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Old 10-06-2006, 03:30 PM #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wango_Tango
you know not all teachers are like that. I've had a couple that were more than capable of taking down the biggest kids in our school 1 on 1.
Right. I've had a few male teachers as well, that look like if **** went down, maybe they could put up a fight...but would they?

But that was 10 years ago for me. Back in my day the majority of my teachers were frail, middle aged to elderly women. I guess the majority of teachers today are action movie stars. that's awesome for you guys!
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:30 PM #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptiwave
Not only the teachers but the maint. staff and the lunch lady too.
I am just wondering how many more school shooting will have to take place before someone says enough.
Give them a chance to defend themselves.

how do you propose we tain these teachers to use thier weapons? I mean good lord are we going to put 70 year old women through swat training?

Are the pot smoking english teachers gonna do two weeks with the SEALs?
your trying to arm a group that for the most part is fundamnetally unwilling or unable to be armed. its gonna be worse than the current situation.

The Solution is Ending Racial Discrimination, and Better Parenting at Home. not giving the Lunch lady a colt .45 and telling her to take down anyone that pulls a gun.
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:35 PM #87
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Ok, first of all, I'm a teacher and I don't think the answer to school shootings is arming the teachers.

That being said, people need to stop *****ing about teachers not being able to handle anything like this. As if the children or any other adult out there is. Every blessed person says they have have a story about some whacked-out, nut-job of a teacher. Hell, I have some of my own! But, to link the title "Teacher" to that of weak sheepling who can't handle a tense situation is not realistic at all. Teachers have been dealing with tense situations since the dawn of education. Fights in the hall, drug busts, personal attacks from ALL sides, etc...yeah, I think the majority of teachers would be able to handle it just as much as any other "normal" human in any other job could.

As far as "busting a kid in the face" or "being thrown out of the room into the hall and getting beat," well, it happens - usually after the ******* kid pushed the teacher too far. Kids have to realize they take advantage of this "civil liberties" crap and someone is going to crack on them if they don't quit being dicks about it. And yes, it could be a teacher who cracks! These days, kids sit around and push and push and push, then dare and dare and dare teachers to try and do something, then when they do, everyone complains the teacher is bad and is a joke - yet the ******* kid is made into a hero. Well, ok, that's a whole other rant - just stop thinking that we teachers aren't capable of the type of action that may or may not be needed. On a personal note, I don't think a teacher with a CCW permit would use a gun to control a student in the classroom anymore than a person in an office would use it to get back at a coworker. Give us more credit than that!

On that note, NO ONE could handle anything like this if they weren't properly trained. Not just teachers, but Joe Average Office Worker as well. Now, it's my experience IF this were to happen, the state would definitly spend a lot of money adequately training those that would be carrying weapons. And I honestly don't think it would be a requirement and not every teacher would be required to carry a weapon - just those that have gone through the training. Again, what makes a teacher so different than Joe Blow in Community Fidelity that carries a weapon? I mean other than the fact that the people Joe Blow work with don't purposefully and maliciously mean to push him?

Guns in the classroom? No, I don't think that's the answer. I think there should be a trained security detail in each school, paid for by the state (even at the cost of salaried personel or whatever.) It should just be a part of it.

Saying teachers can't handle it? Not correct either. Everyone just needs to chill and get a grip and realize it isn't going to happen ever so it's not worth arguing about!
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:43 PM #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furious S
I challenge my teachers all the time. A lot of them hate me. I support this bill. Contrary to popular (and ignorant) belief, having a gun does not cause you to have urges to kill people over small things. I have quite a few guns, including an AK47 (well, a semi-auto clone), and I can be very ill tempered, I'll get in someones face and yell at them, I'll even punch them or throw them on the ground. However, I have never threatened anyone with a gun, and I never will unless I believe that myself, my friends, or my family are in danger. It doesn't take a genius to know when you should or shouldn't bring a gun into the situation. Every teacher would know anyways that they would get fired if they took out the gun for any reason no absolutely necessary.

You have an auful lot of "I's" in there. Thats your temperment, you way of daling with things. Everyine is different and handles situations differently. You cant think just cuz you dont use your gun, doesnt mean a threatened teacher wouldnt.
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:54 PM #89
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Originally Posted by Overbear
News article, police report, proof of some kind. I absolutely do not belive you, because had this happend the teacher would have been all over the news.
You dont belive alot of things lol, sorry to disapoint but this was over 10 years ago, point was every teacher has an a-hole kid in his /her class people can only take so much crap before they go off.
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Old 10-06-2006, 05:04 PM #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostfire
even if you did arm them, i doubt they'd be effective in stopping someone trained with firearms.
Wait a minute, are you seriously calling an angsty teen who shoots up their school "someone trained with firearms"? Please. At the best, these kids will test out their guns shooting a tree in the woods.

