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Old 07-21-2006, 02:54 PM #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leprechaun8942
As said before, this will not get you off the BOS list.
I can tell you right now that the statement you just made is false.

Check dementedpaintballer and all the names associated with his IP. Then cross reference the ban list and check how many come up BOS.
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Old 07-21-2006, 03:03 PM #86
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Originally Posted by B0WD0WN
It's like that time I got really really drunk. The cops picked me up, through me in the drunk tank, let me sober up, and then sent me home in the morning. No charges or anything, just a firm warning. (That's what this is)
How about.. you just tell little jimmy or susie that if they do it again, they're going to get spanked with a hatchet? Works great on ICDO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carapace
WHATEVER... dude have you even been comprehending what kyle and tony have been saying??? asm is to give you LEEWAY! NOT AN OJ SIMPSON GET OUT OF JAIL FREE WHEN YOU KNEW AHEAD OF TIME YOU WERE GOING TO KILL THAT CHICK......card.... :|
You retard. Do you not comprehend what LEEWAY is? It's granting 'special privileges' to those who throw cash at PBN.. Think if you could buy your way out of a felony offence... Rich people would be popping a 9mm slug into the face of whoever pissed them off that day, and when they show up in court.. "Oh.. sorry your honor.. here's $xxxxxx.yy, Seeya later."

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle
We reserve the right to choose not to unban you. We're not going to be unbanning people who scam, or are habitual spammers. Don't worry.
So an ASM doesn't automatically have the ability to unban themself.. it's still at the discretion of the administration.

Why bother, then? You are diluting the effectiveness of your own rules.

"Don't Worry"? Yeah, and I bet you won't c..er.. Ejaculate in her mouth, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchuck234
Wow, E-thugs riegn supreme. But to make this post legitimate, please tell me you guys aren't going to start taking away abilities to normal members? I can see where this is starting to go. I know it's all because you guys are trying to persuade people to buy the ASM, but I just hope our current abilities aren't infringed.
Too late. Search functions are already shut down during "periods of high activity" (when is this place *NOT* busy?!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by joejoebob
Hey, atleast PBN is still free.
Wait for it. soon you won't be able to log in except between 2am and 2:13am, and even then, you won't be able to search, you'll have more ads than content on your screen, and you'll have to wait 30 minutes between posts, unless you're tossing enough cash at 'em.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
Guys, it isn't like we're giving people carte blanche to go crazy here. Even if you're an ASM member, if you do something really stupid, we can still say no. So don't go thinking you can porn spam, or go all crazy and get away with it.

We're allowing people a little leeway if they happen to say something stupid or inflammitory that gets them banned.
Kyle... what this really boils down to.. is your mod staff SUCK. Get people who know what they're doing, and moderate effectively, and tehn you can enforce your TOS/AUP to the point where if someone's hell bent on getting stupid, you can deal with it - and the rest of the people get along just fine.

"leeway"... Why's it necessary to have someone PAY to get some leeway? That should be a part of the regular service - or use a three strikes you're out type situation.

It strikes me as deplorable that PBNation's administration seems intent on sucking as much money out of the enterprise as possible, and is doing so at the detriment of the average user.

Kyle.. I'll save my rant for another time. I'm not going to hijack this thread for the purpose of offering suggestions;

You know me through Brent Lange; You're more than welcome to get my contact details from him and we can speak about my frustrations - and, because it's just the sort of person I am, what I would propose as potential solutions to what I perceive as problems.

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Old 07-21-2006, 03:40 PM #87
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Yet another reason for me to be tempted to spend money on not paintballs I think I will be sending PBN some more of my hard earned money soon. Anyone know if it is still discounted for members that were already Suppoters?
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Old 07-21-2006, 03:41 PM #88
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Kyle... what this really boils down to.. is your mod staff SUCK.


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Old 07-21-2006, 03:56 PM #89
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Originally Posted by Darryl Hadfield
Kyle.. I'll save my rant for another time. I'm not going to hijack this thread for the purpose of offering suggestions;
Too late.
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:04 PM #90
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Give it a rest. My comments were about this ASM silliness, not about the issues I have with the way PBN runs, both from a management as well as a technological perspective.

Your commentary would be most welcome, as there appear to be a not insignificant amount of people who are less than impressed with this latest "feature" offering.

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Old 07-21-2006, 04:11 PM #91
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I'll go off on a little rant here, to hopefully put an end to a lot of the crap I see inching its way into this thread.

This "special privilege" we are giving to ASM users is not really a get out of jail free card. It is meant, as I have attempted to convey earlier, to give people who have made an effort to support PBN, an avenue for hopefully changing their ways.

