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Old 12-08-2006, 06:46 PM #22
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But now we're talking about the Old Testament vs. the New Testament. Once Jesus came to this earth, a lot of things change. Jews, Gentiles the whole works is allowed into heaven through Christ.

Disclaimer: not a very devote scholar of the bible, but from what I have read and understand, when Adam and Eve sinned, they introduced sin into the world. But does than mean that every human born after this is inherently evil? Indeed sin now exists in the world, but sin is going against the will of God. How does a child, a baby understand what rules to follow if they have yet to make their own choices of right and wrong?

I think that people are inherently evil means that as they grow up, they understand what God wants (conscience), and naturally they do not want to follow some of those rules, which is sinful. The will of God isn't always going to be followed by man, thus the inherently evil part. We are not perfect, that ended as soon as Adam and Eve introduced sin in the world. So I think that humans are inherently evil because it's stated in Romans 3:23, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." No matter how good a life we lead, we will all sin at one point or another, and that is why it is believed that man is born evil. Which is true to some degree, but as a child or a baby with not ability to choose from right or wrong, I don't think born evil, we just are.
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:49 PM #23
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I have a few questions if you don't mind answering them to the best of your knowledge.

To start off, I don't label myself as anything, I'm not Christian, I'm not atheist, and for some odd reason I don't like labeling myself as an agnostic because of some definitions. I'm searching for the answer with an open mind, and if it turns out to be that there is a God, i'll accept it with open arms/heart.

Now for my question, there seems to be so many loopholes, and so many different situations that accordingly are handled by God on a situation to situation basis, and they've been brought up in past threads in small talk by me. If God doesn't speak directly to us, which I don't believe he has for me yet, how does he expect someone with logic to fully believe in his teachings, especially when it comes from a book that has been translated and re-written over the time period of two thousand years?

There was a metaphor I used before, if a village is somehow formed by two children before they were taught of Christianity and the village is formed into a group of 15 people who have no concept of it, how are they treated when they die with no concept of God or Christianity?

Excuse the long question and forgive me if this isn't the right place to ask these questions.
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:51 PM #24
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Yeah, I just think that it logically doesn't make any sense, how we're created as sinful beings, then thrown into a pit of fire for being so.
were arent created sinful, god gave us freewill and you make that choice to sin, although it is impossible not to. ALso if you repent and try to turn away from sin you shall be forgiven
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:53 PM #25
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But now we're talking about the Old Testament vs. the New Testament. Once Jesus came to this earth, a lot of things change. Jews, Gentiles the whole works is allowed into heaven through Christ.
Read Romans 4:1-3. I posted it above.

Quote:
Disclaimer: not a very devote scholar of the bible, but from what I have read and understand, when Adam and Eve sinned, they introduced sin into the world. But does than mean that every human born after this is inherently evil? Indeed sin now exists in the world, but sin is going against the will of God. How does a child, a baby understand what rules to follow if they have yet to make their own choices of right and wrong?
Romans 2:14,15
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)


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I don't think born evil, we just are.
We are evil but we're not born that way? I'm not clear on that
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:01 PM #26
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I do not believe that as a baby or a child, that humans can make the conscious choice to disobey God, thus that's the born part. Humans are going to sin, that's a given along with death and taxes. But if a baby were to die, do you think they'll go to heaven or hell? I believes that since we are NOT born evil, a baby will go to heaven since we already know the will of God, but do not have the capacity to make the choice to disobey him. Now if a teenager/adult were to die, without accepting Jesus as the Lord God and Savior, they will go to Hell because they have sinned. It's a little hard to put in words, but as we grow up, we see what God wants, and we see stuff we want that goes against his word. We will ALWAYS choose ourselves over God at some point.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:02 PM #27
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how does he expect someone with logic to fully believe in his teachings, especially when it comes from a book that has been translated and re-written over the time period of two thousand years?
It has never been re-written and it has only been translated from the original languages to English and there are tons of lexicons available so you can look up every word in the original language. The Bible is by far the most accurate and reliable historical document we have. You can be sure that what we have is what was written.


