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Old 09-28-2006, 04:28 PM #22
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Thats exactly what jack claims, a flatter trajectory. He never said higher. I'm gonna test this when I play this weekend, because it got me thinking. Now that I think about it, I don't see why it wouldn't, but I do see why it wouldn't be so extreme. If the sweep does add spin, it's not nearly enough to do what a flatline does, so it'd be much less noticeable. After talking to a few other alien owners, they said they noticed it a bit. So I'm definatelly gonna test that.
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Old 09-28-2006, 04:38 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Acacia
The truth still remains that the gun is still solid, even if the sweep technology is complete and utter bs. It's small, light, fast, efficent. Thats why I bought it. I didn't even know what sweep technology was till about 3 months after I started looking into aliens. To some people, yes, it is a selling point, but to others, theres more to it than just the sweep technology.
They are solid guns and good shooters. No offense intended towards jack rice... but I feel their consistency and speed leads to the range and trajectory often associated with the sweep hype. Consistency is the marker's largest contribution towards accuracy and trajectory. Other than that buy a good barrel and paintballs. Past that, every high end is effectively equal.

So I guess the final is... alien or viking, don't buy the bs/hype of either. Try both and make your own mind up. Personally, I feel more comfortable with some mass in mass in my hands.
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Old 09-28-2006, 04:45 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Acacia
Thats exactly what jack claims, a flatter trajectory. He never said higher. I'm gonna test this when I play this weekend, because it got me thinking. Now that I think about it, I don't see why it wouldn't, but I do see why it wouldn't be so extreme. If the sweep does add spin, it's not nearly enough to do what a flatline does, so it'd be much less noticeable. After talking to a few other alien owners, they said they noticed it a bit. So I'm definatelly gonna test that.
every projectile follows a near-parabolic path unless aerodynamics impart directional forces. An upward force must exist to flatten the trajectory. If you rotate the gun and these forces do not pull the ball left or right... then the forces never existed. It's not like the gun chooses when to spin a ball up or sideways.

As far as owners noticing a flatter trajectory (in equal circumstances hopefully)... I think that's thier wallet talking or their misconception of a consistent marker allowing them to fire more effectively.
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Old 09-28-2006, 04:49 PM #25
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I do notice a sideways curve when tilting the gun under certain conditions. I became certain of this a few weeks ago when I accidentally used my .692 bore with small bore (ultra evil) paint. The marker shot fantastically straight and flat when held vertically or nearly vertically. However, at greater angles of tilt, such as when I'm in the snake and I can't quite keep my hopper tucked in (noob, I know), I definately noticed the balls curving away from me, in the direction of my hopper. I don't think this is an effect of a poor bore match either, because they shot very well when the marker is upright. This agrees with the suggestion that the sweep effect is more pronounced with a large barrel bore, rolling against the top of the barrel and producing a backspin effect.

With properly matched paint, or a slightly oversized barrel, I observe no sideways curving. I do think the sweep effect still works with this match, even at different angles, although I admit its possible that this is the placebo effect.
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Old 09-28-2006, 11:29 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Rice
NO! You’re equating to Flatline. Alien puts a rotational direction on the ball to make it more consistent, not to make it move upwards. The backturn has the added benefit of working against gravity to give a somewhat longer shot but it doesn't rise during the shot.
This is one of the biggest loads I have read lately. So, let me get this straight. Giving the ball "rotational direction" lets it work against gravity, and yet the ball isn't rising? Giving the ball aerodynamic lift is the ONLY way you are going to be able to produce a flatter trajectory, OTHER than increased velocity. This statement is so ludicrous it boggles the mind.

The fact that this gun hasn't been sent for an independant test should say something. Using magazine reviews, especially in the paintball rags (rags being the kindest word I could find), as the basis of proof is a joke. Can't afford to load a gun for testing, but can afford to give guns to sponsored teams? Please.

AKA made the mistake of hyping the low pressure aspect of their guns in the beginning, and frankly made some rather idiotic comments in support of this position. At least they grew up and realized that spewing claims that had no basis in reality wasn't necessary if you had a quality product. Based upon user comments, it seems that Alien does, in fact, make a quality product. Maybe it's time for them to grow up.