Just as we are free to ban ASM members, we're also free to deny them their unban. If an ASM member manages to get themselves banned for something particularly heinous, like porn spam, blatant disregard for the TOS, or some other offense, we're going to say "sorry, no dice", and send them on their way.

Lets face it, it is pretty easy to get riled up on a site when any moron can create an account to hide behind and poke you in your sensitive bits. I'm "old" by PBN user standards at this point, and I'll admit I am as easily trollable as the average joe on the site. I will admit that there are times when I fly off the handle a bit, and have to edit a post or two before I get myself in trouble.

Everyone has a bad day, and there are times when I see people get banned for things I don't necessarily think may have been banworthy. The reason this happens isn't because our staff "sucks". This site sees like, 30,000 new posts per day. Those 30,000 or so posts come from people with different backgrounds, and different histories here on the site. It is impossible for our moderators to have a 1:1 relationship with each user on the site. It isn't really possible for our staff to read each and every post and act on each one. Stuff falls through the cracks, thats the way it'll always be given the nature of this site, and the kind of people who visit it.

I get SO many emails, PMs, IMs per day from people who think they would be good mods. Many (most) of them are poorly worded, or in some cases totally nonsensical.

Point is, I really don't give a damn if you think you could be a good mod. Just because you have an abundant amount of free time, and an IQ of 15, doesn't mean that we're going to mod you. We have had a nomination program (run by the staff and trusted members) in place for a long time now that helps the administration determine who would do a good job, based on their past posting habits, and the way they present themselves on the site.

How does this fit into the whole unban thing? There are quite a few moderators on the staff at this moment who have had quite the sordid past. They may have banned a few times over the years, but they caught a break , and managed to change their ways. Their continued support (which doesn't necessarily mean monetary support), and contributions to the site are what makes this the best place we can make it.

We're trying to extend that courtesy to people who frequent this site often, and chose to become ASM members in the hopes that while they may have a bad day every so often, that they will continue to visit this site, and contribute in a positive manner.

So, for everyone who is a naysayer, I'd like to ask that you sit back a bit, think about your history on the site, and be a bit more considerate before you come on here to badmouth the people who bust their ***** to keep this site running.

It is not an easy task, as it is often thankless work dealing with everyone e-peens and pretty much constant temper tantrums. I'd like to think that maybe, just maybe that during one of the less manic moments, someone will read this post and take it to heart.
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:21 PM #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Hadfield
Give it a rest. My comments were about this ASM silliness, not about the issues I have with the way PBN runs, both from a management as well as a technological perspective.

Your commentary would be most welcome, as there appear to be a not insignificant amount of people who are less than impressed with this latest "feature" offering.

D.
That is pretty funny considering the majority of your post was criticizing the staff.
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:23 PM #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
Just as we are free to ban ASM members, we're also free to deny them their unban. If an ASM member manages to get themselves banned for something particularly heinous, like porn spam, blatant disregard for the TOS, or some other offense, we're going to say "sorry, no dice", and send them on their way.
So you are or are not commenting on dementedpaintballer being banned for death threats and then subsequently recieving BOS status for posting porn about the 'Nation? Now he is unbanned by some member of the staff even though his past actions are listed in a direct quote by yourself regarding "no dice" for porn spamming.



Your post was long, though it avoided the real subject here and somehow you managed to side-step the real issues. Please answer the questions. Is it not worth your time to debunk some of the mystery?
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:28 PM #94
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:29 PM #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitlebug
So you are or are not commenting on dementedpaintballer being banned for death threats and then subsequently recieving BOS status for posting porn about the 'Nation? Now he is unbanned by some member of the staff even though his past actions are listed in a direct quote by yourself regarding "no dice" for porn spamming.



Your post was long, though it avoided the real subject here and somehow you managed to side-step the real issues. Please answer the questions. Is it not worth your time to debunk some of the mystery?
Well, even though my post was long, this is the first time anyone has mentioned dementedpaintballer to me. I am not actually going to comment on it as I am not really familiar with his case. I don't really deal with that aspect of the site.

So, you say I am avoiding the real subject here? Here's a little tip when attempting to debate an issue with someone. Try actually posing questions, rather than assuming that I am reading your mind. What is your question?
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:30 PM #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
That is pretty funny considering the majority of your post was criticizing the staff.
You think? Or could it perhaps be that you just don't want to address the underlying issue here? Face the truth, Kyle, you're implementing this as a means of addressing a lack of training and education for your staff. Fix that problem, and you don't need this latest bit of baloney.

The nice thing about fixing the root problem is that it also addresses a host of other issues, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
This "special privilege" we are giving to ASM users is not really a get out of jail free card. It is meant, as I have attempted to convey earlier, to give people who have made an effort to support PBN, an avenue for hopefully changing their ways.
I would respectfully ask.. why is it necessary? Are the mods not capable of using their own judgement? Better yet.. formulate a set of rules, keep them as simple as possible, and have all the mods enforce them.

