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Old 09-27-2006, 02:02 AM #1
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Sweep Trajectory Debate...cleanup from vs. Viking thread

[EDIT]sorry, moved this post to this thread instead of deleting, can't delete it without deleting the thread, so... there you go. Back to the in-progress discussion - rluna[/EDIT]
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Last edited by rluna : 09-29-2006 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 09-27-2006, 11:21 AM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ih8imps
And theres no way he's shooting over a case off a 68/45 with the alien....
Ok they guy may have exaggerated on the 3 inches thing. However my son has told me many times about... (hitting a barrel sticking up in the fifty from the back center is his current one) when he wouldn’t have taken the shot and chased the guy in with another gun. The accuracy of the alien is compelling to those who have gotten used to it.

Many people tell me they get 1500 shot off a 68/45 and some say 1700. Timing is right, full fill and he maybe gets just a bit more. Nobody says anything when some one who doesn't own a Alien says they shot one (or two) and the accuracy is bad or efficiency isn't as good as... but let one guy who does own one say just a bit too much and "some" get way too emotionally involved.
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Old 09-27-2006, 11:36 AM #3
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oh dear god....not this crap again.

keep your damned alien....youre not worthy of a milled viking. I would never own an alien because of the marketing hype behind the sweep bolt / valve trajectory crap. Its the biggest nonsense. The guy (jack), cant even make a good point about how it effects trajectory other than....."shoot one and see", or "hes an alien owner, so he must be right or know what hes talking about"......gimme a break.

about 90 percent of paintballers havent the slightest clue. Why would I take someones word for a 800+ dollar purchase when there is no basis for the sweep arguement.

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Old 09-27-2006, 12:22 PM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakitori
no basis for the sweep arguement.
There have been several magazine reviews that have stated that they too noticed the improved trajectory. Hype, as you describe it, is new and better to others.
Yes 'shoot one and see' I think is the best point and those that have the most experience with something are the best judges. Ignorance is too often arrogance that tries to mask itself as intelligence. I say try it before you decide. Yet I get why should I spend… You certainly don’t have to. Many have and most tell me “thanks, keep up the good work”. That’s not hype, that is what happens. I have had a few problems and most times I fix them quickly and get the same 'thanks, keep up…' A few times I read online that someone went away mad. However one thing is certain, the real adamant ones, those who say it is all “crap” or it's not new (cooper T) are those that have never owned the guns.
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Old 09-27-2006, 12:48 PM #5
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well then jack.....all it would take is for you to send one of your guns to an independent third party that would be willing to carry out a scientific comparison between your valve and the other popular guns on the market, and see if there truly is improved range or shot grouping compared to any other high end gun on the market. Yet you are not just saying......it seems to have better accuracy or improved, further, flatter trajectory.....but you are STATING it like its the uncontested truth, yet have no science or evidence to make such a claim. Thats why its marketing hype. Whether its true or not....its hype.

who cares what a magazine says......should I read what vanity fair says about a new skin product and take it as factual, accurate, and truthful? same w/ a paintball magazine. Its one persons opinion and review w/o any testing....its just a friggen testimonial......nothing more.

Look.....its the way the business world works.... A company creates a new drug and claims it to "drastically improve the healing process". Other companies and ppl that want to see results of trials done and evidence to back their claim. Why should the consumer be the one to put the product to test?

According to that....basically what you are telling me is......your guns are like the herbal drugs that have not been fda approved or evaluated.....and....it just works?

Im not buying it.

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Old 09-27-2006, 01:58 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakitori
Look.....its the way the business world works.... A company creates a new drug and claims it to "drastically improve the healing process". Other companies and ppl that want to see results of trials done and evidence to back their claim. Why should the consumer be the one to put the product to test?

According to that....basically what you are telling me is......your guns are like the herbal drugs that have not been fda approved or evaluated.....and....it just works?

Im not buying it.

Or in your case, you love what you have so much and its proven itself to you. You don't want to believe anything is better than what you have. Stop hating and get a life. You are the same type person that bought the hype of the aka regs when they showed you a graph of their recharge rate lol. Go shoot a remains or interceptor, and not just a hopper, I mean games and then make a decision. I am tired of people that complain about things they have not fully experienced. I could shoot a spider and I would still have a great time playing.
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:01 PM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakitori
all it would take is for you to send one of your guns to an independent third party that would be willing to carry out a scientific...
Im not buying it....
OK don't buy it. Some do, some don't, some will and it will take a little longer for others.
As far as the third party... I have always been willing... but I'm not willing to pay for it when the doubters will say "yea he paid for it and they told him what he paid for" Gov't testing still gets recalled and everyone that doesn't agree with you isn't as mindless as 50 year old dyed blonde reading a fashion magazine. Here's an idea. Get the gun and shoot it! Unless that doesn't count with you. Your own opinions can be trusted without a guy in a lab coat telling you its OK.

