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Old 10-10-2006, 11:33 AM #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412
I like many countries, but you said idolize. There is no perfect nation, but every nation especially the US has both good and bad aspects/traits. There are plenty of things the US has done to help the world, but we have also had a large negative impact on it.

Well according to this GDP versus Amount donated to the Tsunami we are not the most generous nation out there.

We don't/didn't take over countries entirely, because it would take too much effort. We don't need them for the land and people we merely need them for their economic resources. An example of this would be Iran. When they decided to nationalize their oil industry in 1953. The US alongside the British helped create a coup and install a puppet dictatorship, which was favorable to US and British interests rather than that of the Iranian people. And we wonder why there is resentment towards the US in these areas.


It is not a conspiracy if it actually happened. Why do you choose to ignore history?
You honestly think the resentment in these areas is because we had a supposed puppet government? They hate us one, because they wish they had our power. Two, because their religion says they should hate us. Why do you think its our fualt. You have no proof to say that we had a puppet government, all that will ever be is conspiracy.
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Old 10-10-2006, 12:04 PM #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANSCOCKER
You honestly think the resentment in these areas is because we had a supposed puppet government? They hate us one, because they wish they had our power. Two, because their religion says they should hate us. Why do you think its our fualt. You have no proof to say that we had a puppet government, all that will ever be is conspiracy.
Why do you deny history? And yes I believe that resentment towards the US is because of our past misdeeds and for the legitimate fear that it could happen again.
I'm going to use wikipedia here, because it is easiest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi
Quote:
Under Kermit Roosevelt Jr.'s direction (a senior CIA agent, and grandson of the former U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt), the CIA and British intelligence funded and led a coup d'etat to overthrow the democratically elected prime minister with the help of military forces loyal to the Shah through Operation Ajax. [1] The plot hinged on orders signed by the Shah to dismiss Mossadegh as prime minister and replace him with General Fazlollah Zahedi, a choice agreed on by the British and Americans. Despite the high-level coordination and planning, the coup initially failed and the Shah fled Iran. After a brief exile in Italy, however, the Shah was brought back again, this time through a second coup which was successful. The deposed Mossadegh was arrested, given a show trial, and placed in solitary confinement for three years in military prison, followed by house arrest for life. Zahedi was installed to succeed Prime Minister Mossadegh.
We also did alot of this in Latin America
1954 US backed coup in Guatemala that overthrew the democratically elected administration of Jacob Arbenz. The coup ended democracy in Guatemala and inaugurated forty years of US-backed dictatorships that presided over the murder of over one hundred thousand civilians. The UN concluded that the murder of civilians by the Guatemalan state reached genocidal proportions during the 1980s with full US support.(7) The record is similar in Chile.
Other examples include Nicarauga and El Salvador.

Not to mention, By 1975, Bush Sr. was head of the CIA and working together with Kissinger and Vernon Walters to develop Plan Condor--a coordinated operation against opposition movements throughout Latin America.[4] Plan Condor involved using illegal covert means such as the assassination team coordinated between the Chilean DIN security service and Miami Cuban terrorists like Orlando Bosch, Guillermo Novo and Luis Posada Carriles.[5] It also meant supporting brutal government policies of mass repression in countries throughout South America. Plan Condor was an ambitious and successful attempt to coordinate that repression.

There's my proof, take it our leave it.

And Islam as a religion does not explicitly say to kill all Westerners. It is just as violent as the Old Testament. The difference is that Islam is being used as a mechanism for control by the Middle Eastern Extremeists, who twist and turn Islam in order to further their own agenda.

On another note, we are despised throughout the globe. And I guess you could say it is because of our power, but only because we gained that power through less than legitimate means.
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Old 10-10-2006, 01:57 PM #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANSCOCKER
You honestly think the resentment in these areas is because we had a supposed puppet government? They hate us one, because they wish they had our power. Two, because their religion says they should hate us. Why do you think its our fualt. You have no proof to say that we had a puppet government, all that will ever be is conspiracy.
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Old 10-10-2006, 02:14 PM #67
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and for the fifty million dollar question.....name that leader!
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:05 PM #68
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Well he is a pseudo leader, the Supreme leader of Iran is Ayatollah Ali Khamenia, that is the president of Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:31 PM #69
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ding ding ding ding............we have a winner!
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Old 10-10-2006, 03:42 PM #70
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So what you're saying is that we should return to the whole raping, pilaging, and slave trade thing?
count me in! where do I sign up?
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Old 10-10-2006, 04:30 PM #71
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Fascism.
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Old 10-10-2006, 05:36 PM #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412

On another note, we are despised throughout the globe. And I guess you could say it is because of our power, but only because we gained that power through less than legitimate means.
Given that gaining power means you take it from someone else, I can't really think of any realitic legitimate way to gain it. That being said, I think power is pretty generally hated for it's own sake - to hell with how someone got it.
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Old 10-10-2006, 05:42 PM #73
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Originally Posted by SynTek
Given that gaining power means you take it from someone else, I can't really think of any realitic legitimate way to gain it. That being said, I think power is pretty generally hated for it's own sake - to hell with how someone got it.
Look at the way Japan has become one of the strongest economies in the world.
They achieved it through hard work and ingenuity, not abusing other nations for their natural resources.

