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Old 09-05-2001, 11:36 PM #43
crookie10
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i want this can you do it to my led? and do you have a adress or a sight or something i came up with this idea for the bushmaster/impulse and other blowback electros a while ago and finnally someone came out with it for the angel thank you
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Old 09-06-2001, 12:08 AM #44
HuMMaN
 
 
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My guns LPR is set at 87psi, I do not chop paint at all, I have not chopped a ball in a few months since I had my ram adjusted properly I have only pinched a couple.

The presure that the Autococker runs at is about 400psi, the LPR on an Autococker only controls the Ram not the velocity of the ball so to compare this to a Cocker is like comparing Apples to Oranges.

Low pressure no matter what form requires more volume to produce the same output effect, that is why a gun working on low presure requires a barrel with little to no porting to produce a semi-efficiant shot. The ball must be pushed for a longer period of time over a greater distance to reach the same speed as a gun opperating on higher pressure excelerating the ball faster over a shorter distance. Either way the ball leaves at around the same speed.
So with greater volume you need more gas, more gas means less efficiant.

If you want to argue this you can read an article written by Tom Kaye of Airgun Designs.http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/01_barrel_eff.shtml

All that this $100 will give you is an LPR that can be adjusted externaly.

The HuM
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Inlaid cobra on/off switch.
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Old 09-06-2001, 01:06 AM #45
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The link really doesn't have anything to do with this mod.

The mod is about lowering the cycle pressure of the gun. The article is about efficenty. It is also saying that lower pressure hitting the ball requires a longer barrel before porting. It takes longer to hit full velocity. Nothing I didn't already know. The article really is common sense.

It did leave out though that the barrel match has a big effect on efficenty as well. To loose wastes air around the ball. Too tight require greater force, so it also wastes air.

I do like that it talks about the operating pressure not being the pressure that hits the ball. I would be interested in what the pressure in the angel is.

My efficenty changes depending on my paint and barrel. Cobra barrel seems to get slightly better then my boomstick. I plan to measure up the the porting on all my barrel after I get done.

Tom Kaye is one of the few opinions I respect. He actually does research and is an engineer.
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Old 09-06-2001, 01:06 AM #46
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Yes, I valve the looks of my gun. Anyone that has more then a stock black one does. Actually the looks are the main reason to get an angel. I have a cobra LCD with thunderstuck ano. I'm not going to spend that amount of money then make it ugly.
I might get a Free Flow angel though. If the mod won't ugly up my gun, I'm 50/50 getting it. Cobra would have to not void my warrenty.
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Old 09-06-2001, 01:27 AM #47
AdrenaLCD222
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This mod sounds very interesting. But one thing is, effiecency and velocity depend on a bunch of different things. Your air system has something do to with it, the regulator on the gun, and the way it is being distributed through out the gun via the LPR, etc.
If you have ever shot, say, a member of Avalanches guns, you would just about cream your pants. Those guns shoot crazy fast without any flaws what-so-ever! Although you do see them messing with them all the time, and getting them perfect.

So I know this LPR (rock reg) mod will greatly reduce the time on working on your angel's LPR, but is it worth it?
Do you really want to be messing around with your gun that much?
But, on the other hand it will be nice if you are the type of person that doesn't know the first thing about their marker. Makes for easy LPR adjustment. You will also be able to get the LPR right where you want it.
One question that was posed above was, " How will you know what the LPR pressure is?"
I think this is one good question. It's easy to adjust, but how much testing do you need to go through before you actually find what the "perfect" set-up is?

I will say that I am very interested in this mod, just for the fact that nothing such as this has been presented for the angel. I will defanately be awaiting a review of some sort.
The price certainly isn't that bad though, especially for a brand new product from a repuatable company such as Professional Paintball.

Late!
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Old 09-06-2001, 04:05 AM #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by HuMMaN
My guns LPR is set at 87psi, I do not chop paint at all, I have not chopped a ball in a few months since I had my ram adjusted properly I have only pinched a couple.
Man, where can I buy those magic fairies?

Quote:
The presure that the Autococker runs at is about 400psi, the LPR on an Autococker only controls the Ram not the velocity of the ball so to compare this to a Cocker is like comparing Apples to Oranges.
Cockers can run anywhere from 800 psi to 150 or less.

Quote:
Low pressure no matter what form requires more volume to blahblahblah, misinformed ranting cut.
Yes, of course, you are right, LP always = low efficiency. That why people who did this mod years ago with drilling and tapping get 1900+ shots per 68/45 on a LED easily.

