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Old 10-15-2006, 05:57 PM #1
m-a-r-k-7
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Hoover Articles

Articles about different Mag tech by Rob Hoover.

Automag Bolts:

http://www.pcri.net/hoover7.html

"PCRI Tech Automag Tips from Rob Hoover
This month we're going to talk about Automag bolts. There are four types of Automag bolts--the AGD "foamie" bolt, AGD "foamieless", post venturi and the non post venturi.


Automag Bolts

"For the most part every one knows the foamie and foamieless bolts from AGD. They are very good quality parts and have the backing of the company.

As for the Venturi bolts, there are several makers out there and some are not using good quality materials in the construction. At this time I will point out that every Pro Team Products bolt I have come across has had excessive wear on sear lockup lip. This in the long run can cause problems with shoot down, accidental gun discharge and leaking down the barrel. I like the basic design with this bolt but it needs to be made from better, more durable materials. I should also point out that Pro Team Products is known for keeping their customers happy and will likely replace problem bolts.

Now for the juicy parts. When looking at an aftermarket bolt you really should look at a few things. The design is very important for several reasons, which is why I separated the post/non-post bolts. Bolts that do not take up the extra room that the foamie did, will probably have problems chopping or breaking balls. The foamie in a stock bolt takes up space in the breach and keeps the ball from rolling back in to the bolt face allowing another ball to partially drop into the feed port. When the trigger is pulled and this is happening a couple of things can result. You get very lucky and nothing happens, or the bolt will crack the second ball and then when you shoot it you either blow it up in the breach or the barrel. With venturi bolts, you have the added problem of the concave face that will allow the ball to roll back even farther into the bolt face and allowing the ball to drop farther into the feed port. If you are using a small OD (outside dimension) ball then the problem is even worse!

Something else that can cause more of a problem are the very sharp edges on some of the venturi bolts. The sharp edges can actually "cut" the paintball. Some makers of the non-post Automag bolts have added a little foamie to the center of the bolt. This helps a lot, but with smaller paint it still may not be enough take up room. I have seen players that have added a small piece of foam to the foam post on these bolts. This can work well, but you'll have to deal with the problems of the regular foamie bolt (foamie falling off, etc.).

This may or may not be a concern for most players, but the efficiency of the bolt is also in question. If you are very close to running out of air when playing (shooting all your paint) you need to think about how much more air this bolt is going to use. Most bolts will make you run more adjustment into your velocity (meaning you need more pressure to get the ball out of the barrel at the same feet per second). If you have a few friends that have different bolts, get together and do a little testing. Get a case of paint and use the same barrel/gun for each test. Test with the stock AGD bolt and set the velocity to 295. Next change out the stock bolt with a venturi bolt and shoot some paint and check the velocity.

Now another tidbit to think about. The idea of a venturi bolt is to evenly distribute the air all the way around the outside circumference of the ball, not in the center of the ball. Most people do this with the many small holes placed on the outer edge of the bolt. Sometimes this can restrict airflow. Now look at the stock AGD bolt and think about how the air hits the ball. Its not hitting in the center of the ball but the outside edges. It has a very even delivery with little to no restriction to the air flow.


PCRI has tested several of the venturi bolts and have found no major improvements over the stock bolts. When viewing the potential problems of aftermarket bolts, it would seem silly to spend more money on a product that in the long run could cause problems and isn't backed by the manufacturer. If you wanted to buy a bolt to have either an extra Foamie bolt or a foamie and foamieless to choose from they are still less expensive than most of the aftermarket bolts and they have a factory warranty. But in the long run that is up to you. Try as many as you can get our hands on and test them using the same paint, barrels and conditions.


As always play safe and smart and I'll see ya in Chicago.

(Rob Hoover, is a certified Airgun Designs technician and can be found at most major Paintball events working the AGD booth.) "

Anodizing/plating/powder coating


http://www.pcri.net/hoover6.html

"PCRI Tech Automag Tips from Rob Hoover
Well now that the weather has changed (well at least for most of us) it is time to start tinkering with our guns. Now is a good time to have all that fancy mill work and anodizing completed--but there are a few things that you need to know before you delve into the mess that can be plating/painting and coatings.


With anodizing, what you really need to look is the experience if the company doing the work. Most if the big names that do the anodizing for paintball have enough experience to keep the parts in tolerance. Let me explain this a little better.

When you anodize aluminum (which is the only metal you can anodize) you are using a chemical bath with dyes and electric current to invoke a change in the surface to accept the dyes. Now the big concern here is that the part can't stay in the vat too long or it will change the tolerances of the part or parts being anodized. By tolerance I mean the sizes. I have seen parts the looked great but caused problems with screw holes to big to hold a screw and the threads pull out. With the Automag the problem when a rail had been dipped too long is the rail bushing will fall out, the pin from the main body no longer fits snugly in the recess in the rail and sear pins wobble around and cause excessive wear to the rail/sear/bolt. So if you are going to have a part anodized by a local firm, make sure to explain that you need them to be very mindful of the tolerances for the parts. A VERY important note when sending stuff to an anodizing shop is to make sure you take all of the non aluminum parts out of what you're sending. If you leave a steel screw in your aluminum vertical-bottle adapter it may cause a burn of the metal you are anodizing.

