, that the oxygen levels were higher. This causing people like noah to be 600+ years old, and 12 ft tall. Along with this, the effects would travel to animals as well and if you do the math on that, just in your head, an elephant would then be double its size, along with all other animals. You can’t say the effects last on human and that’s where it stops.
-I’m gonna stick with you here because you’re the one who seems to have done more research or just made it look prettier. 35,000 animals a day, that’s 24 hours in a day, 86,400 secs in a day. Taking the number of animals into the number of seconds in a day gives us 2.47 secs per animal per day to feed them. Now noah had about 6 people along for the ride. So splitting the animals by 6 gives us 5,833.33 animals a person has to feed a day. That’s 14.81 seconds per animal a day. That’s NON STOP for 24 hours. Meaning…once you reach your last animal, you turn around and start all over.
-So 15 seconds per animal, per day. That’s cleaning, feeding, taking care of time. Altough animals can do this on their own in the wild…We now stuck them in a closet to small for them and took on all responsibility. This just cannot work.
3. Wait…Clean animals? FOOD? So animals/human eat plants/nuts/berries…Why do we need clean food animals? Eh?
9. All the other questions I’ve either covered or will cover here…or just wanted a refresher. So thnx. According to you there is enough snow/ice on the artic poles to melt and cover the earth.
“If all of the Antarctic ice melted, sea levels around the world would rise about 61 meters (200 feet),… There is a significant amount of ice covering Greenland, which would add another 7 meters (20 feet) to the oceans if it melted,… At the other end of the world, the North Pole, the ice is not nearly as thick as at the South Pole. The ice floats on the Arctic Ocean. If it melted sea levels would not be affected.”
So the ocean levels would rise 220 feet. If all the ice melted. So where did the water come from? That is now the ice caps on Greenland, and the poles?


Quote:
Originally Posted by RamboPreacher View Post
1. Biblically speaking, God brought the animals to him, he didn't go get them.
2. of some type, probably, but not as much as one might think. the Bible leads us to believe that all animals were vegetarians (including people) prior to the flood.
3. maybe, but probably not, studies have shown that there would be about 12 tons or so per day, and knowing this the cages/areas could be designed so that the excrement could be disposed of a bit more easily.
4. on the ark some feasibility studies say that about 47% of the space would be used for animals, 12% or less for food and about 10% for potable water.
5. God didn't create sinners.
6. I believe they do work out - average of about 2.5 square meters or so for each juvenile animals, based on those studies.
1. So animals had to travel over continents to get to noah…The mammals on Australia had to reach noah by ______________. My point is a kangaroo can’t call priceline.com or swim here. Catch me?
2. Agains then why the need for clean food animals?
3. how so would it be “easy to scoop ****” from 35,000 animals?
6. No he created creatures that sin. IE..devil..humans.
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Old 01-09-2007, 10:29 PM #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
1. 8
2. Based on the ideas presented here max of a couple thousand, many of which being birds.
3. If there were 3,000 then they would each get about 21 min. a week. This also doesn't take into account that the animals could be kept in groups which would optimize work time efficiency.
Well you and RP can duke it out about the numbers, but it seems that RP is a little more educated than you. Not bashing you, but I am going with your “source”.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
7 months and 17 days. When I used to help my grandpa feed his goats it tooks us about 10-15 minutes and he had nearly 70 goats. Want to do the math?
Congrats you have fed one species that all eat the same diet, and are all infront of you. I bet it took a lot to feed a herbivore. Now do it with animals that require certain diets, lighting, climates. Its NOT possible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by graysonp View Post
1. There weren't millions of species back then.
2. He didn't need to take all of them, only the ones that could not survive a flood.
He said "a smooth earth up to 8,000 feet", which would include mountains. Earth is either extremely smooth, or extremely rough depending on what scale you look at it. From a world-wide standpoint, Earth is extremely smooth and almost perfectly round.
SOoooooooooooo….What could survive the 40 days/40 nights other than josh Harnett? I can see some species of ocean dwelling animals, although as I stated before the shock of freshwater/mixing with salt and temp changes could kill a good portion of those. Some birds would feast on the dead animals and human corpses bloated and floating on the tops of the water. Insects and diseases, obviously, due to the amounts of rotting flesh that would surface..
What Animals did noah leave behind? The platypus? He is one ugly mofo.