Oh, and one more thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Acacia
I do believe there are things in the world that can't be explained by physics or science. We went through all this in the debate about sweep technology thread. Though most of us would like to see scientific tests, even I would, there are said cases where you can't explain something, one way or another.
You have got to be kidding me. So, we can send men to the moon, harness the power of the atom, explore quantum physics using particle accelerators, build nano machines, etc etc, and yet we can't explain the physics of Jack Rice's sweep valve? Nice try, but I'm betting that science might somehow, possibly, be able to figure that one out. Unless it is indeed magical...
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Old 09-29-2006, 01:07 AM #27
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6061

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pnuemagger
the marker cannot have a act on trajectory without imparting a good deal of spin... and then it cannot selectively spin a ball. Even if the alien could impart perfect spin on the ball to only flatten (and not raise) the trajectory... it would still curve left or right when tilted due to the fact that the counteractive gravitational force now has a different vector in relation to the gun's "up"
This is so great, always those who haven’t tired it saying it can't work. Again, put your pen back in you pocket protector and shoot the gun. I personally hold my gun vertical but in a effort to over rationalize things you now have the gun sideways. We are talking about the best way to shoot a paintball here. Shoot the gun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pnuemagger
The most consistent spin (with a perfect sphere) is no spin.
So wrong! The worst spin is a knuckleball in baseball because it has no spin and it picks up rotation randomly. In paintball, we are talking about the best paintball shot; the best spin is backspin. I have stated several times that when you put the bolt and valve in a blowback with higher pressure - twice as high - players sometimes ask if the ball rises. So at twice the pressure the back turn does affect the shot negatively - somewhat – in relation to the flatness but at 200 to 300 psi the effect is that it makes for a little flatter shot- not dropping as quickly. The point is that the shot is narrower because it has the opposite of the knuckleball shot. The shot is about as high and low as other markers shots. The good thing is it has a oval or oblong shot and that puts the balls closer together overall.
You want independent test great, contact me at the website and tell me what you've got set up. If it is truly a third party test I'll send a gun!
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Old 09-29-2006, 01:47 AM #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Rice
6061

This is so great, always those who haven’t tired it saying it can't work. Again, put your pen back in you pocket protector and shoot the gun. I personally hold my gun vertical but in a effort to over rationalize things you now have the gun sideways. We are talking about the best way to shoot a paintball here. Shoot the gun. So wrong! The worst spin is a knuckleball in baseball because it has no spin and it picks up rotation randomly. In paintball, we are talking about the best paintball shot; the best spin is backspin. I have stated several times that when you put the bolt and valve in a blowback with higher pressure - twice as high - players sometimes ask if the ball rises. So at twice the pressure the back turn does affect the shot negatively - somewhat – in relation to the flatness but at 200 to 300 psi the effect is that it makes for a little flatter shot- not dropping as quickly. The point is that the shot is narrower because it has the opposite of the knuckleball shot. The shot is about as high and low as other markers shots. The good thing is it has a oval or oblong shot and that puts the balls closer together overall.
You want independent test great, contact me at the website and tell me what you've got set up. If it is truly a third party test I'll send a gun!
Most players (tourney players) nowadays dont shoot the gun straight vertical. When snap shooting you need to have the hopper tilted in to create a smaller target. Also, earlier you said that your sweep system didnt make the ball curve to the side when tilted, why the change?
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Old 09-29-2006, 02:00 AM #29
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http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1770338

Notice in this thread that the player is saying he isn't getting the same shot others are getting and I ask him about how loose the bolt is. If the bolt has an extra 6 or 8 thousands of an inch of play over 3 and a half inches of bolt the shot benefit will be almost gone. The width of a hair on each side of the bolt!

If he indeed has too narrow a bolt and by using the correct bolt he gets the shot others have, then what?

It's not magic, true but to get the better shot takes a vary narrow set of circumstances. I stumbled upon this when make a pivoting, side actuating gun. It took me a couple of years to work it out. If the only way to make sense of it for some is to call it hype, then that is what some will do. After 4 years of doing this I can say it works. It's not hype. If you choose to believe it is hype OK, but what if he changes bolts and the bolts seem to be almost the same, can't tell them apart with the naked eye, even hard to tell the difference in the gun - but the one that's just a bit tighter shoots the much improved pattern.
Probably just a second cousin of mine and we set it up this way as part of the hype, right?
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Old 09-29-2006, 03:24 AM #30
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just meet them in lodi, ill bring my viking, you bring the ceptor, and we'll crush the debate. jack's a stand up guy, plays decent ball, and is pretty cool to talk to. so meet in neutral grounds, and like jack is saying, shoot the damn gun. put all physics and magic....we'll call it phagic......to the side. just shoot her. like john holmes once said," put this in yer hands" and shoot the damn things. saturday, enemy territory, lodi, ca.
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Old 09-29-2006, 04:49 AM #31
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XPSL this weekend, I have guns to shoot.
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Old 09-29-2006, 10:18 AM #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Rice
6061