BTW, your average cop can't shoot for ****. Police shooting qualifications are a joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furious_J
You dont belive alot of things lol, sorry to disapoint but this was over 10 years ago, point was every teacher has an a-hole kid in his /her class people can only take so much crap before they go off.
Actually, teachers can take plenty of crap. Thats one of the biggest things that separates teens from adults. They typically can take ****, and don't go nut just because they were made fun of for a while. If teachers were just going to kill a kid everything one of them was a total *******s, we'd see a lot more stabbings. Many of my teachers at least have a Swiss army knife in their desk, with a blade 2-3 inches long. Might be less likely to kill someone than a .45, but if these stabbings were happening, we'd be hearing them. That, in my opinion, totally falsifies the claim that teachers will "snap" and attack their students whenever they are unruly.
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Old 10-06-2006, 05:50 PM #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haga652001
how do you propose we tain these teachers to use thier weapons? I mean good lord are we going to put 70 year old women through swat training?

Are the pot smoking english teachers gonna do two weeks with the SEALs?
your trying to arm a group that for the most part is fundamnetally unwilling or unable to be armed. its gonna be worse than the current situation.

The Solution is Ending Racial Discrimination, and Better Parenting at Home. not giving the Lunch lady a colt .45 and telling her to take down anyone that pulls a gun.
Same way as Airline pilots.
Make it voluntary and send them to training by the US marshals.
Regarding your solution - Are you going to legislate better parenting? How do we end racial descrimination?
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Old 10-06-2006, 05:55 PM #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR55
That's stupid. Why can't they just set up archery or shooting ranges instead? A lot safer and just as effective.
then the retarded goth/emo kids would have access to them and shoot people then slit their wrists.
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Old 10-06-2006, 06:58 PM #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptiwave
c) drink bleach

I wish our company didnt have the no CC policy. There was a girl not far from our office that was stabbed iin the parking lot by here jealous boyfriend after a 5 minute long screaming argument.
If someone in the complex was CC, it could have been prevented. Not by shooting the guy, but maybe changing his mind with a slide racking.

And thats another point the anti-gun freaks don't get. You don't have to even SHOW a gun to disarm over 90% of the cases. Just saying "I am armed, please leave me alone" disarms most of them, the rest of the time one doesn not need to take action, simply bringing the weapon into view defuses the problem and puts you, the CCW owner in control.

Prime example, AZ, where you can carry openly on your hip. One of my good friends gets out of his car and observes in the parking lot, a man beating on a woman big time. He aproched and man says "back off aint non of your bis" lady is clearly scared, hurt, and in danger and male subject turns to hit her again. Friend pulls his jacket back, lays his hand on the hilt of his pistol and says "Back off! lay down, I am placeing you under citizens arrest for assult" male subject turns to charge friend...sees gun, promptly gets on ground and says "hey, its cool, dont shoot"

Cops come, guy is charged with assult and intent to do bodly harm. WOman was his ex wife, who has a restraining order on him. Had my friend not been there, and not been armed, she would have been killed there is zero doubt in his and her mind (they talk still all the time, good friends he says)

You anti-gun hippy punks seem to think just because a gun is there someone is going to die/get shot. Even in the case of colimbine, I bet you $$$ that had a teacher been able to get off 3-4 shots at the two punks doing the killing, It would have sent them running and saved tons of lives.
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Old 10-06-2006, 07:54 PM #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overbear
And thats another point the anti-gun freaks don't get. You don't have to even SHOW a gun to disarm over 90% of the cases. Just saying "I am armed, please leave me alone" disarms most of them, the rest of the time one doesn not need to take action, simply bringing the weapon into view defuses the problem and puts you, the CCW owner in control.

