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Old 09-13-2011, 03:17 PM #1
Capt'n Crunch
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Is the top hat mod necessary if you have an Orange Bolt?

So, I've heard one increases pressure and one lowers it. So is having both just redundant?
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Old 09-13-2011, 04:23 PM #2
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i think my orange bolt came with a sleeve for the tophat mod, for my dm6.
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Old 09-13-2011, 04:55 PM #3
Dethant
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IMO tophat mods are never worth it.

But if you buy something that increases volume to make the gun quieter, and then make a tophat mod to decrease the volume, you will end up were you started. lol
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Old 09-13-2011, 05:08 PM #4
BonesJackson
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Let me just explain super briefly about top had mods for the hell of it even though two people will probably read it in this thread.

The original Matrix was designed wrong. The shot chamber, where the top hat is, had too much dead space in it. Basically, if you let the shot chamber drain each shot by having a high dwell, it would be needlessly wasting air. At a certain point, even if the pressure was super low, with the massive chamber it wasn't enough to get the ball up to proper speed at the chrono.

What people found they could do was shrink the volume of the chamber with a top hat mod and cut out that waste space. However, people noticed if they did this to an extreme, the velocity of their gun dropped. This meant they'd reached the inflection point, so to say. At a certain point, after you eliminate the 'waste' space, you're just raising the pressure.

When the DM4 FUSE bolt system came out, Dye had a much better idea of what was an appropriate volume of air for the gun to use, and top hat mods are largely redundant, and only raised the shot pressure of the gun. From what I can tell, all you're doing is making the gun louder at that point.
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Old 09-13-2011, 08:00 PM #5
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it does allow you to lower your dwell because the volume that has to be filled is smaller. is it necessary no. Is it highly advantageous? NO. will it hurt your gun? no. Will it increase the amount of shots you get per fill? probably not noticeably. If it does it wasnt tuned right to begin with.
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Old 09-13-2011, 09:01 PM #6
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it does allow you to lower your dwell because the volume that has to be filled is smaller.
What? No.
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Old 09-13-2011, 09:45 PM #7
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how is this not true? the volume of the air chamber decreases. therefore it will take less time to fill the chamber to even it out with your reg. pressure is contorled by the reg not by volume. the only way volume changes pressure is if the same volume of air is being pushed into a smaller chamber with force. the regulator releases a set amount of air true but once the pressures are even it will not push anymore in to the chamber. like when you fill a tank with a compressor that does not reach a full fill. if you dont need as much air you do not need your solenoid to be open as long. the solenoid stays open a set amount of time to let a set volume of air through. if that volume decreases then the time for the solenoid to be open can also decrease. if you can take your tank off and still get multiple shots afterwards then you do not require that much air in your regulator. you can turn it down and it wont affect the gun as long as you have enough air to make a complete cycle. likewise if your dwell is too low your solenoid will not stay open long enough to charge your reg. these are milliseconds and the time it takes to charge a reg is miniscule. so having extra shots in reserve, so to say, in your reg is pointless. I have had dm's with a top hat mod running at a dwell of 12. I dont know that I have ever seen an unmoded one that will run that low.
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Last edited by neophyte : 09-13-2011 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 09-13-2011, 09:46 PM #8
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Ok, well it was on it when I purchased the marker, I think I'm going to remove it. I don't see the point to it...
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Old 09-13-2011, 09:52 PM #9
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it wont hurt you to take it off.
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Old 09-13-2011, 10:16 PM #10
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Originally Posted by neophyte View Post
how is this not true? the volume of the air chamber decreases. therefore it will take less time to fill the chamber to even it out with your reg. pressure is contorled by the reg not by volume. the only way volume changes pressure is if the same volume of air is being pushed into a smaller chamber with force. the regulator releases a set amount of air true but once the pressures are even it will not push anymore in to the chamber. like when you fill a tank with a compressor that does not reach a full fill. if you dont need as much air you do not need your solenoid to be open as long. the solenoid stays open a set amount of time to let a set volume of air through. if that volume decreases then the time for the solenoid to be open can also decrease. if you can take your tank off and still get multiple shots afterwards then you do not require that much air in your regulator. you can turn it down and it wont affect the gun as long as you have enough air to make a complete cycle. likewise if your dwell is too low your solenoid will not stay open long enough to charge your reg. these are milliseconds and the time it takes to charge a reg is miniscule. so having extra shots in reserve, so to say, in your reg is pointless. I have had dm's with a top hat mod running at a dwell of 12. I dont know that I have ever seen an unmoded one that will run that low.
First off, I don't understand what you're saying about the relationship of the solenoid to the HPR. Both of those systems use different air. Second, why would you want to lower your dwell?
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Old 09-13-2011, 10:51 PM #11
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to cut the argument short. I have noticed the ability to run a lower dwell with the mod. a lower dwell means more efficeincy like you said in your first post. and all air goes through the hpr before it gets to any other part of the gun.