This is so great, always those who haven’t tired it saying it can't work. Again, put your pen back in you pocket protector and shoot the gun. I personally hold my gun vertical but in a effort to over rationalize things you now have the gun sideways. We are talking about the best way to shoot a paintball here. Shoot the gun. So wrong! The worst spin is a knuckleball in baseball because it has no spin and it picks up rotation randomly. In paintball, we are talking about the best paintball shot; the best spin is backspin. I have stated several times that when you put the bolt and valve in a blowback with higher pressure - twice as high - players sometimes ask if the ball rises. So at twice the pressure the back turn does affect the shot negatively - somewhat – in relation to the flatness but at 200 to 300 psi the effect is that it makes for a little flatter shot- not dropping as quickly. The point is that the shot is narrower because it has the opposite of the knuckleball shot. The shot is about as high and low as other markers shots. The good thing is it has a oval or oblong shot and that puts the balls closer together overall.
You want independent test great, contact me at the website and tell me what you've got set up. If it is truly a third party test I'll send a gun!
actually no jack a knuckleball is in baseball, and a baseball has seams.....and as a matter of fact, knuckleballs in baseball break because they are thrown so slow that there is enough drag created to cause it to change direction. IMO it doesnt really dance all that much, its more of an illusion because of the seams and the tumbling of it.

in paintball a knuckleball is ideal. That creates LESS spin, and an ideal trajetory that follows the laws of physics. Thats what ppl are discussing here. You are claiming the gun defies the laws of gravitation force pulling it down by spin.....which would HAVE to create a force that opposes gravity or else the ball will fly in a same parabolic arch as ANY projectile.

I hate it when ppl start calling you a know it all and you have no idea what you talking about when you discuss physics of trajectory. Actually though, its the ppl that DONT know that pretend "dumb is cool". They get all defensive.

A ball CANNOT travel further w/o an opposing force to gravity, yet you are bouncing all over the place w/ your argument and explaination.

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Old 09-29-2006, 11:59 AM #33
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For the last time, jack never claimed that his gun shot further. That is not what the sweep system was designed for. It makes a more vertical shot pattern. Why do you keep bringing up the distance arguement?
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Old 09-29-2006, 12:39 PM #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Acacia
For the last time, jack never claimed that his gun shot further. That is not what the sweep system was designed for. It makes a more vertical shot pattern. Why do you keep bringing up the distance arguement?
So, it produces less horizontal dispersion? How, pray tell, does it do that? I swear, the Alien die-hards keep flogging the merits of the sweep valve and "vertical shot pattern" yet do NOTHING to prove it. Want to shut up the doubters and the haters? Then make a video. What's it going to cost, a few boxes of paint and some air?

Oh, and as for your comment about Jack not claiming his gun shot farther. Let me quote Jack AGAIN. I added the bold so the relevant statement sticks out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Rice
NO! You’re equating to Flatline. Alien puts a rotational direction on the ball to make it more consistent, not to make it move upwards. The backturn has the added benefit of working against gravity to give a somewhat longer shot but it doesn't rise during the shot.
Now, what was that about Jack never claiming his gun shot farther? Better do some research before you make an argument.
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Old 09-29-2006, 12:48 PM #35
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its amazing what ppl dont see....until you bold it. . Seriously I just took a training course on writing documents and you would be suprised how much ppl actually read. If you want them not to see it.....stick it in the middle of the second paragraph. lol.....

These guys dont know Jack.... pun intended.

you know whats funny? To have a MORE vertical shot pattern, it has to shoot further. Unless its making a 90 degree turn at the end of its trajectory. Dont tell me the sweep makes it do that as well.
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Old 09-29-2006, 01:15 PM #36
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I may be wrong, but I believe the intent is not to impart a MORE vertical shot pattern, but rather lessen the horizontal shot pattern.

By the way, if you guys want to argue the Sweep System, can you just bring back the old thread - this is a "Vs." thread, and was going fairly well until this whole debate, which I am personally bored with as the same points are brought up as the last one and are repeated several times...

EDIT: to this post ^^
I'm fairly sure everyone at least saw it, but people are more intent on arguing what they believe rather than contributing to a Vs. thread.
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Old 09-29-2006, 01:33 PM #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rea[P]er
I may be wrong, but I believe the intent is not to impart a MORE vertical shot pattern, but rather lessen the horizontal shot pattern.

By the way, if you guys want to argue the Sweep System, can you just bring back the old thread - this is a "Vs." thread, and was going fairly well until this whole debate, which I am personally bored with as the same points are brought up as the last one and are repeated several times...

