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Old 12-09-2006, 03:18 PM #22
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Originally Posted by Hero View Post
So The complete lacking of evidence of Creationism/ID's Creator or the "up til now" point is supremely outweighed by the holes in evolution?
SO because Evolution has yet to press down an exact Proof to the creation of the universe, Creation wins?
No, but if it hasn't been proven, don't you think ID is worth an honorable mention?

Personally, I don't - not in science class. Honestly, it's not important for a High School kid to learn evolution, and if they disagree, they should at least say emphasize what a theory is, and that there are other theories to our origin, but evolution is the most widely accepted one by biologists.
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Old 12-09-2006, 03:23 PM #23
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Originally Posted by MVPaintballer View Post
No, but if it hasn't been proven, don't you think ID is worth an honorable mention?

Personally, I don't - not in science class. Honestly, it's not important for a High School kid to learn evolution, and if they disagree, they should at least say emphasize what a theory is, and that there are other theories to our origin, but evolution is the most widely accepted one by biologists.
Evolution Belongs in Science Classes.
Creation/ID does not belong in anything but religious classes.

ID to me isn't worth crap. If it hasn't been proven, science will not jump to an automatic cop-out, so I refuse to say that the holes in evolution makes ID worth anything. I believe this because ID has more holes in it than evolution ever will, False claims also knock their rep down.

Evolution is accepted by biologists, because it has scientific backing...SOME PROOF...Whereas ID does not.
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Old 12-09-2006, 03:26 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero View Post
Evolution Belongs in Science Classes.
Creation/ID does not belong in anything but religious classes.

ID to me isn't worth crap. If it hasn't been proven, science will not jump to an automatic cop-out, so I refuse to say that the holes in evolution makes ID worth anything. I believe this because ID has more holes in it than evolution ever will, False claims also knock their rep down.

Evolution is accepted by biologists, because it has scientific backing...SOME PROOF...Whereas ID does not.
There is no such thing as "some" proof. You prove it, or you don't. There is evidence of it, but not proof, and it will never be proven.
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Old 12-09-2006, 03:27 PM #25
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Originally Posted by Hero View Post
Evolution Belongs in Science Classes.
Creation/ID does not belong in anything but religious classes.

ID to me isn't worth crap. If it doesn't have evidence for something, science will not jump to an automatic cop-out, so I refuse to say that the holes in evolution makes ID worth anything. I believe this because ID has more holes in it than evolution ever will, False claims also knock their rep down.

Evolution is accepted by biologists, because it has scientific backing...SOME EVIDENCE...Whereas ID does not.
Happy?
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Old 12-09-2006, 03:29 PM #26
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So the Evidence Supporting ID?
I just don't see anything. There is no Scientific evidence that Supports ID being allowed in science classes.
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Old 12-09-2006, 03:33 PM #27
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No, there isn't any scientific evidence other than the scientific evidence for evolution.

There isn't any scientific evidence for the self-replicating ribo-organisms, and evidence of endosymbiosis is also extremely weak. There is as much evidence that we came from some nothing as there is if we came from God.
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Old 12-09-2006, 03:37 PM #28
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Originally Posted by MVPaintballer View Post
No, there isn't any scientific evidence other than the scientific evidence for evolution.