Prime example, AZ, where you can carry openly on your hip. One of my good friends gets out of his car and observes in the parking lot, a man beating on a woman big time. He aproched and man says "back off aint non of your bis" lady is clearly scared, hurt, and in danger and male subject turns to hit her again. Friend pulls his jacket back, lays his hand on the hilt of his pistol and says "Back off! lay down, I am placeing you under citizens arrest for assult" male subject turns to charge friend...sees gun, promptly gets on ground and says "hey, its cool, dont shoot"

Cops come, guy is charged with assult and intent to do bodly harm. WOman was his ex wife, who has a restraining order on him. Had my friend not been there, and not been armed, she would have been killed there is zero doubt in his and her mind (they talk still all the time, good friends he says)

You anti-gun hippy punks seem to think just because a gun is there someone is going to die/get shot. Even in the case of colimbine, I bet you $$$ that had a teacher been able to get off 3-4 shots at the two punks doing the killing, It would have sent them running and saved tons of lives.
Ignorance is bliss.

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Old 10-06-2006, 08:00 PM #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overbear
And thats another point the anti-gun freaks don't get. You don't have to even SHOW a gun to disarm over 90% of the cases. Just saying "I am armed, please leave me alone" disarms most of them, the rest of the time one doesn not need to take action, simply bringing the weapon into view defuses the problem and puts you, the CCW owner in control.

Prime example, AZ, where you can carry openly on your hip. One of my good friends gets out of his car and observes in the parking lot, a man beating on a woman big time. He aproched and man says "back off aint non of your bis" lady is clearly scared, hurt, and in danger and male subject turns to hit her again. Friend pulls his jacket back, lays his hand on the hilt of his pistol and says "Back off! lay down, I am placeing you under citizens arrest for assult" male subject turns to charge friend...sees gun, promptly gets on ground and says "hey, its cool, dont shoot"

Cops come, guy is charged with assult and intent to do bodly harm. WOman was his ex wife, who has a restraining order on him. Had my friend not been there, and not been armed, she would have been killed there is zero doubt in his and her mind (they talk still all the time, good friends he says)

You anti-gun hippy punks seem to think just because a gun is there someone is going to die/get shot. Even in the case of colimbine, I bet you $$$ that had a teacher been able to get off 3-4 shots at the two punks doing the killing, It would have sent them running and saved tons of lives.
if no one stopped it when they didnt have a gun what makes you think that would stop it if they did? Seemed that people were quite content to stay insdie and ignore it..has nothing to do with having a gun or not
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:35 PM #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furious S
That, in my opinion, totally falsifies the claim that teachers will "snap" and attack their students whenever they are unruly.
Never said that all teachers would "snap" but no one can say that it hasn’t happened before. You never know what someone; anyone will do when driven to a certain point. I’ve seen teachers throw desk, piano’s, yes a piano this guy was 6’8 and 350 lbs, (he flipped it over) students, books etc. Most of these men and women had been teaching 10 years or more and all seemed pretty calm, but if someone pushes your buttons no one knows what you may do. My brother -in-law is a teacher and one more that one occasion he's almost "lost it" with a student.
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:39 PM #97
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School staff using guns to stop school shootings? Oddly enough, this has already happened, or at least could have if the staff were allowed to carry guns on campus.
http://www.rkba.org/users/myrick.txt
Quote:
Mr. Balantine said when he heard the shots he ran into the
hall and "saw a kid with a gun," then immediately called 911.
Mr. Myrick, he said, was in his office on the opposite side of a
"commons" that the school surrounds.

Myrick also had run into the hall and seen a student with a
rifle; he shoved several students into his office and locked the
door, then ran toward the shooting.

He saw Woodham shoot and wound one of the students -- and
Woodham saw him, so Myrick jumped back out of the line of sight.

That's when, Mr. [Balantine] told me, "Mr. Myrick remembered
that he had been out to visit his parents over the weekend, and
that he remembered that he had forgotten to take his gun out of
his pickup.

"So Mr. Myrick ran across the commons and out the back door
and got the gun, and loaded it, then came around the side of the
building."

At that point, Mr. Balantine said, he saw the student pull
out of the school parking lot and pull up behind a car that was
stopped at a stop sign. As Myrick ran toward the car, Woodham
pulled around the stopped car, but spun out and off the road.

Before he could get the car going again, Myrick was there
with the .45 pointed in Woodham's face, demanding "Why did you do
that?"

