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Old 12-11-2006, 06:46 PM #22
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Originally Posted by Aggressive Bill View Post
Sorry Razzy, but Satan has existed longer than the Catholic church has. He's found in the OT which comes way before the Catholic church.
I realize that the idea of Satan has existed for long before the Catholic church came into power in Europe, but I'm saying that the popular idea of Satan as an all-evil, all-pervasive, being of destruction and of hell as being a physical place where sinners are sent to be tortured for all eternity came about as a creation of the Catholic church to keep European serfs in check.
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Old 12-11-2006, 06:46 PM #23
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Originally Posted by GoldEagle View Post
But if "God" is all knowing and all powerful, how could "Satan" overthrow him? "God" could see in to the future, and prevent "Satan" from ever taking people into "Hell" and away from "God"

It really helps when you know the Christian God is a bunch of BS; the angle is a lot easier to understand.
hence why he failed
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Old 12-11-2006, 06:47 PM #24
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hence why he failed
Then why does it say in Revelation that the "Devil" will rise up and fool the people? Couldn't "God" just stop this immediately and prevent it from happening?
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Old 12-11-2006, 08:46 PM #25
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it wasnt so much the jealousy in and of itself, but the fact that he tried to exalt himself higher than God. he attempted to overthrow God's throne and made God very angry. his punishment for his failed attempt was eternal damnation in hell and the lake of fire.
do you view martin luthers actions as usurping?
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Old 12-11-2006, 09:09 PM #26
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Motivation.

It's "If you won't believe in God and heaven, you will believe because you are scared of being cast into an eternal lake of fire"

If you've ever read Jonathan Edwards, a lot of people are religious for that sole reason. Not because they want to heaven, because they don't want to go to hell. Edwards was a Puritan minister who made this threat very real, and created a new wave of Puritans.

Many protestant religions are descended from Puritanism, so beliefs trickle down as such.
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Old 12-11-2006, 09:19 PM #27
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Then why does it say in Revelation that the "Devil" will rise up and fool the people? Couldn't "God" just stop this immediately and prevent it from happening?
that would intervene in our freewill and choice.
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Old 12-12-2006, 05:20 PM #28
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that would intervene in our freewill and choice.
How would stopping "Satan" intervene with our free will?
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Old 12-12-2006, 05:34 PM #29
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Originally Posted by Razzy View Post
I realize that the idea of Satan has existed for long before the Catholic church came into power in Europe, but I'm saying that the popular idea of Satan as an all-evil, all-pervasive, being of destruction and of hell as being a physical place where sinners are sent to be tortured for all eternity came about as a creation of the Catholic church to keep European serfs in check.
I know that the Catholic church did do some stupid stuff way back in the day, I disagree with what you said a lil bit. I know the Catholic church tried to control a lot. They were screwed up big time. However, the usage of the devil doesn't pervert what the devil is all about. I know a lot of people don't believe in the bible, but this is where we get a lot of our info on Satan. He is spoken of as what you mentioned. Some of this is in the OT and some in the NT. The Catholic church had power, but not enough to totally distort all the written records of the bible to where what we read now is been Catholicised to fit their control, ya know?
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Old 12-12-2006, 07:37 PM #30
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Originally Posted by Aggressive Bill View Post
I know that the Catholic church did do some stupid stuff way back in the day, I disagree with what you said a lil bit. I know the Catholic church tried to control a lot. They were screwed up big time. However, the usage of the devil doesn't pervert what the devil is all about. I know a lot of people don't believe in the bible, but this is where we get a lot of our info on Satan. He is spoken of as what you mentioned. Some of this is in the OT and some in the NT. The Catholic church had power, but not enough to totally distort all the written records of the bible to where what we read now is been Catholicised to fit their control, ya know?
I wouldn't refer to the Church as the Catholic Church until after the Protestant Reformation. Everything the Catholic Church did until then was done as the Church. There were no Protestants.
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Old 12-12-2006, 07:56 PM #31
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The Devil was originally an Angel, but was jealous of God and tried to overthrow God. The Devil failed and is considered a "fallen angel".
qft. And nothing is perfect.
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Old 12-12-2006, 08:28 PM #32
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Im gonna get flamed, but...

