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Old 10-06-2006, 06:04 PM #43
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and if we recognise, hows that going to change anything...
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Old 10-06-2006, 06:09 PM #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wango_Tango
qft

not our fault that most countries amount to nothing
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:44 PM #45
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^^^^^Finally a comment in ST politics that I agree with!
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Old 10-09-2006, 03:18 PM #46
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the true flaw of America is that Marxisim is now taught in schools!! Marxisim is what killed "The age of reason" That one thing is why this country is falling apart! Marxisim will never work cause He forgot one thing that everyone has: GREED
Even the Bible says that there will always be the rich & poor.
AND we are equal in GODS eyes ONLY. thats why it says we are CREATED equal. After that, we are not equal. some has more money, some more power, some better looking.
we have a constitutional republic type of government. one that keeps the stonger people from over thowing the weeker. in our constitution there are laws the the government has to live by. No other country has that.
So... no, the USA is not perfect, but its damn close!!!
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Old 10-09-2006, 03:50 PM #47
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Originally Posted by an94
in our constitution there are laws the the government has to live by. No other country has that.
We weren't even the first.
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Old 10-09-2006, 04:23 PM #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by budseligsucks
Hey guys, sorry I was away and unable to respond. However, I think the issue is that we don't really reconcile these facts with our ideals. The standard of patriotism in this country is to believe unquestioningly that America is the greatest nation on earth, and I think that's wrong. For example, Germany has done better reconciling its horrific past. Mein Kampf is available at every public library, and is unrestricted. German public schools teach the facts about the holocaust, yet when it comes to the Alamo, the common myth is that it was an event of patriotic Americans standing up for America that were killed by the ruthless Mexican army, when in fact we were far worse aggressors.

I'm not trying to make any big point here, I just think it's something we should think about. And I'm not trying to preach here, nor am I claiming this is my idea. I heard it on NPR first.

Also, note that the things that I said in my original post were examples. Of course there are countless other examples of Americans betraying their ideals, those are just the things that came to mind.

Wrong there. You cannot carry pro-Nazi material (Mein Kampf) in Germany. Atleast that's the stance in Bonn, Frankfurt, and Stuttgart.
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Old 10-09-2006, 05:04 PM #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by budseligsucks
It's actually pretty simple.

We can't reconcile our ideals with our history. Time and time again, we say one thing and do another. We canonize our founding fathers. We neglect to notice that masters used to be able to cast 3/5 of a vote per slave they owned. We neglect to notice our utter disregard of sovereign nations that used to inhabit the land we now live in. We participated in imperialism, in Cuba, the Philippines, and Hawaii, yet we forbade European powers from expanding in the Western Hemisphere with the Monroe Doctrine. Though we believed all men were created equal, we also believed in our own Manifest Destiny, and took on the 'burden' of showing savage Indians the light.

Thoughts?
Wow, you are so totaly lost, imperialism? Get a freaking grip, people who think like you are the basic flaw of this country.
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Old 10-09-2006, 05:22 PM #50
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Originally Posted by ANSCOCKER
Wow, you are so totaly lost, imperialism? Get a freaking grip, people who think like you are the basic flaw of this country.
Why because he is beginning to challenge what has been presented to him?
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It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized
discipline. But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion
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--Murray Rothbard
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Old 10-09-2006, 05:38 PM #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412
Why because he is beginning to challenge what has been presented to him?
Challenge what, he is making statements based on nothing. Why do you insist on
badmouthing the United States. Why are we the bad guy. Imperialism, you obviously dont understand what it is. If we are so bad, what country do you idolize. Who is doing it right. The truth is, the only problem with this country is people who are as clueless as you in power. Challenging what is presented to him, come on. Get a grip, of all the problems in the world he is worried about Hawaii. Get a clue.
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Old 10-09-2006, 05:53 PM #52
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Why do we go against our own ideals? Because we aren't ruled by a dictator. We are run by a representative democracy. One year we have democrats in office, and the next we'll have republicans. Differences in opinions result in differences in policy. Yes, some of our policies go against our traditional values, but what good is the government if it isn't allowed to make changes?