Plating/Chroming - With most plating jobs you are adding material to the parts. The steps involve a lot of work which is why chrome plating is expensive. To start off with you strip and clean the parts and then start with the polishing. Next you plate some copper and more polishing and then a layer of chrome. With all of these steps it is very labor intensive. The nice thing here is that there is little danger of ruining any parts unless you remove the pin from the rail.


Powder Coating - This process puts a very durable color coat on almost any type of part or material. The parts are first cleaned and treated, and are then charged with current and a special spray gun then shoots very fine powder onto the parts. The powder stays attached because of the electric charge passing through the parts. The parts are then moved into an oven where they are baked. This melts the powder and covers the surface with a very consistent thickness. The only exception is at the ends. This is the one real draw back to powder coating the Automag's main body. There can be a thick build-up on the end of the tube. This will cause all sorts of problems from sear engagement, to inconsistent velocity and leaks. Some people have just sanded down the ends but the overall thickness is very important because adding material to the rail side of the main body will cause the above problems.

Painting - The old basic--you can do this yourself, but you need to be very careful. I have seen some awesome work done with paint. What you need to keep an eye on are the fit parts--don't paint the rail where the grip attaches (you can mask this area and paint the rest just be careful of the trigger and safety), and the valley where the main body rests. Don't paint the bottom of the main body where it will touch the rail. Again you can mask these areas and paint around them. Try not to get paint down into the power feed, regulator and barely openings.

There are some great companies out there that do great work, PK's does some of the best custom work I have seen to date. They do stuff that looks like custom airbrush work and the tinting and mill valley fills with different colors.


Well have fun and get creative.

(Rob Hoover, is a certified Airgun Designs technician and can be found at most major Paintball events working the AGD booth.)

You can reach Rob at rhoover@capaccess.org"
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Old 10-15-2006, 05:59 PM #2
m-a-r-k-7
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Filter/double tigger/on/off

http://www.pcri.net/hoover4.html

"This month I'll be covering several small things that seem to have no solution--but or course they do.

#1 - All new Automags come with a built in filter. This filter is screwed into the hose so that the filter element is facing the air source. On standard back bottle set up it will be in the hose end that is screwed into the bottle adapter. The thing you really have to watch with this filter is that it MUST face the air source. If it is installed backwards it will cause major shootdown problems. Also you need to make sure you do not over tighten the hose & elbows as you can crush the filter. This will cause all kinds of problems from the debris from the filter. This will cause pitting in the reg. seat and can in some cases hold open the regulator valve pin causing back venting through the regulator piston. As a bonus if you have a lot of debris, it can cause the permanent failure of the regulator piston to seal correctly. The passage in the filters are rather small. I would keep a few extras around--they are easily replaced and they don't cost a lot of money.

#2 - Next is the two-finger triggers. I will sum this up by saying that I see more people squeegeeing their guns with two-finger triggers than most single trigger people. There are several reason for this and I will try to explain them as best I can here.


Many of the two-finger triggers just are not made correctly. If you have to adjust the trigger rod out to get the gun to work, that should be a good indication that the trigger isn't any good. Adjusting the trigger rod out will screw up the timing of the gun just as messing around with the Autococker's 3-way will screw that gun up.


Wrong trigger: Many people have tried to use the Automag trigger in the 45 grip frames on their mags. This is wrong and will cause the failure of the clevis rod. You need to use the Automag trigger in the AGD grip frames (aluminum and carbon fiber ) and the trigger shoe for the 45 grip frames.


You can only shoot the gun so fast. The added leverage of the double finger trigger allows some people to shoot the gun so fast that the feed system can't keep up. If this happens you'll end up chopping balls. On the other side of that, you have people that are not making full trigger pulls and are short-stroking the trigger. Over all I would be careful with double finger triggers.


#3 - On/Off tops and Assemblies


This is going to be hard to explain to some extent but I will try.


The on/off top does not move up or down (minor machining tolerances can allow a very little movement but thats picking nits ). It will however spin.


If you cut all the grooves in the back side of the top, all you are doing is allowing the o-rings to get small cuts and nicks from the machined grooves. The air does not pass the outside of the top--it goes through the middle hole and then out the slots into the air chamber.


The two tops I do like are the new Airgun Designs, and Vemon tops. I think the Vemon Wizard Valve may a little excessive though.

If you have not seen the new AGD on/off top, then you are missing something. Have you ever been cleaning your gun and reassembled everything and then have a shoot down problem? Have you spent hours working on the gun and without finding the problem? Then it hits you that the top might be in up side down ? You flip it over and BANG it's running like gang busters. Well the new ADG top is universal--you can't flip it. They also opened up the center a little and beveled the middle. I have been running one since Orlando and it has worked great.

I have a collection of tops and I have made a few myself. I have never really seen any improvement in recharge rates. I have had to remove most types of tops at some time from guns because they were causing problems like shootdown or odd trigger/velocity problem. I have never had a problem with the Wizard Valve or the stock on/off top. I have however had problems with just about EVERY other top out there.