Quote:
If you want to argue this you can read an article written by Tom Kaye of Airgun Designs.http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/01_barrel_eff.shtml
Talk about comparing apples to oranges. At least a cocker has a knock open valve like an angel. Mags have dump valves and require a different set of circumstances to make them efficient. That article is well written however it expects the reader to have a certain level of intelligence to interpret it properly. Tom Kaye is saying exactly what I am saying if you read every one of his articles and his posts on his tech forum (and I do).
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Old 09-06-2001, 10:46 AM #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by HuMMaN
My guns LPR is set at 87psi, I do not chop paint at all, I have not chopped a ball in a few months since I had my ram adjusted properly I have only pinched a couple.

The presure that the Autococker runs at is about 400psi, the LPR on an Autococker only controls the Ram not the velocity of the ball so to compare this to a Cocker is like comparing Apples to Oranges.

Low pressure no matter what form requires more volume to produce the same output effect, that is why a gun working on low presure requires a barrel with little to no porting to produce a semi-efficiant shot. The ball must be pushed for a longer period of time over a greater distance to reach the same speed as a gun opperating on higher pressure excelerating the ball faster over a shorter distance. Either way the ball leaves at around the same speed.
So with greater volume you need more gas, more gas means less efficiant.

If you want to argue this you can read an article written by Tom Kaye of Airgun Designs.http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/01_barrel_eff.shtml

All that this $100 will give you is an LPR that can be adjusted externaly.

The HuM
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Old 09-06-2001, 11:19 AM #50
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Hum

This is not a flame, I just want to set something straight.
For the most point in your explanation of what lp requires you are right, but your statement that more gas = less efficiency, is way wrong. Look at what you were talking about that whole paragraph. You are using more gas (volume) but at a lower pressure, so you could have less gas or more gas, it really depends on how well your gun was setup to run before and how well it is setup after.

is 1/3 of your 3000psi 68 ci tank more gas than 1/4 of your 4500psi 68ci? It would be more in terms of ci (22.67 vs 17) but the 17 ci is actually equivalent to 25.5 ci of 3000psi gas. See?

Also, I believe that the reason that WDP got rid of the adjustable LPR was to keep everyone from messing up their guns. Look at cockers? People have TONS of problems with them just because they go messing around with stuff before they really understand the whole gun, and with the Angel I think there are more expensive things to mess up by incorrectly setting your ram that with the cocker.

I think the reasons to get this mod done would be...
1) reduce chopping
2) reduce kick (that would improve single shot to shot consistency)
3) if you are a real tinkerer and want to squeeze every ounce of efficiency out of your gun that you possibly can.

The reasons not to get this mod done....
1) $100 (not that much compared to what you get)
2) More to possibly clean on the front end
3) If you don't know what you are doing you may be able to screw stuff up royally.

It seems to me that the possible positives outweigh the negatives, but that is a personal opinion, and everyone will have their own.

Matt
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Old 09-06-2001, 11:25 AM #51
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Oh yeah

Listen to Skyssx, he knows what he is talking about, or at least he paid attention to the right people. (I tend to think it is the former rather than the latter)
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Old 09-06-2001, 11:46 AM #52
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Someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong but I need to understand how the Angel is functioning to fully understand what this mod can do.

Air routing and pressures
The minireg supplies the Angel with it's air supply at, let's say, 300psi. Once it leaves the minireg this air takes two distinct paths...
1. 300psi air is directly routed (no further regulation) into the valve to propel the ball.
2. 300psi air is routed to the solenoid via the LPR. The LPR further regulates the air down to 87psi (or whatever you have it set at).
3. Adjusting the minireg's pressure directly affects the velocity of the ball AND affects the pressure the LPR outputs (i.e. the LPR pressure increases/decreases when you increase/decrease the minireg's output)

LPR and valve/bolt actuation
The LPR regulated air is fed to the solenoid only. The solenoid is what controls the ram's movement. The ram opens/closes the valve and at the same time moves the bolt forward/backward.

Thoughts
If what I have said is true I don't see what this mod will do other than...
1. Cause less pressure to be exterted on the ram (valve and bolt). Obviously this *could* reduce chopping.
2. Having the LPR externally adjustable will provide the ability to ensure the LPR output pressure is always as low as it can/should be regardless of the minireg's output pressure.
3. Increase gas usage slightly if the new LPR could more effeciently supply the solenoid with air. I have to imagine it would only be slightly though, I can't imagine the solenoid eats a ton of air to begin with.


Again, PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong on any of my points. I still see the potential value of the modification. It would be worthwhile if it only decreased/prevented chopping and provides an externally adjustable LPR (assuming I really need to be adjusting for when I play at 240fps vs 280fps).