For instance, look at the issue of equality. Both major parties of the united states want equality. But many people still disagree on what equality really is. Does affirmative action promote equality or reverse racism? We can't agree on the answers to questions like those, which is why our policies are constantly changing.

Last edited by nyy : 10-09-2006 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:15 PM #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANSCOCKER
Challenge what, he is making statements based on nothing. Why do you insist on
badmouthing the United States. Why are we the bad guy. Imperialism, you obviously dont understand what it is. If we are so bad, what country do you idolize. Who is doing it right. The truth is, the only problem with this country is people who are as clueless as you in power. Challenging what is presented to him, come on. Get a grip, of all the problems in the world he is worried about Hawaii. Get a clue.
The original poster noted past inequities present in American history; acknowledging the fact that America's past actions have not always been righteous and moral.

America's foreign policy in the past and even today has been very selfish. Using and abusing other countries for what we "needed". Consequently many foreign nations dislike the US and see us as an imperial bully. We committed injustices against by Hawaii taking over their nation and taking away their sovereignty with no justification besides the fact that we wanted it.

Also I'm well aware of what Imperialism is, but are you aware of what could is called economic imperialism or maintaining a sphere of influence is? Because that is what the US does, usually through the installation of puppet governments.
also just a few notes,
I only once insulted the US in this thread and that was in regards to the Iran Contra Affair.
When asking questions use question marks; they look like this ?.
Also you asked the question who do I idolize as a nation? The answer is none. All nations have and sadly will continue to commit atrocities. But I would like to see the U.S. implement a foreign policy that could once again make us a golden city atop a hill.
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I can't believe how strange it is to be anything at all
It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized
discipline. But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion
on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.
--Murray Rothbard

Last edited by Adema3412 : 10-09-2006 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:51 PM #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by budseligsucks
It's actually pretty simple.

We participated in imperialism, in Cuba, the Philippines, and Hawaii, yet we forbade European powers from expanding in the Western Hemisphere with the Monroe Doctrine.

Thoughts?
If that Monroe Doctrine wasn't created, what do you think would have happened? There probably would be so many battles on the western hemisphere. We did what we needed to do to stay out of conflict and keep conflict out of the western hemisphere. I saw to the Monroe Doctine.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:40 PM #55
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Originally Posted by WindowLicker
If that Monroe Doctrine wasn't created, what do you think would have happened? There probably would be so many battles on the western hemisphere. We did what we needed to do to stay out of conflict and keep conflict out of the western hemisphere. I saw to the Monroe Doctine.
The Monroe Doctorine was complete bull****, there is no way the US could have backed up their claims had any imperial power of the times tested it. However, Europe was doing some infighting during this time and by the time all that was done the US had some legit strength and could back of their claims.
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I can't believe how strange it is to be anything at all
It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized
discipline. But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion
on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.
--Murray Rothbard

Last edited by Adema3412 : 10-09-2006 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:46 PM #56
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as with most countries and nations, our ideals apply to those in power, not everyone else. it's part of our culture.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:53 PM #57
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Originally Posted by BunkerNinja
Don't forget Japanese internment. They never teach that one in school....
this is all our book says about that. "after the bombing of pearl harbor president FDR had many Japanesse americans put into internment camps for fear of them helping in future attacks. However most of them were 2nd generation japanesse americans with no ties to japan. they were release after the war."
thats all it said about one of the darkest things we did in the 20th century.
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that doesn't make sense you ****ing inbred, you're either smoking hot or you are not smoking hot.
that's like saying your pet is kind-of a dog.
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:20 PM #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412
The Monroe Doctorine was complete bull****, there is no way the US could have backed up their claims had any imperial power of the times tested it. However, Europe was doing some infighting during this time and by the time all that was done the US had some legit strength and could back of their claims.
You are absolutley right about that but the Monroe Doctrine did have the support of Great Britain at the time. Great Britain was one of the major powers that could some what back this up.
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:16 PM #59
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Americas true flaw(pick one)...1.not closing our borders fast enough, 2. giving millions of dollars in aid to people that hate us or want us dead, and 3. joining the UN in the first place.
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:45 PM #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by budseligsucks
It's actually pretty simple.