I do agree though that power is generally resented, because everyone wants it, but only so many people can have it. But I feel like as a country we are hated more than we should be.
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Old 10-10-2006, 05:48 PM #74
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We gained power through illegitamate means. Which are what? I hardly consider half baked conspiracies about the mistreatment of Latin Americans a logical answer to why we have power. I cant even see the point in arguing with you. You obviously hate this country. You defend the people who hate us, and attempt to rationalize there hate for us. You try and point fingers at things that you have no proof of. I dont consider Wikapedia a legit source. Honsesty, just leave. America is obviously the bad guys, just leave.
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Old 10-10-2006, 05:56 PM #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412
Look at the way Japan has become one of the strongest economies in the world.
They achieved it through hard work and ingenuity, not abusing other nations for their natural resources.

I do agree though that power is generally resented, because everyone wants it, but only so many people can have it. But I feel like as a country we are hated more than we should be.

And committed genocide in the name of empire - just like everyone else who has any power. And to be fair we exploited our own resources first.
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Old 10-10-2006, 06:01 PM #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANSCOCKER
We gained power through illegitamate means. Which are what? I hardly consider half baked conspiracies about the mistreatment of Latin Americans a logical answer to why we have power. I cant even see the point in arguing with you. You obviously hate this country. You defend the people who hate us, and attempt to rationalize there hate for us. You try and point fingers at things that you have no proof of. I dont consider Wikapedia a legit source. Honsesty, just leave. America is obviously the bad guys, just leave.

While you have a decent opening point, you conclusion so silly as to be disregarded. Just because you HATE something doesn't mean you can't attempt to change it. Observing something is the first step towards changing it after all.
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Old 10-10-2006, 07:41 PM #77
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Originally Posted by ANSCOCKER
I dont consider Wikapedia a legit source.
You want legit, New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/library/world...cia-index.html
We took out a democratically elected official in Iran and installed a pro US dictator. There is no disputing it.

Quote:
I hardly consider half baked conspiracies about the mistreatment of Latin Americans a logical answer to why we have power.
And I never that is why we have power. But it was a way for us to increase it. And once again these are not half baked conspiracies: this isn't some JFK magic bullet or area 51. These are documented incidents, which you are choosing to ignore so your view of a perfect nation is not destroyed.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Plan_Condor

Quote:
Honsesty, just leave. America is obviously the bad guys, just leave.
Dissent is what founded this country and I am continuing this spirit. If you cannot accept that fact maybe it is you who should leave for Russia or some other authoritarian nation.


Quote:
We gained power through illegitamate means. Which are what? I cant even see the point in arguing with you. You obviously hate this country. You defend the people who hate us, and attempt to rationalize there hate for us. You try and point fingers at things that you have no proof of.
I don't hate this country in the least. I feel that some of our policies are and have been reprehensible, but I feel we can change and so long as there is hope for change in America I will always be grateful. I do not attempt to defend these people. I do not condone terrorists attacks or militant Islam. I may try to rationalize it, because we are taught that there is cause and effect for everything. Hatred does not spring from thin air. They have valid reasons to be upset with the US, not valid reasons to start a war, but still there is a historical basis for why we have this War on Terror on our hands today.
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Old 10-10-2006, 07:54 PM #78
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Originally Posted by SynTek
And committed genocide in the name of empire - just like everyone else who has any power. And to be fair we exploited our own resources first.
I know Japan committed genocide pre WWII, but since the end of WWII they have been a good example of my point.
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Old 10-10-2006, 08:10 PM #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412
I do not condone terrorists attacks or militant Islam. I may try to rationalize it, because we are taught that there is cause and effect for everything. Hatred does not spring from thin air. They have valid reasons to be upset with the US, not valid reasons to start a war, but still there is a historical basis for why we have this War on Terror on our hands today.
The Islamists justify this war based on their philosophy and their religion. Most of them really don't give a rat's *** that we put the Shah in power 50+ years ago. There's a reason we are called infidels. The truth of the matter is that Hollywierd is more responsible for this war than anything the CIA has ever done.

As far as "abusing other nations for their natural resources" is concerned, how are we doing that? By buying their oil?
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Old 10-10-2006, 08:18 PM #80
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Originally Posted by budseligsucks
It's actually pretty simple.