EDIT: to this post ^^
I'm fairly sure everyone at least saw it, but people are more intent on arguing what they believe rather than contributing to a Vs. thread.
we arent the ones that brought it up. IIRC Jack and some other dude started bragging about the accuracy like its leaps and bounds better than a viking. "hitting a barrel sticking up at the 50 from back center", or "3 inch diameter grouping from 50-75ft away". We didnt just butt in and say..."the sweep is crap", but it seems thats the selling point of the gun and I find it very HYPE-ISH.

Hey, if you believe it shoots flat or "more veritical"......Im glad you see it that way. That doesnt mean the gun actually does. It just means that is what you are seeing. You would be suprised what ppl believe and will do if you convince them........its like a lie detector test.....if you believe you will be caught in a lie....you fail..... You can actually be telling many lies and pass one.
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Old 09-29-2006, 01:40 PM #38
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Originally Posted by yakitori
we arent the ones that brought it up. IIRC Jack and some other dude started bragging about the accuracy like its leaps and bounds better than a viking. "hitting a barrel sticking up at the 50 from back center", or "3 inch diameter grouping from 50-75ft away". We didnt just butt in and say..."the sweep is crap", but it seems thats the selling point of the gun and I find it very HYPE-ISH.

Hey, if you believe it shoots flat or "more veritical"......Im glad you see it that way. That doesnt mean the gun actually does. It just means that is what you are seeing. You would be suprised what ppl believe and will do if you convince them........its like a lie detector test.....if you believe you will be caught in a lie....you fail..... You can actually be telling many lies and pass one.
Actually I don't believe either way that the sweep works - personally I don't care (no offense Jack, still a great marker), and I realize that you guys didn't just randomly come here and say "Alien is crap, the sweep sucks" etc. but this is still suppose to be a Vs. thread, not a Sweep Debate thread.

Anyway, that's my 0.02$, so later guys, enjoy the rest of this thread I guess?..
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Old 09-29-2006, 03:38 PM #39
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Sweep Trajectory Debate...cleanup from vs. Viking thread

The Viking vs. Alien thread turned into yet another discussion about the sweep system. Rluna made the suggestion that somebody make a new thread in which to place the off-topic threads. Well, here it is.

The original thread can be found here:
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1458872
Please do not make off-topic posts there, we must preserve the spirit of a proper vs. thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rluna
Somebody create a new thread like today/tomorrow morning and I will move the "off-topic" stuff to that thread for you so you can continue this branch of your disussion.... title it like, i dunno, something like "trajectory discussion" or whatever, just let me know else when i get to this thread again I'm gonna do some trimming....
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Old 09-29-2006, 06:08 PM #40
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Yes, I'd hate to interfere with Jack selling his markers. Let's make sure that he can say whatever he wants in the vs. threads, and all the contrary viepoints are removed.
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Old 09-29-2006, 06:11 PM #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pnuemagger
every projectile follows a near-parabolic path unless aerodynamics impart directional forces. An upward force must exist to flatten the trajectory. If you rotate the gun and these forces do not pull the ball left or right... then the forces never existed. It's not like the gun chooses when to spin a ball up or sideways.

As far as owners noticing a flatter trajectory (in equal circumstances hopefully)... I think that's thier wallet talking or their misconception of a consistent marker allowing them to fire more effectively.

i am not disagreeing with that, it all makes sense. im confused about this: why then do timmy's have much more of a "lob" style shot to their trajectory then most other guns?
I have to aim a wee bit higher with my timmy to get a good lane on a player running to an opposing back corner from my back center than i do with my friends freestyle, and my brothers 05 interceptor when they are all shooting right around the same fps. What is the variable that causes this to happen, and could the sweep system be somehow reversing this variable?
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Old 09-29-2006, 06:13 PM #42
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I have played with the gun, and do believe it, but i cannot explain why the shot doesn't seem to tilt when the gun is tilted. To those simply talking about the distance and how it can not travel farther, it is possible for it to travel farther. The air under the ball would create a slight upwards force, not canceling but reducing the Earth's pull of 33.2ft/s^2. It is not the same as a golf balls increased range, because it does not change the drag coefficent, but it creates an upward force. Thats just an example of anyone who may say Xf=X0+V0*T+.5*G*T^2.
The only possible reason I could think of for it to have increased accuracy would be because of a more uniform spin. A normal shot could create more random spin causing the ball to create a force to the left or the right. The back spin could cause less difference in the spin causing the force caused by the paintball moving through the air to be more equal.
Not fact, but my best guess.
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