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There was a metaphor I used before, if a village is somehow formed by two children before they were taught of Christianity and the village is formed into a group of 15 people who have no concept of it, how are they treated when they die with no concept of God or Christianity?
People go to hell because of their sin, not because they never heard of Jesus.
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Originally Posted by Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
If people recognize that there is a God who created the universe and seeks Him, either a missionary will be sent or maybe even God or an Angel will appear to the person in a dream or vision but that is certainly not 'normative' as they say. The Bible's pretty clear that those who seek God will find Him and Creation is, as a certain guy would say, God's big cosmic 'duh' to tell us that there is a God.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:04 PM #28
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I do not believe that as a baby or a child, that humans can make the conscious choice to disobey God, thus that's the born part. Humans are going to sin, that's a given along with death and taxes. But if a baby were to die, do you think they'll go to heaven or hell? I believes that since we are NOT born evil, a baby will go to heaven since we already know the will of God, but do not have the capacity to make the choice to disobey him. Now if a teenager/adult were to die, without accepting Jesus as the Lord God and Savior, they will go to Hell because they have sinned. It's a little hard to put in words, but as we grow up, we see what God wants, and we see stuff we want that goes against his word. We will ALWAYS choose ourselves over God at some point.
Ah, ok. I see where you're coming from. Yes we are born evil but God is fair and babies do go to Heaven. King David lost a newborn and said something like "He can't return to me so I will one day go to him" and we know that David went to Heaven.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:15 PM #29
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It was a very good discussion though, and since you're pretty knowledgeable I have a question, my cousins is a free-thinker. He knows God's out there, but he doesn't believe in religion because he believes it a way for people to scare other people into believing what they believe. He believes that religions, especially Christianity prey upon human's fear of the unknown, death. And the discussion above where you have an african tribe who has no idea about God or Jesus because that's not the way they were brought up leads him to believe that there is no such thing as good and evil, that people act accordingly to the beliefs they were brought up with. So I really have no idea how to disprove his theories, maybe you can help me out here.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:23 PM #30
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It was a very good discussion though, and since you're pretty knowledgeable I have a question, my cousins is a free-thinker. He knows God's out there, but he doesn't believe in religion because he believes it a way for people to scare other people into believing what they believe. He believes that religions, especially Christianity prey upon human's fear of the unknown, death. And the discussion above where you have an african tribe who has no idea about God or Jesus because that's not the way they were brought up leads him to believe that there is no such thing as good and evil, that people act accordingly to the beliefs they were brought up with. So I really have no idea how to disprove his theories, maybe you can help me out here.
Appeal to his conscience. Are rape and child abuse wrong? I would hope he says so. Ask him how he would feel if he was mugged, lied to, or raped. Would he say someone did wrong to him or were they just living a different way of life that isn't wrong?

There must be some crime that he feels strongly about and will call wrong.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:25 PM #31
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Appeal to his conscience. Are rape and child abuse wrong? I would hope he says so. Ask him how he would feel if he was mugged, lied to, or raped. Would he say someone did wrong to him or were they just living a different way of life that isn't wrong?

There must be some crime that he feels strongly about and will call wrong.
your a member of christ krew arent you?
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:42 PM #32
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Well that's where things get fuzzy. If a guy rapes a girl, it's illegal here, but what about somewhere else? If you've ever seen Borat where the driving instructors says "Here in American girls choose who they sleep with" and Borat's all like...WHAT? Granted it's just a movie, but some cultures is like that. And murder, old testament had the eye for and eye policy, so some cultures out there, you wrong them they kill you...nothing bad about it. Can you see where I'm coming from?
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:50 PM #33
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your a member of christ krew arent you?
Nope. I've seen the sigs around but I have no idea what CK actually is.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:56 PM #34
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It has never been re-written and it has only been translated from the original languages to English and there are tons of lexicons available so you can look up every word in the original language. The Bible is by far the most accurate and reliable historical document we have. You can be sure that what we have is what was written.




People go to hell because of their sin, not because they never heard of Jesus.


If people recognize that there is a God who created the universe and seeks Him, either a missionary will be sent or maybe even God or an Angel will appear to the person in a dream or vision but that is certainly not 'normative' as they say. The Bible's pretty clear that those who seek God will find Him and Creation is, as a certain guy would say, God's big cosmic 'duh' to tell us that there is a God.
I'm not too sure about that first part, I highly disbelieve that the bible isn't exactly the same thing that was written originally, while I believe it might convey the same basic message, i highly doubt that it's accurate to that point.

I meant that they wouldn't be following any of the teachings, they wouldn't know to ask for forgiveness because they didn't know there was someone to ask it from.
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Old 12-09-2006, 10:54 PM #35
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you make that choice to sin, although it is impossible not to
Then I didn't make a choice then at all... So, I get sent to hell for being created, unless I ask for forgiveness for being imperfect.
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Old 12-09-2006, 11:13 PM #36
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Then I didn't make a choice then at all... So, I get sent to hell for being created, unless I ask for forgiveness for being imperfect.
yes you did, its impossible not to sin because we are not perfect, you did make the choice to sin then
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Old 12-09-2006, 11:15 PM #37
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yes you did, its impossible not to sin because we are not perfect, you did make the choice to sin then
What?! Are you reading what you're typing? If it's impossible not to sin, then I don't make the choice to sin. I'm not saying people don't choose to kill people, steal, etc., but we do not choose to be sinners, so I don't feel like I have to apologize for being how I was created.
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Old 12-09-2006, 11:18 PM #38
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What?! Are you reading what you're typing? If it's impossible not to sin, then I don't make the choice to sin.
sorry long day but you are making the choice to sin, as humans were are imperfect and sin at our own free will
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Old 12-09-2006, 11:18 PM #39
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^ I edited.
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Old 12-09-2006, 11:20 PM #40
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i guess im not really sure what your asking? it is impossible not to sin because we are imperfect, we sin because we are imperfect
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Old 12-09-2006, 11:21 PM #41
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I'm just saying that according to Christianity, we were created as sinners, but then get punished for it. This does not make any sense to me.
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Old 12-09-2006, 11:23 PM #42
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I'm just saying that according to Christianity, we were created as sinners, but then get punished for it. This does not make any sense to me.
created to sin? no, we were created to praise god but he gave us free will, because of free will we are imperfect, because we are imperfect we sin which translates into it is impossible not to sin which is whu we need to repent. Get what im saying?
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