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Old 12-06-2006, 06:32 PM #43
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Okay, I'll tell some of my stories then.

I've always been a Christian. I'm one of those people who was born into a Christian household, went to church every Sunday since a young age, and have always assumed that there's a God and that Jesus was "for real"... however, I've been through things in the past few years that were convincing enough for me to be sure there was a God. I, personally, don't have any huge experiences like you see people on TV describing. I wasn't in the desert without water and I didn't come across a truck full of water and cheeseburgers with "Jesus Loves You!" on it. Instead of one huge eye-opening experience that made me insist that God was real, I've just had a series of small "God things" which have all been pretty convincing for me.

First, I'll talk about something I can't really remember, but I've had the lecture on it time and time again. I was definitely born what most people would call "healthy" (21 inches, almost nine pounds). However, after checking me out, they found that I had a serious heart problem and that there was a chance I wouldn't live. Heart problems run in our family, so I wasn't all-too-surprised by this. Heart attack killed my grandmother, and my dad is a diabetic so he'll most likely develop some type of heart problem as he grows older. When my parents learned that something was wrong with my heart, they went to what they knew best - religion. Nightly, they laid hands on me and prayed over me. Dad spoke aloud for hours about how large his plans were for my life and how they "couldn't lose me". After months of prayer, I went to the doctor for a checkup. Just months after I was born with a heart condition, the results came back negative for any problems what-so-ever. Most doctors were baffled by this and had no way to explain it. Today, fifteen years later, I'm a starting center on my football team and enjoy jogging, playing basketball, and working out. It's amazing what I've seen happen in my life, being a baby with heart problems to being a fifteen year old and in prime physical shape.

A few years later, when I was six or seven years old, I ended up getting croup somehow. My dad was planning on going to PromiseKeepers, a Christian mens' event. He had volunteered to drive, so the rest of the guys going were staying at our house. At three A.M. or so, I woke up coughing and eventually ended up becoming hyperventilated. I couldn't talk, shout, or cough any longer, which meant the only way to wake my parents was to rustle one of them while they were asleep. Both of my parents are extremely deep sleepers... I can usually stomp around the house late at night and neither of them wake up. I stood there rustling my mom, attempting to shout, bawling silently. Just as I began losing energy to do anything, my mom's eyes shot open, almost as if she realized immediately what was happening. She pulled an inhaler from her dresser drawer (to this day, we've yet to find that inhaler ever again... we're also not sure where it came from. She was digging through her dresser drawer earlier that night, getting ready to go to bed, and saw no inhaler.) and got me to be able to somewhat breathe again. After that, she got me to take my clothes off and sat me down in a hot shower so that my lungs would open up. I sat in the corner moaning "I'm going to die... I'm going to die... I'm going to die..." (I was quite the drama king when I was younger... heh...), but in the back of my head I heard a calm, quiet voice telling me "You'll be fine. You'll be fine. You're my child. You'll be fine." After I'd sat in the shower and could somewhat breathe again, I got dressed and headed out towards the car, throwing up phlegm and still unable to breathe. I went to the hospital and overnight the croup, the phlegm, and the shortness of breath were all gone. I'd been spared once again.

Things seemed relatively "quiet" the next few years, until middle school came.

In sixth grade, my first year of middle school, I started to hit a rough patch in my life. I began listening to lots of hard rap, started dressing and acting like I didn't care about anything in my life... I was trying to be "cool" and it wasn't working. I screwed up some of my friendships and began a downward spiral.

Then, the summer of my seventh-to-eighth grade year, I was introduced to a whole new area of my church: the youth group. I'd never really gone any time before, just because I had just become old enough to visit in sixth grade, when I honestly didn't care much about anything.

