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Old 12-07-2006, 11:00 AM #1
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is baptism required for salvation...

I saw this topic in a couple other threads.
Assuming Christian "religion".

Is baptism required for salvation? and further does baptism require immersion?
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:04 AM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamboPreacher View Post
I saw this topic in a couple other threads.
Assuming Christian "religion".

Is baptism required for salvation? and further does baptism require immersion?
the only thing i'll say about this topic is that the baptism of babies is the most assinine practice i have ever heard of. if they can't understand what's happening, then they obviously can't "accept christ". so the baptism means nothing
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:04 AM #3
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:10 AM #4
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Originally Posted by idriveavw View Post
...is the most assinine practice i have ever heard of...
and one of the reasons this forum won't work. We don't have to agree with someones views and still have respect.

I do believe that baptism is important as a Christian. I do not believe that it is absolutely necessary in order to receive salvation. Further that immersion should be the goal if available, but other methods representing the death burial and resurrection of Christ are acceptable.
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:11 AM #5
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Baptism has nothing with "accpeting" Christ. It has to do with Jesus saying that we should be baptised to "wash" our sins and be seen clean in the Lord's eyes. Baptising a baby is the only way they can be "cleaned" because as you said they can not "accept" the Lord or ask forgiveness.

Needed....No. Look at the theif on the cross. He was not baptised but he was promised Heaven from the mouth of Jesus because he ask forgivness and repented for his sins. A child can not ask forgivness nor repent, but they can be cleasned by baptism.

Immersion - Nope....that is more for show than anything else. In fact....if I were to bless a bucket of water then toss the water off a high rise building in downtown the people that the water hits would be considered baptised (similar to baptising babies)
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:15 AM #6
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baptism, as many have made me understand it to be, is a symbol of one's acceptance of christ, thereby "cleansing" the soul, or what have you.
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:16 AM #7
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spanish conquistadors baptized indinan babies beofre bashing their brains out ot ensure that the child would get into heaven.
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:17 AM #8
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I think the thief on the cross shows that it is not neccessary. Is it important? Absolutely, no question.

Some may say that he didn't have a chance or he didn't know he had to be baptized but are there any other instances where God grants exemptions based on ignorance or inability?

Quote:
Originally Posted by idriveavw
baptism, as many have made me understand it to be, is a symbol of one's acceptance of christ, thereby "cleansing" the soul, or what have you.
So is it just a symbol or does it actually cleanse?
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:29 AM #9
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Just an aside on infant baptism...

Fundamentalists often criticize the Catholic Church’s practice of baptizing infants. According to them, baptism is for adults and older children, because it is to be administered only after one has undergone a "born again" experience—that is, after one has "accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior." At the instant of acceptance, when he is "born again," the adult becomes a Christian, and his salvation is assured forever. Baptism follows, though it has no actual salvific value. In fact, one who dies before being baptized, but after "being saved," goes to heaven anyway.

As Fundamentalists see it, baptism is not a sacrament (in the true sense of the word), but an ordinance. It does not in any way convey the grace it symbolizes; rather, it is merely a public manifestation of the person’s conversion. Since only an adult or older child can be converted, baptism is inappropriate for infants or for children who have not yet reached the age of reason (generally considered to be age seven). Most Fundamentalists say that during the years before they reach the age of reason infants and young children are automatically saved. Only once a person reaches the age of reason does he need to "accept Jesus" in order to reach heaven.

Since the New Testament era, the Catholic Church has always understood baptism differently, teaching that it is a sacrament which accomplishes several things, the first of which is the remission of sin, both original sin and actual sin—only original sin in the case of infants and young children, since they are incapable of actual sin; and both original and actual sin in the case of older persons.

Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39). We also read: "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Although Fundamentalists are the most recent critics of infant baptism, opposition to infant baptism is not a new phenomenon. In the Middle Ages, some groups developed that rejected infant baptism, e.g., the Waldenses and Catharists. Later, the Anabaptists ("re-baptizers") echoed them, claiming that infants are incapable of being baptized validly. But the historic Christian Church has always held that Christ’s law applies to infants as well as adults, for Jesus said that no one can enter heaven unless he has been born again of water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). His words can be taken to apply to anyone capable of belonging to his kingdom. He asserted such even for children: "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:14).

More detail is given in Luke’s account of this event, which reads: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16).

Now Fundamentalists say this event does not apply to young children or infants since it implies the children to which Christ was referring were able to approach him on their own. (Older translations have, "Suffer the little children to come unto me," which seems to suggest they could do so under their own power.) Fundamentalists conclude the passage refers only to children old enough to walk, and, presumably, capable of sinning. But the text in Luke 18:15 says, "Now they were bringing even infants to him" (Greek, Prosepheron de auto kai ta brepha). The Greek word brepha means "infants"—children who are quite unable to approach Christ on their own and who could not possibly make a conscious decision to "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior." And that is precisely the problem. Fundamentalists refuse to permit the baptism of infants and young children, because they are not yet capable of making such a conscious act. But notice what Jesus said: "to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven." The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. He says that they are precisely the kind of people who can come to him and receive the kingdom. So on what basis, Fundamentalists should be asked, can infants and young children be excluded from the sacrament of baptism? If Jesus said "let them come unto me," who are we to say "no," and withhold baptism from them?

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Old 12-07-2006, 11:34 AM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEp8ntballer View Post
spanish conquistadors baptized indinan babies beofre bashing their brains out ot ensure that the child would get into heaven.
interesting tidbit. do you have a reference to cite? what about actually addressing the initial questions posed as the topic of the thread?
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:48 AM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamboPreacher View Post
Is baptism required for salvation? and further does baptism require immersion?
NO and NO is what Im going with.