We can't reconcile our ideals with our history. Time and time again, we say one thing and do another. We canonize our founding fathers. We neglect to notice that masters used to be able to cast 3/5 of a vote per slave they owned. We neglect to notice our utter disregard of sovereign nations that used to inhabit the land we now live in. We participated in imperialism, in Cuba, the Philippines, and Hawaii, yet we forbade European powers from expanding in the Western Hemisphere with the Monroe Doctrine. Though we believed all men were created equal, we also believed in our own Manifest Destiny, and took on the 'burden' of showing savage Indians the light.

Thoughts?
Yeah, I see your point. **** Cuba.
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Old 10-10-2006, 08:19 PM #81
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I'm not sure I understand?


America's flaw is that they want to move forward?
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Old 10-10-2006, 08:27 PM #82
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Originally Posted by scumquat1
The Islamists justify this war based on their philosophy and their religion. Most of them really don't give a rat's *** that we put the Shah in power 50+ years ago. There's a reason we are called infidels. The truth of the matter is that Hollywierd is more responsible for this war than anything the CIA has ever done.

As far as "abusing other nations for their natural resources" is concerned, how are we doing that? By buying their oil?
A large reason why Osama is so Anti-American is how we abandoned Afghanistan after Russia pulled out.

Second question, I'll just point to the Iran Iraq war and how we sold weapons to both sides at inflated prices in order to get as much oil as possible. Perpetuating the war to procure more oil. There are plenty of other examples like how Coke abuses Indian land with hazardous dumping, not our government, but just an example http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05158/517150.stm

I'm not trying to proclaim the US as the Great Satan, but I would like to see a less cut throat foreign policy that isn't so centered on what we can get from a nation. One that revolves more around what we can do for each other. I know it wouldn't be the most beneficial thing economically, but I think it would have very positive political effects. Call me an idealist, but it's how I feel
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Old 10-11-2006, 05:48 AM #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412
A large reason why Osama is so Anti-American is how we abandoned Afghanistan after Russia pulled out.
So Osama got pissed at us because we didn't come into Afghan. and make it a big welfare state? That's strange, given that he's also pissed at us because we (the infidels) are in the holy land of Saudi Arabia. Looks like we can't win either way. How long 'til he claims downtown Manhattan for Islam?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412
Second question, I'll just point to the Iran Iraq war and how we sold weapons to both sides at inflated prices in order to get as much oil as possible. Perpetuating the war to procure more oil. There are plenty of other examples like how Coke abuses Indian land with hazardous dumping, not our government, but just an example http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05158/517150.stm
It seems fairly clear that a war between Iran and Iraq (that we didn't start) wouldn't help increase the world supply of oil. What it would do is occupy the attention of two countries, neither of which was very friendly toward us. Was that cynical? Probably, but the Jimmy Carter approach to world affairs isn't particularly effective.

As far as the Coke thing is concerned, I don't know anything about it. Nevertheless, the claims sound rather dubious, at best. I wonder if that guy is on Pepsi's payroll?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412
I'm not trying to proclaim the US as the Great Satan, but I would like to see a less cut throat foreign policy that isn't so centered on what we can get from a nation. One that revolves more around what we can do for each other. I know it wouldn't be the most beneficial thing economically, but I think it would have very positive political effects. Call me an idealist, but it's how I feel
I guess you have to decide what we are trying to accomplish with our foreign policy. IMO, our foreign policy should defend our interests and our security. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:54 AM #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scumquat1
So
Quote:
Osama got pissed at us because we didn't come into Afghan. and make it a big welfare state? That's strange, given that he's also pissed at us because we (the infidels) are in the holy land of Saudi Arabia. Looks like we can't win either way. How long 'til he claims downtown Manhattan for Islam?
I'm not even going to try to justify Osama, I'm just pointing out his hatred didn't spring from nothing.

Quote:
It seems fairly clear that a war between Iran and Iraq (that we didn't start) wouldn't help increase the world supply of oil. What it would do is occupy the attention of two countries, neither of which was very friendly toward us. Was that cynical? Probably, but the Jimmy Carter approach to world affairs isn't particularly effective.
I'm just pointing out that it is unscrupulous and that it built resentment. We both have a large difference in opinion regarding how our foreign policy is conducted.

Quote:
As far as the Coke thing is concerned, I don't know anything about it. Nevertheless, the claims sound rather dubious, at best. I wonder if that guy is on Pepsi's payroll?
It isn't and I'm, actually fairly certain that pepsi has been an offender as well. http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t...cid=1110202301

Quote:
I guess you have to decide what we are trying to accomplish with our foreign policy. IMO, our foreign policy should defend our interests and our security. Nothing more, nothing less.
Once again a difference in opinion. And I understand where you are coming from, but I feel that a foreign policy that is not always the best in short run will help to build a safer country in the long run.
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