There isn't any scientific evidence for the self-replicating ribo-organisms, and evidence of endosymbiosis is also extremely weak. There is as much evidence that we came from some nothing as there is if we came from God.
Ok...So ID/Creation has no science backing? Therefore not science class worthy?
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Old 12-09-2006, 03:59 PM #29
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Originally Posted by Hero View Post
Ok...So ID/Creation has no science backing? Therefore not science class worthy?
You could use them to emphasize that evolution is not a 100 % certain thing or as emphasis on what a theory vs. hypothesis is. One question how come MVP and I say almost the same thing regarding faith and you called my POV idiotic while actually taking the time to argue against his ?
Another thing I am an atheist and DO believe in evolution I just happen to believe that both sides deserve an equal oppurtunity at expressing themselves even if the facts are piggy backing on evolutions flaws.
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Old 12-09-2006, 04:08 PM #30
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Originally Posted by Rojo75 View Post
You could use them to emphasize that evolution is not a 100 % certain thing or as emphasis on what a theory vs. hypothesis is. One question how come MVP and I say almost the same thing regarding faith and you called my POV idiotic while actually taking the time to argue against his ?
Another thing I am an atheist and DO believe in evolution I just happen to believe that both sides deserve an equal oppurtunity at expressing themselves even if the facts are piggy backing on evolutions flaws.
The reason i said yours was idiotic was I wanted this thread to be a scientific look into ID/Creationism and your post was the first step away from that...Leading my thread away from topic. I apologize for any harsh words i said that offended you, because obviously a thread like this can not work on PBN because relgious beliefs cannot be proven scientifically, or so it would appear.

Both sides most certainly deserce a equal chances, but ID wants to be a science...Therefore I created a thread hoping for someone with a science background that could support ID/Creationism, but only found MVP.
And I don't mean any negative towards MVP, just obviously he didn't come here to argue For ID scientifically as my thread stated
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Old 12-09-2006, 04:11 PM #31
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Originally Posted by Rojo75 View Post
Just so you know theres no scientific proof that life started spontaneousley. So technically niether can win without faith.

Evolution-- Faith that life was started by a 1/1,000,000,000,......... chance
ID/Creationism- Faith in an omnipontent being .
But is the chance really that small? Think about it. For 1.5 billion years, life had a chance to start over a few billion square miles.

I find it odd when people always say "Consider the chances of that happening". Well, one must also consider the circumstances of it to happen and what was available...which was "everything".
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Old 12-09-2006, 04:20 PM #32
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Originally Posted by Wenuliveudie View Post
But is the chance really that small? Think about it. For 1.5 billion years, life had a chance to start over a few billion square miles.

I find it odd when people always say "Consider the chances of that happening". Well, one must also consider the circumstances of it to happen and what was available...which was "everything".
Good Point.
If its such chance, then whats the chance that a "god" came along and decided to make the universe? What was she doing before that? Golf maybe..
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Old 12-09-2006, 04:23 PM #33
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Creationism/ID have no place in Scientific debate.
Science is about testable hypothesis based on observable (Or logically argued claims based on existing observable evidence/natural laws, etc.).

ID/creationism is nothing but a "What if?" proposition.
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Old 12-09-2006, 04:30 PM #34
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Originally Posted by morca007 View Post
Creationism/ID have no place in Scientific debate.
Science is about testable hypothesis based on observable (Or logically argued claims based on existing observable evidence/natural laws, etc.).

ID/creationism is nothing but a "What if?" proposition.
My beliefs as well...But I had hoped for someone who believes oppositte of this to spark a GOOD debate. I think no one is willing...
Good Religious debate is healthy for anyone. Right or wrong...People reading Learn alot.
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Old 12-09-2006, 05:06 PM #35
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Originally Posted by Wenuliveudie View Post
But is the chance really that small? Think about it. For 1.5 billion years, life had a chance to start over a few billion square miles.

I find it odd when people always say "Consider the chances of that happening". Well, one must also consider the circumstances of it to happen and what was available...which was "everything".
Exactly. Miller-Urey ( I don't know if that's spelled right) showed that it is indeed very possible for smaller building blocks of life to be formed out of elements and conditions that are evident in geological formations dating back to this time.