you can ignore that long post. I reread it and it is wrong. but I would think that lowering the dwell would be caused by a decrease volume of air needing to be released (like you said in your first post). the bolt doesnt need to stay open as long so neither does the solenoid.

you were right sir and I apologize for my rambling. but you described how it would lower dwell and why you would do it in your first post.
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Last edited by neophyte : 09-13-2011 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 09-13-2011, 11:13 PM #12
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Lower dwell ONLY makes it more efficient if the shot chamber is too big. I don't believe any of the shot chambers since the original Matrix have been too big. Therefore a low dwell can actually be counter intuitive if you think about it. The dwell controls ONLY how long the solenoid is on. The shorter the dwell, the less time the bolt has to move back and forth. You make a super low dwell, that means the bolt has to move really fast. This may mean you need to turn the LPR up to make sure the bolt is moving fast enough. Faster moving LPR can mean both harder on paint and more kick. It can also worsen problems like FSDO.

The only downside a high dwell has in a gun with a properly sized shot chamber is using up the battery quicker.
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Old 09-13-2011, 11:30 PM #13
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thats true. but like with all dms it is all about balance. not everyone settings are going to be the same. some prefer it set different than others. I did not like my dwell that low and it no longer is. the gun kicked like a mule but I was still pretty air efficient not any worse off. and like I said earlier the difference isnt really that noticeable. I didnt notice any difference in air efficiency so I upped it again and took the mod off. but as far as only making a difference when the chamber is oversized. I would think the physics would be the same as long as the volume of air did not get so low that the pressure dropped once it got into the bolt. I never owned a dm3 so I dont know about doing the mod on them and the difference it made. I just know that on a dm7 it wasnt that great. I dropped my dwell and only had to turn my lpr up about 1 turn. like i said i didnt like the way the gun shot and I could get air in between each game if need be so it seemed kinda pointless.
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Old 09-13-2011, 11:37 PM #14
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A top hat mod on a DM4+ is pointless and just a mere holdover from the old way people used to think and do things. All it does is make your raise your HPR pressure which stresses the hell out of the internal top hat o-ring and makes it more likely to blow out.

edit- I really don't know how I can make it plainer: Dicking with top hat mods or otherwise changing the volume of the shot chamber on a DM4+ has no effect on your ability to set a lower or higher dwell. Additionally, it should have no effect on efficiency.

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Old 09-13-2011, 11:40 PM #15
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I dont understand why is what I am trying to tell you. i would think the effect would be the same.
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Old 09-14-2011, 09:30 AM #16
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Iv tryed a engine ring and oring monkey top hat orings on my dm7 and I now dont even use them. You have to increase the hpr wich makes a less smooth shot and feel. The best thing you can do for your gun is find some nice lube set regs and dwell stock and maybe tune the lpr to that. Iv come to find out even gye techs use stock settings. I know off mine I got 8 pods off a 3000 sunday and still had some left
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