We can't reconcile our ideals with our history. Time and time again, we say one thing and do another. We canonize our founding fathers. We neglect to notice that masters used to be able to cast 3/5 of a vote per slave they owned. We neglect to notice our utter disregard of sovereign nations that used to inhabit the land we now live in. We participated in imperialism, in Cuba, the Philippines, and Hawaii, yet we forbade European powers from expanding in the Western Hemisphere with the Monroe Doctrine. Though we believed all men were created equal, we also believed in our own Manifest Destiny, and took on the 'burden' of showing savage Indians the light.

Thoughts?
Yeah I have a thought. Who cares?
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:57 PM #61
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Looks like budseligsucks just finished chapter 4 of us history 101.
Though I can't see where anyone neglected to notice the injustices of 3/5ths compromise.
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:01 PM #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adema3412
The original poster noted past inequities present in American history; acknowledging the fact that America's past actions have not always been righteous and moral.

America's foreign policy in the past and even today has been very selfish. Using and abusing other countries for what we "needed". Consequently many foreign nations dislike the US and see us as an imperial bully. We committed injustices against by Hawaii taking over their nation and taking away their sovereignty with no justification besides the fact that we wanted it.

Also I'm well aware of what Imperialism is, but are you aware of what could is called economic imperialism or maintaining a sphere of influence is? Because that is what the US does, usually through the installation of puppet governments.
also just a few notes,
I only once insulted the US in this thread and that was in regards to the Iran Contra Affair.
When asking questions use question marks; they look like this ?.
Also you asked the question who do I idolize as a nation? The answer is none. All nations have and sadly will continue to commit atrocities. But I would like to see the U.S. implement a foreign policy that could once again make us a golden city atop a hill.
Wow, so basically you dont have a country you like. Amazing the world isnt perfect. Who would have thought it? Now where are you getting the idea that the US has been unjust to anybody. We are by far the most generous country in the world. We are hated because other countries covet what we have. If we were as evil and manupulative as you make us out to be, we would simply take over these other countries we have supposedly mistreated. Why is it always about conspiracy to you liberals? Why cant things just be what they are?
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:22 PM #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANSCOCKER
Wow, so basically you dont have a country you like. Amazing the world isnt perfect. Who would have thought it? Now where are you getting the idea that the US has been unjust to anybody. We are by far the most generous country in the world. We are hated because other countries covet what we have. If we were as evil and manupulative as you make us out to be, we would simply take over these other countries we have supposedly mistreated. Why is it always about conspiracy to you liberals? Why cant things just be what they are?
I like many countries, but you said idolize. There is no perfect nation, but every nation especially the US has both good and bad aspects/traits. There are plenty of things the US has done to help the world, but we have also had a large negative impact on it.

Well according to this GDP versus Amount donated to the Tsunami we are not the most generous nation out there.
Edit: forgot the link http://www.nakagawa.ca/ascorbic/tsunami/

We don't/didn't take over countries entirely, because it would take too much effort. We don't need them for the land and people we merely need them for their economic resources. An example of this would be Iran. When they decided to nationalize their oil industry in 1953. The US alongside the British helped create a coup and install a puppet dictatorship, which was favorable to US and British interests rather than that of the Iranian people. And we wonder why there is resentment towards the US in these areas.

It is not a conspiracy if it actually happened. Why do you choose to ignore history?
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I can't believe how strange it is to be anything at all
It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized
discipline. But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion
on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.
--Murray Rothbard

Last edited by Adema3412 : 10-10-2006 at 02:02 PM.
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