While both should be something you want they are not required to gain salvation.

p.s. Nice to see you over here RP

later
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:50 AM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleW View Post
...As Fundamentalists see it, baptism is not a sacrament (in the true sense of the word), but an ordinance. It does not in any way convey the grace it symbolizes; rather, it is merely a public manifestation of the person’s conversion...
exactly as I see it (as a fundamentalist, I suppose)
Quote:
...Luke 18:15 says, "Now they were bringing even infants to him" (Greek, Prosepheron de auto kai ta brepha). The Greek word brepha means "infants"—
your koine is great, and unexpected from a RC. kewl. (though "babies" would probably be my interpretation or brepha, but probably not a real difference.

Quote:
...children who are quite unable to approach Christ on their own and who could not possibly make a conscious decision to "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior." And that is precisely the problem. Fundamentalists refuse to permit the baptism of infants and young children, because they are not yet capable of making such a conscious act. But notice what Jesus said: "to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven." The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. He says that they are precisely the kind of people who can come to him and receive the kingdom. So on what basis, Fundamentalists should be asked, can infants and young children be excluded from the sacrament of baptism? If Jesus said "let them come unto me," who are we to say "no," and withhold baptism from them?
several assumptions here the reference that this scripture is used in justifying non-infant baptisms is a stretch. This reference isn't about baptism at all, but in reference to the kingdom of heaven and a possible correlation to salvation. The soteriological implications may be plain or not depending on many other issues.

For me, this is not about the requirement of a decision, but the lack thereof. they are innocent and have no knowledge moralities and so are automatically assumed to be able to be part of that kingdom. when a conscious effort of an understanding and accountability comes to play is when choice and freewill are now entering the picture (assuming an Armenian view).

Jesus said let them (children and babies) come unto Him, he didn't say they need to be baptized first before they could.
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Old 12-07-2006, 12:24 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamboPreacher View Post
I saw this topic in a couple other threads.
Assuming Christian "religion".

Is baptism required for salvation? and further does baptism require immersion?
To save time, I am just going to re-post my answer to this question from my thread what catholics believe.

But to be short, yes I believe baptism is necessary but there are some exceptions to the rule. I do think total immersion is a valid practice of baptism but not a requirement as I also view pouring or sprinkling of water to be just as valid.

Few truths are so clearly taught in the New Testament as the doctrine that in baptism God gives us grace. Again and again the sacred writers tell us that it is in baptism that we are saved, buried with Christ, incorporated into his body, washed of our sins, regenerated, cleansed, and so on (see Acts 2:38, 22:16; Rom. 6:1–4; 1 Cor. 6:11, 12:13; Gal. 3:26–27; Eph. 5:25-27; Col. 2:11–12; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:18–22).

Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257).

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).
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Old 12-07-2006, 12:38 PM #14
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I'm of the opinion that the amount of water, and whether one is sprinkled or immersed, is not important. I simply can't see God telling the man in the desert, "I'm sorry, you didn't use enough water. Your baptism is invalid in my eyes." I think the act is more important than the amount.

As for the timing of when a baptism is conducted, I don't believe it matters. I was baptised as an infant and I accept my baptism as valid. It's what I hold in my heart at the end of my life that I will be judged upon.
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Old 12-07-2006, 01:47 PM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomGhost View Post
Baptism has nothing with "accpeting" Christ. It has to do with Jesus saying that we should be baptised to "wash" our sins and be seen clean in the Lord's eyes. Baptising a baby is the only way they can be "cleaned" because as you said they can not "accept" the Lord or ask forgiveness.

Needed....No. Look at the theif on the cross. He was not baptised but he was promised Heaven from the mouth of Jesus because he ask forgivness and repented for his sins. A child can not ask forgivness nor repent, but they can be cleasned by baptism.

Immersion - Nope....that is more for show than anything else. In fact....if I were to bless a bucket of water then toss the water off a high rise building in downtown the people that the water hits would be considered baptised (similar to baptising babies)
yup, its only a symbol of your commitment to christ, not needed to be saved.
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Old 12-07-2006, 02:31 PM #16
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No - the Baptizm is proving that you are a Christian and you accept God - it's metiphorical - it's just a symbol to the public, but the only true place that needs to be "baptized" is your heart.
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Old 12-07-2006, 02:33 PM #17
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I was born-again and baptized twice so I should be good. The first time I was a small child and the preacher claimed i was too young to understand what i was doing and lead me to the neighbors pool for a dip in the holy water. (which incidently kills bacteria too).
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:54 PM #18
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I feel baptism is not nessary to receive Salvation. But the way it is stated in the Bible I feel it is as a command. I feel I must be as obedence to God as I can. I Know I can never be completly obedent. Baptism is something that is soooo easy i am not sure why so many people refuse to do it. Babies cannot make a desision to be baptised, so while i feel this dose not hurt, Salvation must be a choice. If a dying person accepts the the gift of Salvation with his heart God would not exclude him from His eternal grace.

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Old 12-07-2006, 09:49 PM #19
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baptism is a public showing of your belief in christ, and new born self into the light of God.
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:51 PM #20
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interesting tidbit. do you have a reference to cite? what about actually addressing the initial questions posed as the topic of the thread?
you'd have to be able to read between the lines to know that I did answer his question. The spanish, who at the time were catholic believed baptizm would ensure the children about to be bludgeoned to death would get them into heaven.

the source is from B Russle's Why I Am Not a Christian.
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:53 PM #21
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To me, Baptism is a highly symbolic process. It's a public showing of your faith and as a symbol is a good thing.

But to believe that one who is not baptized cannot get into heaven is simply absurd to me. If God (and I am Christian, just non-denominational) is truly a God of love then he would allow anyone who has lived a good life into his kingdom.
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