That's when Woodham "instantly became a coward," Myrick had
told one local reporter.
So, the assistant principle saw the shooter after the first shots were fired.
Seems to me it would have been nice if that man had been carrying his weapon on him, and would have saved a few lives.
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:41 PM #98
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lol i could just imagine the school calender 3rd wed. of the month student holiday, teacher shooting range workshop. but yea i wouldnt want any of the teachers in my school to have a gun, id much rather have our dean who is an ex. marine or my principal or a few of the gym teachers be the select few who may be allowed to carry a hand gun. They should let the teachers have tazers though..now i know people r gunna be like wtf is a tazer gunna do when a guys a got a gun...but when everyones lined up on their knees about the be executed the teacher could whip out the tazer and get the gunman disoriented enough to get the gun.
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:54 PM #99
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Look, let me begin my response with a preface here. I am a Life Member of the NRA. I have been a member of no fewer than three gun clubs, I attend gun shows regularly, I have every one of Wayne LaPierre's books as well at the books written by Charlton Heston (autographed copy) and Ted Nugent. I have NRA stickers all over my car and do whatever I an to promote them whereever I go. I have a concealed weapons permit, I own numerous guns, and I regularly participate in shooting competitions (usually IDPA-style pistol)

That having been said, this is a very bad idea for a law. There is simply no good way to train a teacher to shoot in a situation like that. We would essentially be asking teachers to use a handgun in a highly effective and precise manner in a super-high-stress situation and in an target-rich environment full of innocent bystanders. I consider myself a very good shot. I am not fast enough to clear those IDPA stages like some people, but I sure as heck can hit what I am shooting at. I can ever clear a moving target with my Glock 34. But would I be comfortable making a shot against an armed moving target in a school full of children? No way.

We have police in this country for a reason. What we need I think is something like sky marshalls - but for schools. People who are highly trained in dealing with these situations - where making shots like the one I described above is their JOB. The requires more training than someone is going to obtain in a concealed weapons course. I had to take one for my permit, and essentially, all they do is make sure you can hit a target that is around 10 - 15 feet away. That isn't very difficult. They had me doing it with my left hand only by the end of the course because they thought I was showing off (I am right handed) and I was still hitting black. But that is not very difficult to do. Stress shooting IS difficult and that is why this is a job for professional marksmen.

I would not, however, be opposed to teachers with Tasers. Although painful, a miss with a Taser would not have the lethal consequences of a miss with a firearm.
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Old 10-06-2006, 11:02 PM #100
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Tasers work so well that Police have stopped carrying firearms...
Oh, wait, they haven't.
A taser is an effective tool when you have a non-lethal situation, and a non-compliant subject. You don't use a taser when someone has a gun pointed at you because tasers fail, and fail often.
A heavy jacket will stop taser darts. Loose clothing can also stop them before they penetrate skin, and become effective.
The worst thing we could do would be to provide a false sense of security by giving school staff a less than effective tool to stop an armed assailant.

Besides, the point of the law is to allow staff to be armed, not require it. The simple fact that a teacher MIGHT be armed will go a long way to stop people from thinking of a school as a "safe" place for them to go on a shooting rampage.
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Old 10-06-2006, 11:05 PM #101
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I agreewith Vandyke schools need more/better security not home education teachers with gats. I also believe that parents should pay more attention to their kids making pipe bombs in the basement but that’s another topic.
Side note:School will always be a safe place for a shooting rampage no matter what, all it takes is a few clips and an assault rifle and a car not that I’m saying that’s cool or anything.
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Old 10-06-2006, 11:08 PM #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vantrepes
Tasers work so well that Police have stopped carrying firearms...
Oh, wait, they haven't.
A taser is an effective tool when you have a non-lethal situation, and a non-compliant subject. You don't use a taser when someone has a gun pointed at you because tasers fail, and fail often.
A heavy jacket will stop taser darts. Loose clothing can also stop them before they penetrate skin, and become effective.
The worst thing we could do would be to provide a false sense of security by giving school staff a less than effective tool to stop an armed assailant.

Besides, the point of the law is to allow staff to be armed, not require it. The simple fact that a teacher MIGHT be armed will go a long way to stop people from thinking of a school as a "safe" place for them to go on a shooting rampage.

That is a double edged sword. I don't think it would be difficult for a student to figure out which teachers are armed. All they need to do is find the weakest and most poorly trained teacher and take their gun. I don't think a 110lb math teacher with a Glock 19 and only basic shooting skills would be able to stop a 171lb kid wanting to go on a rampage - at least not easily.

In any case, body armor is more effective and readily available these days. All the kids need to do is get some body armor and they will be protected from handgun ammo. A professional, however, armed with a PDW and ammunition that penetrates such armor, would be able to deal with this situation.
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Old 10-07-2006, 01:06 AM #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonlvandyke
That is a double edged sword. I don't think it would be difficult for a student to figure out which teachers are armed. All they need to do is find the weakest and most poorly trained teacher and take their gun. I don't think a 110lb math teacher with a Glock 19 and only basic shooting skills would be able to stop a 171lb kid wanting to go on a rampage - at least not easily.