That year, I went on a mission trip to Richwood, West Virginia. I met a man who had counseled drug-abusing teens and practiced demons out of people, a man who was addicted to marijuana and cocaine but turned his life 180º and straightened everything out, and a poor couple with health problems whose floor we replaced. I had many conversations over the week-long period with the man who had been addicted to several hard drugs. He was one of the leaders of our youth. He was telling me things about his life that were starting to show in mine. The music I listened to, the way I acted... he told me I needed to straighten out my life. Every day, I told him "Look. If God wants me to change my life, he'll show me. Until then, I'm running things." Most of the week the conversations went the same way. Then, one of our last nights there, we went to a cemetery for our nightly Bible study. That was hard on many of the people in the group because they'd lost parents, brothers, friends... (my dad was on the trip, and his mother passed away. This is very hard on him. My good friend's mom also passed away. This was especially hard on him and his sister.) it was really moving that night, hearing everyone crying out and just giving everything to God. I went back to the barracks we were staying in thinking, "Wow, maybe God is trying to show me something..." but my worldly possessions meant too much to me. I wasn't ready to give them up yet. That night, in the middle of the night, I woke up from a weird dream, one of those dreams where you say "Huh?" when you think about it. After I was good and awake, I realized I heard something. At first, I thought it was just me thinking things, but it got clearer and clearer until it was like I was having a conversation with someone. Without thinking, I grabbed a pen, flashlight, and a notebook and just began writing. I've always had a talent for poetry, but sitting in front of me was one of the greatest things I'd ever written. I wasn't sure until now where it came from - I've been blessed with the gift of Prophecy.

After that, I was determined to change my life. However, it didn't last long. I wasn't nearly as bad as I was before, but I was still living a ho-hum type of Christian life. I went to church on Sundays, but that was about it. I didn't show it in my day-to-day life.

One night last year, I was in the shower, about ready to go to an event at my church. A man was coming to talk to our youth group about his life and give his testimony. He'd written several raps which were entertaining, since he was a 60-year-old man on the "bulky" side... kind of like Santa. Anyway, all of a sudden, I relived my mission trip experience. I was humming to myself in the shower a random tune when I just began getting words in my head. Words changed to sentences, which changed into stanzas, which changed into an entire new work. Without thinking twice, I ran upstairs... shower still running, shampoo still in my hair, and wrote it all down. There's no way I was the one behind it... there just simply isn't.

Then, just two months ago, I came home from school one day to find my mom crying. She had the phone in her hand, so I wasn't sure what to think... laid off from work? Dad in an accident? I asked what was wrong only to find out a good friend of mine was killed in a car accident driving to the airport from college, coming home to be with his girlfriend on her birthday. At first, it didn't really get to me. I went upstairs and went on with life as normal, but when I went to a prayer service for his family a couple hours later, it really hit me. After that, we all went to his girlfriend's house to be with her. She had a bonfire prepared for her and him to relax that night and roast marshmallows, make s'mores... just have a good time. She thought it was best that we sit around the bonfire and just reflect on his life, because he wouldn't want us to mope around not doing anything. They had little pieces of paper for us to write things we liked or remembered about him. Again, for the third time in three years, a voice began to speak to me. I wrote down what it told me and ended up with another poem. Since I didn't post either of the other two, I'll post this one. It's not that it's an astoundingly profound work of art or that I should win an award for it, but it's just that it all came to me at once, without me even thinking about it or anything. Here it is:

It's eight Friday night and I'm looking at the sky
And I'm trying to talk to God, trying to ask the reason why
How come you're no longer in this place with us
And why is it you're not standing face to face with us
But after all that asking, I remembered one thing
We've gotta go with God's will, no matter how much pain it brings
I don't wanna let you go, but Joe I must
I'll do what I gotta do, in God I trust
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust

Those are the stories I have to tell. I've heard so many more stories from other people that I could talk about for hours... not to mention I could talk about not what God saved me from, but what He's kept me from.
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Old 12-06-2006, 06:32 PM #44
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The fact of evolution came from the fact that we werent just created by some supernatural being.
No, a fundamentalist Christian might tell you that some supernatural being created everything within 7 days some 5,000 years ago. Believing in the existence of some supernatural being could mean believing that some supernatural being converted energy into matter some billions x 10^1000 years ago just to kick things off, therefore "creating evolution."
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Old 12-06-2006, 06:33 PM #45
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Maybe it's not a god that we should worship, but instead an objective hand that doesn't involve itself with the universe anymore.
How is that any different from a random, scientific phenomenon? If you acribe to this sort of "clockmaker theory" (google it if you are unfamiliar, basically the idea that god made the universe and then, once it was running, stopped interfering with it), then there's little difference between the one-time involvement of a God or the one-time involvement of a strange natural (but not supernatural) phenomenon. And if the choice is between those two, the application of Occam's Razor suggests that a god is not the likely answer.