Quote:
Just as we are free to ban ASM members, we're also free to deny them their unban.
This is suggestive that you would not accord a 'regular' member the same privilege... is that so?

Quote:
If an ASM member manages to get themselves banned for something particularly heinous, like porn spam, blatant disregard for the TOS, or some other offense, we're going to say "sorry, no dice", and send them on their way.
Which, again, I would suspect applies to ALL members..

Quote:
Lets face it, it is pretty easy to get riled up on a site when any moron can create an account to hide behind and poke you in your sensitive bits.
Then make a requirement of those who would wish this 'get unbanned' option to use their REAL names. I don't see a lot of people here who do that.

Simple rules, right?

Quote:
Everyone has a bad day, and there are times when I see people get banned for things I don't necessarily think may have been banworthy.
The mods need better training.

Quote:
The reason this happens isn't because our staff "sucks".
They why are people being banned for reasons which you "don't necessarily think may have been banworthy"??

Quote:
This site sees like, 30,000 new posts per day. Those 30,000 or so posts come from people with different backgrounds, and different histories here on the site. It is impossible for our moderators to have a 1:1 relationship with each user on the site.
I agree 100%, and would not argue that point with you.

Quote:
It isn't really possible for our staff to read each and every post and act on each one. Stuff falls through the cracks, thats the way it'll always be given the nature of this site, and the kind of people who visit it.
Again, I agree completely.

I would hasten to ask, however... What does any of this have to do with according PAYING users with special privileges pertinent to their (mis?) behaviour on the site?

Quote:
I get SO many emails, PMs, IMs per day from people who think they would be good mods. Many (most) of them are poorly worded, or in some cases totally nonsensical.
Please don't get me wrong.. or take this the wrong way..

You couldn't pay me to be a mod on this site. I have barely enough time to manage a site that gets only a fraction of a percent of the traffic this site does.

Quote:
Point is, I really don't give a damn if you think you could be a good mod. Just because you have an abundant amount of free time, and an IQ of 15, doesn't mean that we're going to mod you. We have had a nomination program (run by the staff and trusted members) in place for a long time now that helps the administration determine who would do a good job, based on their past posting habits, and the way they present themselves on the site.
Why would you base someone's ability to moderate, on their posting habits? That's like voting someone into office based on the way they've voted in the past. It very quickly degrades the capability of the system as a whole, and in some circumstances, can very easily devolve into a favoritistic mess.

Quote:
How does this fit into the whole unban thing? There are quite a few moderators on the staff at this moment who have had quite the sordid past. They may have banned a few times over the years, but they caught a break , and managed to change their ways.
Call me nuts... but wouldn't you elect mods based on their ability to NOT get banned? While there are several circumstances where I would advocate making the wolves into sheepdogs, this certainly isn't one of them. If you wish to suggest that they mended their ways PRIOR to becoming a mod.. then your point is moot.

Quote:
Their continued support (which doesn't necessarily mean monetary support), and contributions to the site are what makes this the best place we can make it.
A place that is worthy of granting paying members added consideration for behavioural offences?

Quote:
We're trying to extend that courtesy to people who frequent this site often, chose to become ASM members in the hopes that while they may have a bad day every so often, that they will continue to visit this site, and contribute in a positive manner.
Why not offer it to those who contribute to the smooth running of the environment, instead of just those who throw a few extra greenbacks your way?

Quote:
So, for everyone who is a naysayer, I'd like to ask that you sit back a bit, think about your history on the site, and be a bit more considerate before you come on here to badmouth the people who bust their ***** to keep this site running.
I don't see a lot of busting of *'s, to be honest. I see a lot of silly stuff going on that (in my opinion, anyway) ought not to - or which should be nipped in the bud.
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:30 PM #97
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Originally Posted by Spitlebug
So when you say discretionary what are we talking about here?

Is feedback fraud redeemable? What about proven scamming? Porn spamming? Extreme flaming? Corporate spam (your losing advert dollars)?


BTW, while we are on the subject... thanks for allowing dementedpaintballer back.
Direct quote from a page or two ago.
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:34 PM #98
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Oh, and just to reiterate, this is a ONE time thing per ASM subscription. Technically subscriptions renew on a yearly basis, but my point is, if someone is truly that much of a problem and manages to get unbanned (only one staff member is dealing with the unbans, and may or may not be familiar with the history of a particular account), chances are if they are that much of a habitual PITA, that they are very likely to end up banned again before too long.

What difference is it to the users, if someone who is banned but not BOS gets an ASM account unbanned, when they could just as easily create a new account?