Thanks for all the info past and future.
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Old 09-06-2001, 12:58 PM #53
Styles *****ley
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Smile blah blah blah blah

What i'm still worried about is that the stock LPR has overpressure relief. A microrock does not. So, if you are using one of those aftermarket regs that has been known to creep, or your reg seat goes out.......bye bye 14 way?

I assumed that since they integrated overpressure relief in the stock LPR that the SMC solenoid didn't have it and would blow if you put too much pressure to it. I don't know though.

Regardless, if I had an Angel i'd probably get the mod done.

Yes they can do it to LEDs, from what Ethan said at PBC it seems it works better for LEDs too.
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Old 09-06-2001, 01:05 PM #54
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So let me see if I understand this, if people do not subscribe to certain people’s beliefs, theories or interpretations then they are unintelligent and fools.

A properly tuned and maintained Angel does not have shoot down nor does it chop paint unless there is a problem with other variables i.e. bad loader or airsystem. Cleaning the 14 way is nothing new to maintaining an Angel and it is far from a revelation.

Gastric has probable said it the best. All the mod adds is an adjustable LPR and a tuned/cleaned Angel.

My Angels do not chop paint and if I should have a feed problem they tend to pinch the ball instead of chopping the ball.

BTW I sell magic fairies 2 for $100.00
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Old 09-06-2001, 01:19 PM #55
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They "tend" to pinch?

I guess that's a good way to say it since most guns will chop a paintball if they have pinched it over and over again. But out of curiosity, does your gun chop at all? And what mods/tuning have you done to your gun to make it not chop at all? My gun is too new to me for me to know if it is not tuned correctly, but I do know that I have chopped a ball each of the last two times I played, both because of feed problems (intellifeed over the chrono once). But if it chops in a tourney game even once, and the bolt gets stuck, that can mean the difference between losing and winning the game, especially in 5 man, or even 3 man.

Matt
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Old 09-06-2001, 03:21 PM #56
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No, I just listen to the right people and read a lot. Shives, if you are really worried about the micro rock going... you can always get a full sized rock, they have overpressure relief.
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Old 09-06-2001, 05:58 PM #57
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I can buy it and delude myself into thinking that it made a ton of improvement . infact thats what I think I am going to do
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Old 09-06-2001, 06:51 PM #58
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THE STOCK LCD SMC 5-WAY

SMC valves all have a self resetting overpressure relief. check out their website. It has full specs on the 5-way that WDP uses. Its the smallest one.

I forgot the site but I found it by doing a search for SMC electronic solenoids on google.com

-Ethan
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Old 09-06-2001, 07:46 PM #59
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I'll let you all know what I think of it when I get it back. I'm sending my gun in tomorrow to get this mod done.
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Old 09-06-2001, 08:57 PM #60
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Thumbs up

from what i can tell so far it seems to be helping me with efficiancy and with consistancy. it is also quieter not that that is that big deal though. i have found nothing to disprove what ethan is saying thusfar and find it hard to believe that i will. Another plus with the mod is not having the hassel of shims and crap like that. it is less that can go wrong. i would tell every angel owner that has the extra cash to go out and get it because its by far the best mod on the market for the price and a hell of alot more useful than the bonebrake mod.

Quote:
Originally posted by Skyssx
It's the best thing to happen to angels since open faced bolts.
says it all
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Last edited by da-what : 09-06-2001 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 09-06-2001, 10:07 PM #61
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Seems like a very cool mod! i may have to get it sooner or later. but i would like to see some reviews from other owners of this mod before i spend more money on my angel....
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Old 09-06-2001, 11:11 PM #62
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Oh hoorj, now i'm going to have to wait to buy this and the tornado. My HD crapped out and I have to buy a new one. I also need to buy a cd drive since it seems to have crapped out since the last time I had to use it (5 months ago). This sucks, a lot.


(For all you smarty pants... "but sky, how are you posting if your computer is fux0red". I'm posting from work)
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Old 09-06-2001, 11:48 PM #63
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Matt,
I have yet to chop a ball in any of my Angels. I break maybe one ball in every three cases of paint. When I do break a ball it is because either the Diablo double fed or the practice paint was too big for my barrel. I have yet to out shoot my gun and easily hit 13-14 balls a second. I do not have shoot down and my radar is generally within 10 fps with practice paint. With more consistent paint like PMI or Hellfire I am within +/- 3. Internally my guns are completely stock, except for a Dezign bolt in one of them. I run the stock mini regulator without any problems. It is all about proper maintenance and keeping the gun clean. With the new on gun LPR gauge from WDP it is even easier to keep tabs on the LPR.
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