In any case, body armor is more effective and readily available these days. All the kids need to do is get some body armor and they will be protected from handgun ammo. A professional, however, armed with a PDW and ammunition that penetrates such armor, would be able to deal with this situation.

1)please tell us HOW they are going to know someone is armed
2)body armor what fantasy land do you live in! our own troops cant get the stuff, I can't afford level 3, where do you think a kid is going to get some? (FYI level 2 and 1 will NOT stop most High power handgun ammo)
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Old 10-07-2006, 08:10 AM #104
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[quote=Spiral_Out]All a shooter would have to do is gun down the teacher first, which would be easy... It's called the element of surprise. Unless a teacher was trained to draw on every person who opened their classroom door, they're not going to stand a snowflakes chance in hell of shooting first, especially if the gun is locked up in their desk.
QUOTE]


I don't think I am going to be able to convince you of anything with an attitude like that.

Putting a firearm in a classroom "locked in a desk" will certainly not help matters at all should it be needed. And you're right it would allow for students to gain access to the weapon if they classroom is unattended. But that danger would be relatively the same as a student getting their hands on a parents or friends gun.

I think you are making a logical fallacy here. You assume that the only thing holding back a kid from attempting a massacre is lack of an appropiate firearm. Truth be told, if the student was planning such an endeavor they would get theri hands on one somewhere, as has been shown to be the case now many many times over.

If you arm teachers, I.E. you have them carry weapons on their person (I wouldnt' call you armed if the gun is in your desk, neither would the police) you provide a ready force of idividuals to call on in case of such an emergency. As I stated, so long as you have the teachers get the proper CCW permits and have the qualify at reguar intervals, you would have a body of individuals who are capable of returnig effective fire on a target.

Your assumption that "the student can get the drop on the teacher" is entirely correct. He may get the drop on one. But if the other teachers are armed, it allows them an opportunity to cover the escape of THEIR students, thus allowing for a lessening of potential tragedy. Besides, the teacher may get the drop on the student. Or maybe, the student, knowing many others will be armed, will not try such a risky endeavor.

Basically you have a minute increase in risk of done correctly (if done correctly a teacher can handle a weapon as effectively as a beat cop any day), while you have a substantial increase in security in event of a shooting. I don't see how you can argue that someone with a gun is far better off in a gun fight than someone who is without.


Then to deal with later issues of potential for body armor and the like. Acquisition of body armor is incredibly expensive, but not outside the boudns of possibility for a student indending on a rampage to acqure. However, there is an assumption that this armor would provide LOTS of protection against pistol fire. Body armor of any reasonable protectivness is VERY difficult to conceal. Anything over LVL II is obvious even to the untrained eye. A kid coming into school in heavy armor would stand out a great deal, thus helping to mitigate his tactical advantage. More to the point, body armor may stop a bullet but you still take the full force of it. At close range even a lowly 9mm to the chest will cause spectacular brusiing and deep tissue damage agaisnt an armored foe. In other words, if a teacher fires back and hits an armored student, the student will in all likelyhood go down.
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Old 10-07-2006, 08:28 AM #105
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[quote=jasonlvandyke]

We have police in this country for a reason. What we need I think is something like sky marshalls - but for schools. People who are highly trained in dealing with these situations - where making shots like the one I described above is their JOB. The requires more training than someone is going to obtain in a concealed weapons course. I had to take one for my permit, and essentially, all they do is make sure you can hit a target that is around 10 - 15 feet away. That isn't very difficult. They had me doing it with my left hand only by the end of the course because they thought I was showing off (I am right handed) and I was still hitting black. But that is not very difficult to do. Stress shooting IS difficult and that is why this is a job for professional marksmen.QUOTE]


You are entirely correct in your staements, however I wish to ammend your comments.

Your average beat cop does NOT have a high degree of marksmanship experience, especially under stessful situations. They do qualify regularly - that much is true. My stance is you give teachers a weapon IF they WANT one AND can get the CCW course, along with very regualr qualifications. Hell, you can even set up courses for this sort of thing for very little at a centralized location for next to nothing that will aid them even more.

I just think it's silly to say you don't want to let someone defend themselves because they won't do it right.
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