IMO of course, the devil was created to prevent common people from doing evil things. He is just a figure with a sole purpose to strike fear into people who dont know any better.
He is what kept the poor from killing the rich.

Last edited by MiniMe-PeoN : 12-12-2006 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 12-12-2006, 08:45 PM #33
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(IMO) The Devil & Hell were created to scare people into becoming/being Christians and therefore, going to church and giving the church their hard earned $.
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Old 12-12-2006, 08:45 PM #34
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How would stopping "Satan" intervene with our free will?
ther eis much theology and eschatology involved. Essentially God gave the earth to mankind, and we subsequently turned it over to satan, and will need to take it back.
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Old 12-12-2006, 08:47 PM #35
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Im just thinking if God was so powerful, why did he create the devil in the first place? Also, if there indeed is a God, then why are we stuck on earth?Why don't we go directly to heaven/hell?
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Old 12-12-2006, 08:51 PM #36
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Im just thinking if God was so powerful, why did he create the devil in the first place? Also, if there indeed is a God, then why are we stuck on earth?Why don't we go directly to heaven/hell?
The Christian God didn't create the devil. He created an angel with freewill and that angel chose to be prideful and disobedient and became the devil.
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Old 12-12-2006, 08:57 PM #37
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Did Martin Luther usurp?
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Old 12-15-2006, 09:11 PM #38
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God didnt create Satan he was the most beautiful angel with the most beautiful voice when he noticed that he was all that and powerful just like God he took 1/4ths (i think or it was 1/3) of the angels with him and so thats how satan was created
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Old 12-15-2006, 09:21 PM #39
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IMO

the devil was created to fear people into believing
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Old 12-15-2006, 09:27 PM #40
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Originally Posted by x420psykoticx View Post
The Devil was originally an Angel, but was jealous of God and tried to overthrow God. The Devil failed and is considered a "fallen angel".
In my opinion thats 100% true.

According to some theological scholars though lucifer or the devil was gods favorite angel and he sent him to rule over the netherworld and punish sinners. but I believe he was a complete bastard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aggressive bill
Sorry Razzy, but Satan has existed longer than the Catholic church has. He's found in the OT which comes way before the Catholic church.
The catholic church didn't start christianity it was around before that and actually the belief in satan came from jewish beliefs and then into christian beliefs also after christianaty formed out of judaism after the death of Christ.
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Old 12-16-2006, 12:13 AM #41
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hell is the place created for people unworthy of paradise, also known as heaven. the devil is the one who tempts these people to sin so they can go to hell. God created hell because there is no perfect, otherwise there would only be heaven.

the first sin was when adam and eve ate the apple, after temptation from the devil in a snakes form. we all came from adam and eve, so we all have a little sinner inside us.

to me, fate is fate, and whatever happens, happens. the question of what will happen to me isnt as important as my question, the beginning.

so, God made the earth and everything, the whole 7 days thing, but what about God himself? did someone make him, or did he just appear
honestly, thats all i really care about, even though ill find out when i die, or during the second coming, or never
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Old 12-16-2006, 07:59 AM #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyrotechnics View Post
hell is the place created for people unworthy of paradise, also known as heaven. the devil is the one who tempts these people to sin so they can go to hell. God created hell because there is no perfect, otherwise there would only be heaven.

the first sin was when adam and eve ate the apple, after temptation from the devil in a snakes form. we all came from adam and eve, so we all have a little sinner inside us.

to me, fate is fate, and whatever happens, happens. the question of what will happen to me isnt as important as my question, the beginning.

so, God made the earth and everything, the whole 7 days thing, but what about God himself? did someone make him, or did he just appear
honestly, thats all i really care about, even though ill find out when i die, or during the second coming, or never
why would it neccessarily be revealed to yoy then?
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