Just read post above me, makesm ine kind of unnecessary - oh well -
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:13 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sangerpb
Or in your case, you love what you have so much and its proven itself to you. You don't want to believe anything is better than what you have. Stop hating and get a life. You are the same type person that bought the hype of the aka regs when they showed you a graph of their recharge rate lol. Go shoot a remains or interceptor, and not just a hopper, I mean games and then make a decision. I am tired of people that complain about things they have not fully experienced. I could shoot a spider and I would still have a great time playing.

oh ya....I went and bought a viking just because of the AKA reg. Dude....I had a viking long before that retarted graph even was release so stfu. I sold my old viking, bought a DM4, since then have owned, a PM6, DMC w/ UL frame.....shot countless timmys, egos, angels...etc.....of which I am not fond of them. Then I owned a karnivor....and went all the way back around the block to AKA because I like how they shoot better than any of the other hyped junk I just listed.

Its not that I dont believe anything is better, but I disbelieve that any gun can defy the laws of physics by the way the air is dispersed to the ball. And as has been said before....the sweep bolt is no the first bolt ever designed to put backspin on a ball. Which it doesnt. Ive read an article on the remains in a mag.....and wasnt at all convinced w/ the "scientific" explaination that was provided. It says something to the effect that the sweep bolt and valve deliver air to the bottomside of the ball and it "glides" along the top of the barrel and gives it a flatter trajectory and shoots further. I chuckled a little.

And jack, im not saying send a gun to someone for good, but just for testing, upon which will be returned to you on completion. Your guns dont cost near as much to produce as they do sell for retail.....dont act like you havent made enough money to cover 1 gun to back what your claiming.

Im not making the claims.......you are.
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:16 PM #9
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Oh god, not this again. I suggest this conversation be moved elsewhere (new thread, PMs, etc.) to avoid getting a precious vs. thread closed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baldusi
But, as I have a 04 Vik with a Tadao board, MM and 2L, my main marker is a 05 Alien.
Now that testimony could sell a lot more markers than "hype" about the sweep system. I think the word-of-mouth approach is working well for Alien!
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:39 PM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exit Wounds
Oh god, not this again. I suggest this conversation be moved elsewhere (new thread, PMs, etc.) to avoid getting a precious vs. thread closed.



Now that testimony could sell a lot more markers than "hype" about the sweep system. I think the word-of-mouth approach is working well for Alien!

or your sig.
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Old 09-27-2006, 07:48 PM #11
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^^

pnu

How fast do you shoot your gun? 12-18bps??? or slower? That is how fast your gun is. Never argue how fast a gun is by quoting CPS, come to the table wtih BPS or don't argue at all. I agree on the lemons part, my DM3 new out of the box was DOA.
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Old 09-27-2006, 08:17 PM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pnuemagger
Jack, you give your insight too much credit. I made no comment on the alien's operation...
Yet you change you change now to all double stacked guns.

The Alien is lighter and smaller than most anything out there, Double stacked or single stacked. PB2X magazine, at last years cup event, showed pictures of a P T Crusier driveing over it 3 time and then parked on it for 20 minutes and it performed perfectly afterwords. NOT the same feel as everthing else out there! The feel is small, light and strong.

I know why I'm so invested in this, what I wonder is why some of you are so devoted to stating that a gun that hasn't been made in a couple of years is the best gun somebody can get. Plus you willingness, almost eargeness, to insult those who don't agree with you.
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Old 09-28-2006, 10:23 AM #13
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can someone post a video of a remains or cepters wicked far and flat trajectory?

And to ^^ that post. lol....strength to weight ratio....hahahahaaha....Its still aluminum. It still has the same density as any other aluminum gun.

I would like to shoot a remains....anyone in the DFW area have one I can shoot?
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Old 09-28-2006, 01:43 PM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pnuemagger
And Jack... if i were to tilt an alien gun left or right, would it shoot respective left and right "curveballs" so to speak?
No, it doesn't. I know that it does on flatlines, but it doesn't in aliens.
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Old 09-28-2006, 02:35 PM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Acacia
No, it doesn't. I know that it does on flatlines, but it doesn't in aliens.
If the alien was spinning a ball in the slightest way to hold a flat trajectory then it would have an effect on the left/right curve when tilted. So if your claiming the alien is imparting no relative upward spin on a ball... then how does it shoot a flatter longer trajectory?