It's the little things that make your gun tick. Be careful not to use inferior parts. That my time for this month.

(Rob Hoover is a certified Airgun Designs technician and frequently works the Airgun tech table at major events.)

Contact Rob Hoover at rhoover@capaccess.org


Play Paintball : Try www.warpig.com & www.airgun.com"

The Dreaded Mag Problems


http://www.pcri.net/hoover3.html

This month I'll be covering several small things that seem to have no solution--but or course they do.


#1 - All new Automags come with a built in filter. This filter is screwed into the hose so that the filter element is facing the air source. On standard back bottle set up it will be in the hose end that is screwed into the bottle adapter. The thing you really have to watch with this filter is that it MUST face the air source. If it is installed backwards it will cause major shootdown problems. Also you need to make sure you do not over tighten the hose & elbows as you can crush the filter. This will cause all kinds of problems from the debris from the filter. This will cause pitting in the reg. seat and can in some cases hold open the regulator valve pin causing back venting through the regulator piston. As a bonus if you have a lot of debris, it can cause the permanent failure of the regulator piston to seal correctly. The passage in the filters are rather small. I would keep a few extras around--they are easily replaced and they don't cost a lot of money.

#2 - Next is the two-finger triggers. I will sum this up by saying that I see more people squeegeeing their guns with two-finger triggers than most single trigger people. There are several reason for this and I will try to explain them as best I can here.

Many of the two-finger triggers just are not made correctly. If you have to adjust the trigger rod out to get the gun to work, that should be a good indication that the trigger isn't any good. Adjusting the trigger rod out will screw up the timing of the gun just as messing around with the Autococker's 3-way will screw that gun up.


Wrong trigger: Many people have tried to use the Automag trigger in the 45 grip frames on their mags. This is wrong and will cause the failure of the clevis rod. You need to use the Automag trigger in the AGD grip frames (aluminum and carbon fiber ) and the trigger shoe for the 45 grip frames.


You can only shoot the gun so fast. The added leverage of the double finger trigger allows some people to shoot the gun so fast that the feed system can't keep up. If this happens you'll end up chopping balls. On the other side of that, you have people that are not making full trigger pulls and are short-stroking the trigger. Over all I would be careful with double finger triggers.


#3 - On/Off tops and Assemblies

This is going to be hard to explain to some extent but I will try.


The on/off top does not move up or down (minor machining tolerances can allow a very little movement but thats picking nits ). It will however spin. If you cut all the grooves in the back side of the top, all you are doing is allowing the o-rings to get small cuts and nicks from the machined grooves. The air does not pass the outside of the top--it goes through the middle hole and then out the slots into the air chamber.


The two tops I do like are the new Airgun Designs, and Vemon tops. I think the Vemon Wizard Valve may a little excessive though.

If you have not seen the new AGD on/off top, then you are missing something. Have you ever been cleaning your gun and reassembled everything and then have a shoot down problem? Have you spent hours working on the gun and without finding the problem? Then it hits you that the top might be in up side down ? You flip it over and BANG it's running like gang busters. Well the new ADG top is universal--you can't flip it. They also opened up the center a little and beveled the middle. I have been running one since Orlando and it has worked great.

I have a collection of tops and I have made a few myself. I have never really seen any improvement in recharge rates. I have had to remove most types of tops at some time from guns because they were causing problems like shootdown or odd trigger/velocity problem. I have never had a problem with the Wizard Valve or the stock on/off top. I have however had problems with just about EVERY other top out there.

It's the little things that make your gun tick. Be careful not to use inferior parts. That my time for this month.

(Rob Hoover is a certified Airgun Designs technician and frequently works the Airgun tech table at major events.)

Contact Rob Hoover at rhoover@capaccess.org"




I will post more as I find them. I had nothing to do with these articles, they were all a product of Rob Hoover.
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Old 10-15-2006, 07:57 PM #3
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How old are these, I remmeber browsing them before on that sight. Wonder what his opinion on AGD is.
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Old 10-17-2006, 03:48 PM #4
m-a-r-k-7
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no idea, I found the links on MCB.
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Old 10-17-2006, 04:30 PM #5
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#2 - Next is the two-finger triggers ... and I will try to explain them as best I can here.

Many of the two-finger triggers just are not made correctly. If you have to adjust the trigger rod out to get the gun to work, that should be a good indication that the trigger isn't any good. Adjusting the trigger rod out will screw up the timing of the gun just as messing around with the Autococker's 3-way will screw that gun up.
O RLY? Cause Mags use timing and all
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Old 10-17-2006, 05:26 PM #6
KartaKeeper
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they kinda dooo

he used timing as an example, but basicly if you dont have the on/off recharge at the correct length(too long or too short) itl throw everything outt whack.(but im sure you know this)

also the first doubel triggers were pretty bad with tolerances(benchmark), etc
Dyes were ok but they had made the tolerances smaller and attempted to remove trigger play at the cost of increasing the chance of shortroking
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