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Originally Posted by graysonp View Post
You do realize that the mountain didn't grow up from 2 inches a year, right? They're not trees. Most mountains, hills, and canyons resulted from seismic movements over a short period of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by graysonp View Post
That's the beauty of seismic and tectonic movemnet. Mountains can just spring up out of the ground in a short period of time. They don't grow up from a baby mountain seed.
“A mountain is usually produced by the movement of lithospheric plates, either orogenic movement or epeirogenic movement. The compressional forces, isostatic uplift and intrusion of igneous matter forces surface rock upwards, creating a landform higher than the surrounding features. The height of the feature makes it either a hill or, if higher and steeper, a mountain. The absolute heights of features termed mountains and hills vary greatly according to an area's terrain. The major mountains tend to occur in long linear arcs, indicating tectonic plate boundaries and activity. Mountain creation tends to occur in discrete periods, each referred to as an orogeny. The orogeny may last millions of years, and the uplifted region is being eroded away, producing valley-and-peak terrain, even while the uplift is taking place. Two types of mountain are formed depending on how the rock reacts to the tectonic forces – block mountains or fold mountains.”
“The process of orogeny can take tens of millions of years and build mountains from plains or even the ocean floor.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Taconic_orogeny.png
The only case where you would be close to being right is when a volcan would erupt forming a small island, or adding to the mountain it already “inhabits”. But most times when a Volcano actually erupts..It destroys itself = no more mountain.
So inturn, Mountains form OVER LONG PERIODS OF TIME. Not “Poof! Mountain.”
The compressional forces in continental collisions may cause the compressed region to thicken, so the upper surface is forced upwards. In order to balance the weight, much of the compressed rock is forced downwards, producing deep "mountain roots". Mountains therefore form downwards as well as upwards (see isostasy). However, in some continental collisions part of one continent may simply override part of the others, crumpling in the process.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TESlight'emupTES View Post
You still didn't answer my question. You said "yes", but I said "how are you sure they didn't evolve?" However, if that's not enough for you, let's look at your example here. You spoke of the Northwestern American Spotted Owl. Notice the bolded word there? Yes, that's right, American. The Americas didn't exist and hadn't even thought to exist during the time of the Noahic flood. Since that's the only example you cite, I must be right. They must have evolved from other breeds of owls, since "America" clearly didn't exist thousands of years ago.
OH EM GE, and that’s god with a lower case g. Yes, in the middle of the creation story in smaller print there is a asterisk and in the footnotes it says: “On the eight day god needed a place to spread its views all over the world like a drunk uncle on Christmas. So he created the AMERICAS after noahs flood.” They he said “America…**** yah.”



Quote:
Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
Some Christian's don't belive in a world-wide flood.
That is the way of the athiest, just ignore the possibility that there are different viewpoints on the interpretation of scripture that don't contradict science.
Yah…that’s it. Typical Atheists! Damn us and our demanding of SOLID PROOF. I mean dam us and our science! Now if we were just religious we could point to the almighty cop-out and go back to our Doritos and cartoons.
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Old 01-09-2007, 10:31 PM #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citywokchinefoo View Post
RP where do you get off? You are pulling numbers and "facts" out of your *** like theres no tomorrow. Can you provide any evidence outside of "god said so"?
lets not attack RP here out right, this is a debate not a KKK rally...no need to crucify a man.
There are plenty other believers in this story to ask ?'s too.
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Old 01-10-2007, 09:14 AM #77
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Well you and RP can duke it out about the numbers, but it seems that RP is a little more educated than you. Not bashing you, but I am going with your “source”.
My main "source" is the same as his; our secondary "sources" differ.

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Yah…that’s it. Typical Atheists! Damn us and our demanding of SOLID PROOF. I mean dam us and our science! Now if we were just religious we could point to the almighty cop-out and go back to our Doritos and cartoons.
If some don't believe in a global flood then you wouldn't have a lot of issues you addressed. You also quoted me out of context. What I said was referring to the fact that many arguments that have been presented only apply to a global flood.
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Old 01-10-2007, 05:56 PM #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
My main "source" is the same as his; our secondary "sources" differ.


If some don't believe in a global flood then you wouldn't have a lot of issues you addressed. You also quoted me out of context. What I said was referring to the fact that many arguments that have been presented only apply to a global flood.
thats it?
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Old 01-10-2007, 07:01 PM #79
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Good work hero and your science(add dancing test tube beakers now).
You have all good points and i would like to see the rebudle to them.
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Old 01-10-2007, 10:31 PM #80
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I don't think we will see any christans in here ^^
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Old 01-10-2007, 11:15 PM #81
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Thnx guys, I would post alot more in these threads but as you can see I do research...and i can't go at the speed of PBN's posters.
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:10 AM #82
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Quote:
1. seems to be standard.
2. so no chance of tipping over, cracking, hull damage?
3. and….come on you know there is more.
4. haha
5. Possibly.
6. god provided is not an answer…please try again..RP is doing a good job.
9. I’m looking and I need a better answer…read on to find out why.
Revisited:
2. It meets current maritime standards, so it would be as sea worthy as any wooden boat can be.
3. Ok 2 of most, 7 of the clean.
4. Why haha?
6. See RP's answer
9. Here's a little clearer explanation.
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Old 01-11-2007, 03:13 PM #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
Revisited:
2. It meets current maritime standards, so it would be as sea worthy as any wooden boat can be.
3. Ok 2 of most, 7 of the clean.
4. Why haha?
6. See RP's answer
9. Here's a little clearer explanation.
2. Gimme the link to that study, I've seem to have lost the website of the study done on that. Plus what wood noah used...All the stuff used to build the ark with.
3. agains, why would we need 7 clean (food) animals as RP stated. When the bible would have us believe that animals/man were herbivores at that time? Also Please attack my time frame of feeding also...cuz there is alot more than this unanswered here.
4/9. Again Please answer the questions I've stated before and State your opinion of where the water came from, where it went, and how. you can quote articles, but copying and pasting an article is to broad of a ****ty answer. I spent the time to write out everything...If you want i can just answer everything by copying and pasting a hyperlink. But then again I went to College...
6. I've seen RP's answers, and made a rebutle. Your response?
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Old 01-11-2007, 03:25 PM #84
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So noahs ark was just a little flood in a small area in which he didnt have that many animals?
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