There are 3 possible solutions:
1) Gravity obviously has a different reaction with projectiles fired from an Alien

2) Some mysterious force acts on the ball once it has been released from the marker and it well on it's way to the target

3) It's marketing hype and buzzword advertising to fool consumers. It is no more accurate than any other high end gun given the same barrel and paintball fit.
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Old 09-28-2006, 02:56 PM #16
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I do believe there are things in the world that can't be explained by physics or science. We went through all this in the debate about sweep technology thread. Though most of us would like to see scientific tests, even I would, there are said cases where you can't explain something, one way or another.

I really need to find someone with a video camera, so we can make a video and put all this nonsense to an end.
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"Originally posted by XSVterror16 V.4: Alright, let me break this down for you. Subaru is a company with stars and a blue background in it's symbol. The national color of Australia is blue and their nights have lots of stars in the sky. Subaru uses bockster motors from Porches. Subaru is Australian and uses Porche motors in their cars. Understand?"
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Old 09-28-2006, 02:59 PM #17
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I think Ill go w/ #3 simply because of the explaination Ive read about the sweep valve and bolt in the magazine that someone did a review of it in. PB2X. They explained it as the air lifting the ball and spinning it down the top of the barrel more or less.....which would create backspin. The air passage in the bolt itself looks like an attempt to create backspin.

Yet.....its only "enough" backspin to give you further trajectory? The flatline puts A LOT of backspin and only shoots 50-100ft further....if that...

So ANY backspin would create lift on the ball because a paintball is only 3 grams. So if its only "enough" backspin to make it shoot further.....then how much further does it shoot? 10 feet.


And I actually think its funny that jack wont donate a gun to a test cause, but will let pb2x run over one w/ a pt cruiser......lol... good one.
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Old 09-28-2006, 03:01 PM #18
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jack wasn't going for distance with the sweep valve/bolt. He found it to have a flatter trajectory. Yes, it more than likely adds some distance, but again, it wasn't his goal to do so.
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"Originally posted by XSVterror16 V.4: Alright, let me break this down for you. Subaru is a company with stars and a blue background in it's symbol. The national color of Australia is blue and their nights have lots of stars in the sky. Subaru uses bockster motors from Porches. Subaru is Australian and uses Porche motors in their cars. Understand?"
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Old 09-28-2006, 03:13 PM #19
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Quote:
I do believe there are things in the world that can't be explained by physics or science.
As do I sir, as do I. However, simple projectile motion and aerdynamacy do not fall anywhere remotely close to this unknown region (I work for lockheed martin as an aerospace and LTA test engineer )

AGD (aka "perfect circle tech") used to do paintball and spherical projectile test for the military in the 90's... there are certainly analytical as well as empirical methods for proving jack woods statements about sweep trajectory. And until it is PROVEN that it does indeed increase range and decrease trajectory, there is no need to test why.

I think all the paintball community really needs to know is that its more than hype... and alien paintball would benefit dramatically. In paintball, a sport that uses a great deal of technology, it's very easy to throw out buzzwords, tech jargon, and misleading stats/numbers that can dupe people.
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Old 09-28-2006, 03:17 PM #20
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The truth still remains that the gun is still solid, even if the sweep technology is complete and utter bs. It's small, light, fast, efficent. Thats why I bought it. I didn't even know what sweep technology was till about 3 months after I started looking into aliens. To some people, yes, it is a selling point, but to others, theres more to it than just the sweep technology.
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"Originally posted by XSVterror16 V.4: Alright, let me break this down for you. Subaru is a company with stars and a blue background in it's symbol. The national color of Australia is blue and their nights have lots of stars in the sky. Subaru uses bockster motors from Porches. Subaru is Australian and uses Porche motors in their cars. Understand?"
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Old 09-28-2006, 03:24 PM #21
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seriously... all you alien people are saying that the gun can fire a paintball in such a way where it can neglect the earth's 9.8 m/ss acceleration for a certain period of time (giving flatter trajectory/longer distence/hotter girlfriends/etc.) but when you tilt the gun to the right (for example) the ball will not curve at all even though there is no more froce acting on the other side.

Is the gun smart? does it know which way is up to counteract gravity and not curve when tilted?

the marker cannot have a act on trajectory without imparting a good deal of spin... and then it cannot selectively spin a ball. Even if the alien could impart perfect spin on the ball to only flatten (and not raise) the trejectory... it would still curve left or right when tilted due to the fact that the counteractive gravitational force now has a different vector in realtion to the gun's "up".

The most consistent spin (with a perfect sphere) is no spin.
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