Take an ocean full of nitrogen, carbon, etc. Toss it around violently in an extremely chaotic and brutal manner while subjecting it massive electricity storms for a billion years, and it's only a matter of time before the right combination of elements, energy and chemical reations are met to make a molecule that can start it's own chemical reactions... A few hundreds of millions of times this chemical reaction is done, and many many times out of that the reaction doesn't go EXACTLY as planned. One of those millions of times the reaction isn't perfect, it actually causes a reaction that makes carrying out the reactions it's now carrying out more successful. Call it the genetic lottery if you will... Over a a few million to maybe a billion years all these chemical reactions are going off, and by chance tiny alterations from maybe other chemicals that happened to contact it at the right time, or from literally millions of other scenarios caused the reaction to shift in one of these, which remember is one of billions of others going on around it, and that one alteration caused that one reaction to create another molecule that is able to recreate the reactions that created it.
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Old 12-09-2006, 05:37 PM #36
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Its easer to believe that someone made all this, than nothing created itself and evolved. Science is the theory of disproving, theirfore, sciece is on a quest to disprove evolution. Remember, they did think the world was once flat.
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Old 12-09-2006, 06:11 PM #37
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Its easer to believe that someone made all this, than nothing created itself and evolved. Science is the theory of disproving, theirfore, sciece is on a quest to disprove evolution. Remember, they did think the world was once flat.
OMG you did not just say that....
Take a look into the bible...The bible states the earth as having an Edge, and Four Corners....

Secondly, Bishop of Gabala, Diodorus of Tarsus, Lactantius, John Chrysostom, and Saint Cyril of Jerusalem all had ideas of A flat style earth. You know what they based their ideas upon? Scripture.
Science is not a quest to disprove evolution...Science, unlike religion, is on a quest to better understand where we live and what makes it tick.
So as our technology evolves and grows, science will continually test itself to make sure what is down is right. Without this the world would be at a loss...
Science does what some religions should do...Grow and test themselves.
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Old 12-09-2006, 06:19 PM #38
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OMG you did not just say that....
Take a look into the bible...The bible states the earth as having an Edge, and Four Corners....
Verse?


Isaiah 40:22 - "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth."

Man didn't uncover this fact for another 2,400 years.


Also the word "Bible" is capitalized. Now that's not a theory!
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Old 12-09-2006, 07:08 PM #39
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Originally Posted by pimpinsaylor View Post
Its easer to believe that someone made all this, than nothing created itself and evolved. Science is the theory of disproving, theirfore, sciece is on a quest to disprove evolution. Remember, they did think the world was once flat.

It's easier to believe... Now that's an arguement I need to use more often!
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Old 12-09-2006, 07:47 PM #40
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Originally Posted by TheSpy11 View Post
Isaiah 40:22 - "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth."
Fact: The Catholic church actively tried to suppress findings that the earth orbited the sun, because it conflicted with what the church said.

Also, circle =/= Sphere
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Old 12-09-2006, 09:00 PM #41
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Originally Posted by TheSpy11 View Post
Verse?


Isaiah 40:22 - "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth."

Man didn't uncover this fact for another 2,400 years.


Also the word "Bible" is capitalized. Now that's not a theory!
Circles are two dimensional. That means circles are flat. While circles may not have corners, they do have edges.
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Old 12-09-2006, 09:27 PM #42
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Exactly. Miller-Urey ( I don't know if that's spelled right) showed that it is indeed very possible for smaller building blocks of life to be formed out of elements and conditions that are evident in geological formations dating back to this time.

Take an ocean full of nitrogen, carbon, etc. Toss it around violently in an extremely chaotic and brutal manner while subjecting it massive electricity storms for a billion years, and it's only a matter of time before the right combination of elements, energy and chemical reations are met to make a molecule that can start it's own chemical reactions... A few hundreds of millions of times this chemical reaction is done, and many many times out of that the reaction doesn't go EXACTLY as planned. One of those millions of times the reaction isn't perfect, it actually causes a reaction that makes carrying out the reactions it's now carrying out more successful. Call it the genetic lottery if you will... Over a a few million to maybe a billion years all these chemical reactions are going off, and by chance tiny alterations from maybe other chemicals that happened to contact it at the right time, or from literally millions of other scenarios caused the reaction to shift in one of these, which remember is one of billions of others going on around it, and that one alteration caused that one reaction to create another molecule that is able to recreate the reactions that created it.
In the results of the Miller-Urey experiment, they found that 10-15% of the molecules contained amino acids. Amino acids are an essential part of cells, but you can't make life out of them.
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