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Well first, something must have created all the matter that makes up the universe, right?

Anyway, what do you mean by why? How do you expect me to answer that? I do not believe that science could create something so perfect, so amazing by just a nano-scale chance of it happening
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1889090

That's what I'm driving at.

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Old 12-06-2006, 06:40 PM #46
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To those who can't fathom a large number of events occuring just the right way to create the earth, look at all of the other planets and cellestial bodies that don't have life. To our knowledge, we are one out of how many without life?

I'm fairly certain that I have faith in a God, but I'm not sure how exactly He works in this world.

Maybe the physical realm is governed by science, and maybe our thoughts, wills, desires, rights and wrongs, moral and mental things are goverened by Him?

We'll never know in our lifetimes, but this discussion will continue and hopefully future generations will find the answer.
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Old 12-06-2006, 06:42 PM #47
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Originally Posted by Wobble my Bobble View Post
To those who can't fathom a large number of events occuring just the right way to create the earth, look at all of the other planets and cellestial bodies that don't have life. To our knowledge, we are one out of how many without life?

I'm fairly certain that I have faith in a God, but I'm not sure how exactly He works in this world.

Maybe the physical realm is governed by science, and maybe our thoughts, wills, desires, rights and wrongs, moral and mental things are goverened by Him?

We'll never know in our lifetimes, but this discussion will continue and hopefully future generations will find the answer.
So you believe that simply because what we can see around us doesn't have life, that means we're special?

$5,000,000 that the nearest planet with intelligent life doesn't believe in Christianity, or any other religion we have.
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Old 12-06-2006, 06:42 PM #48
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That's pretty much it, we know nothing.. all we can do is wait for science to do its stuff, but until then, we have no answer to any of these questions.
exactly, until we know for sure, which will probably never come about, there will be the believers...and athiests.
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Old 12-06-2006, 06:53 PM #49
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So you believe that simply because what we can see around us doesn't have life, that means we're special?

$5,000,000 that the nearest planet with intelligent life doesn't believe in Christianity, or any other religion we have.


who knows...maybe they do maybe they dont, maybe they dont believe in exactly what christianity or islam or something says, they may have their own version, but it may very well include a supernatural being that created a species.
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:02 PM #50
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I'd bet with you on that one. Not against you. With our limited knowledge though (which creates all of these questions), we are the only ones with life. Is it likely that we are the only ones? No, but it's all that we do know.

I was just trying to show how we aren't the only example of what can happen to a world. We are one out of a lot, just one possibility of what can occur when atoms slam together.

TES - Nice stories, very inspirational whether you believe or not.
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:03 PM #51
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TES - Nice stories, very inspirational whether you believe or not.
Thanks. Glad to hear someone read it all. It's a whole lot... hey, I noticed you live in West Virginia. Sent you a PM about something...
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Old 12-06-2006, 07:37 PM #52
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I feel that god can neither be proven nor disproven
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Old 12-07-2006, 01:02 AM #53
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Where did this god come from that turned nothing into something?
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:48 AM #54
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if there is a god he is a horrible mean and non benovlant (SP) being
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:06 AM #55
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if there is a god he is a horrible mean and non benovlant (SP) being
How do you know God is not benevolent?

And, if God is benevolent, how can he be mean and horrible? or horribly mean?

That means that he has no part in our lives.
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Old 12-08-2006, 01:09 AM #56
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Figure I'd start out the new subforum with a debate...Is it more likely that there is a god, or is it more likely that there isn't one?
YES there is a God. If there wasnt one how did you get here? The only way you can be here and everything else is by Jesus Christ. And guys please caps the "G" in God thxs
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Old 12-08-2006, 01:26 AM #57
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Okay, I'll tell some of my stories then.