In checking the massive list of people who have cashed in their unbans (4 people), dementedpaintballer appears to be on that list.

I will discuss this with the person in charge of the unbanning to ensure that they are making an effort to look into the past history (as much as we can easily) to make sure that they aren't unknowlingly unbanning people who have committed crimes against humanity (that is why you all are getting so excited, right?)
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:39 PM #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
I will discuss this with the person in charge of the unbanning to ensure that they are making an effort to look into the past history (as much as we can easily) to make sure that they aren't unknowlingly unbanning people who have committed crimes against humanity (that is why you all are getting so excited, right?)
I would hardly consider it "crimes against humanity".

I would more likely call it crimes against: Intelligence, rational thought, reason, order, rules and discipline.
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:40 PM #100
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So you're not going to address the issue. Okay.
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:45 PM #101
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You think?
*snip*

I'm not going to reply to each one of your points as this really isn't the place for such a discussion.

You said yourself, you can barely keep on top of the forum you moderate at, so why are you making such a big deal about it on a site that is probably 1000x bigger?

The staff here moderates the site to the best of their ability. Whether or not you really agree with how they do so is a moot point, as we have a system of peer review and discussion in the staff forums to help improve the moderation of the site.

It's not perfect, I'll admit it. However, I am confident that our staff members attempt to contribute to the best of their ability. They aren't paid, so how much can I really ask from someone?

Over the past year, we've begun a moderator training program that attempts to help moderators start off on the right foot, and gives them a set of guidelines that they are to follow.

That isn't to say that there won't be times when they deviate from the "path".

In my wise old age I've come to realize that attempting to get a large group of people (our 100 or so moderators) to all think collectively is futile unless it involves large amounts of mind-control kool-aid.

It boils down to this. You can't please everyone. I also can't handhold everyone who staffs this site, nor do I want to. I am not going to spend my time slapping everyones wrist everytime someone gets perm banned, when my time is better spent developing, or standing on my mountain handing out commandments on how the site should be run.

I'm sorry you disagree with the way things are run here, but to be honest I think your time is better spent running for local government or raising rabbits at the local 4-H. This sites administration does strive to better the site regardless of if you think it is happening, but to be fair to us, you really don't have an idea of what goes on behind the scenes here.

I am proud of the staff for all the hard work they put in, and I hope that we can try to improve the quality of the moderation, as sadly I have come to realize that if we are forced to rely on the users to improve the quality of the posts that we're fighting a losing battle.

I appreciate you taking the time to attempt to better a site that based on your posts in this thread, you don't really seem to care a whole lot about, but this is neither the time nor the place to do so.

We're giving this a shot. It could very well prove to be a disaster, but as we all know, most times a disaster is easily rectified with a few waves of my banstick and a liberal application of whupass.
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Old 07-21-2006, 04:55 PM #102
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Can I have an Amen...

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Old 07-21-2006, 04:59 PM #103
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So can anybody answer my question about when I get unbanned if I can have my deleted feedback back?
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Old 07-21-2006, 05:01 PM #104
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So can anybody answer my question about when I get unbanned if I can have my deleted feedback back?
Yes, we can attempt to undelete your feedback for you.
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Old 07-21-2006, 05:02 PM #105
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Quote:
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In checking the massive list of people who have cashed in their unbans (4 people), dementedpaintballer appears to be on that list.
Ooh, ooh, was I #1?

I was banned for "trolling/stupid comments" for 5 days, though I thought 5 days was a bit much for a first time offender, I can see how my comments could be thought of as trolling, and I accepted that, realizing I'd have to check myself from posting like-comments in the future. Then they unveil the ASM Un-ban feature, and wham, here I am again. I think this feature is quite useful, and as long as the worst offenders aren't allowed the oppurtunity to use this feature, I believe it's fair.

I think the major point between Darryl and Kyle is that D wants to see all members given the courtesy of a re-consideration of their ban if they were indeed having just a bad day, while Kyle, with this feature, is according that courtesy only to subscribers, based on the points that he believes all ASM's are overall excellent contributing forum members, have proven such with their annual monetary subscription, and thus are worthy of the courtesy.

While I can side with either party, D., you see that with their huge member base, it would be nigh on impossible to deal with each banned case individually, and that the ASM users are in general, a very small fraction of banned users, thus making it manageable for them to be dealt with. And Kyle, you see that just because a user donates a certain amount of money each year, they aren't necessarily good contributing forum members?

So yeah, I'm glad I could use this feature, and I think D and Kyle both bring up good points, and this discussion should continue, as I see that it could be very fruitful in staff-member relations, and could possibly lead to some improvements in the way banned accounts in general are handled, and the basic guidelines of the site.

/Tesko out
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