It's eight Friday night and I'm looking at the sky
And I'm trying to talk to God, trying to ask the reason why
How come you're no longer in this place with us
And why is it you're not standing face to face with us
But after all that asking, I remembered one thing
We've gotta go with God's will, no matter how much pain it brings
I don't wanna let you go, but Joe I must
I'll do what I gotta do, in God I trust
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust

Those are the stories I have to tell. I've heard so many more stories from other people that I could talk about for hours... not to mention I could talk about not what God saved me from, but what He's kept me from.
WOW thas all i have to say WOW! you have amazing stories...hearing what you have to say and what God has shown to you made me look @ what God has done for me and look @ my walk with him.....You have an awsome testamonie i can tell and if you havent shared it before start....God blessed me with not prophecy like you but he has blessed me with judgement, a heart of gold (as people phrase it), and a way with word's (as i phrase it).
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Old 12-08-2006, 03:01 AM #58
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YES there is a God. If there wasnt one how did you get here? The only way you can be here and everything else is by Jesus Christ. And guys please caps the "G" in God thxs
You seem very close minded. I will not captilize god, there is no point, not capitilizing something shows no disrespect. For all you know there is no god, there was no adam and eve, we will never have proof of how we came to be, so I see no point it wasting my life away trying to find an answer. People have tried for thousands of years and still, nothing. What a feutile search. You have no proof of a 'god,' why do you think the theory of evolution was brought about? However, we can't prove that. So why do people still strive to know?

I personaly find religion, and god, to be something that the weak and afraid fall back on when they are afraid of say, death. They want comfort in knowing there is a 'reward' or 'better life' after this life. Well to tell you the truth, the world as we know it is a ****ing mess, a hell hole of hate, lies, and despair. If there was a god, would he not want peace for his 'children'? And if he was so merciful, why was lucifer cast from heaven? He's supposed to be forgiving is he not? They say sinners go to hell. I though if you ask for forgivness from jesus and the lord you were allowed into heaven. Apparently not. I do not, and will never believe in god, my parents do, they don't know I don't and I plan on keeping it like this, I'm sure they wouldn't accept it, being the tightwads they are on subjects like this, so im content with my life as it is.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:19 AM #59
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Originally Posted by ISmokeIce View Post
How do you know God is not benevolent?

And, if God is benevolent, how can he be mean and horrible? or horribly mean?

That means that he has no part in our lives.
If god is willing to prevent evil but not able, then he is not omnipotent.
If god is able to prevent evil but not willing, then he is malevolent.
If god is both able and willing to prevent evil, whence cometh evil?
If god is neither willing nor able to prevent evil, why call him god?

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Old 12-08-2006, 09:14 AM #60
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Ah, but "beauty" is not objective. What you find beautiful, an alien race might find disgusting and offensive. You believe the earth is beautiful because you live here, and humans don't like thinking that they live in a stinkhole, so they have taught their children that things like sunrises and blue skies are beautiful. If the earth had a red sky and black water, you probably would have been raised to believe that red skies and tarry beaches were beautiful. Just because something is "beautiful" doesn't mean it wasn't random.

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This guy knows how to keep a debate going. Thank you. Also, I completely agree with everything you have said in this thread.
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:29 AM #61
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If god is both able and willing to prevent evil, whence cometh evil?
God gave free will...
Here's an interesting little anticdote I found a while back.

The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists?
A student bravely replied yes, he did!"
"God created everything?" The professor asked.
"Yes, sir," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil."
The student became quiet before such an answer.

The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody and every object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat.

The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does".

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. "These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

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Ah, but "beauty" is not objective. What you find beautiful, an alien race might find disgusting and offensive.
The issue is not beauty, it is complexity.
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:55 AM #62
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I do not believe in a god of any sort. I believe everything around us is the result of random chances and circumstances that have compounded over the preceding billions of years.

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Determinist?
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Old 12-08-2006, 01:26 PM #63
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I assume you mean molecular determinism? I don't believe in it, there is enough randomness in electron motion to induce truly random interactions to the world.

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