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Old 05-18-2006, 01:34 PM #22
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Just for arguements sake, would this take place in West Va? and would said rapist, be related to said victim?
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Old 05-19-2006, 10:02 AM #23
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If the girl is under your states legal age of having sex and she has sex with her 35 year old boyfriend, the guy can be charged with satutory rape. My cousin was in the same situation... Her boyfriend ended up going to jail for a year or two.
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Old 05-19-2006, 11:40 AM #24
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let's just say that if you're having sex with someone, you better know that you have express consent. Almost every single jurisdiction requires "affirmative" consent as opposed to "implied" consent (and I use quotes because the language varies). They are distinguished by "affirmative" equally a positive agreement to intercourse instead of what you could call "not saying no". So to answer your question, it would very likely depend on what she said and which state it occurred. It is possible that if she said or did nothing, and the guy just jumped her, that the conduct would be rape.
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Old 05-19-2006, 11:42 AM #25
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Consensual rape = consensual sex

Are you an idiot?
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Old 05-19-2006, 09:44 PM #26
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I'm not surprised the argument didn't go anywhere with your friend because it simply would never happen.

many girls have " rape " fantasies, but are smart enough to know they could probably be killed in the process. They seek partners willing to fulfill this fantasy with them, minus the death.

If a girl went into an alley looking to be raped, chances are she would be gang raped by a bunch of bums. trust me, she does not want that and will press charges.
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Old 05-19-2006, 10:14 PM #27
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Rape has nothing to do with the sex; it's about the loss of power, and the mental abuse of being overpowered and helpless. You cannot willing feel helpless, otherwise you wouldn't be helpless.

Don’t know if that makes sense
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Old 05-20-2006, 04:32 PM #28
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If it is consensual, its not rape.

BTW, it's not rape, it's suprise sex!
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Old 05-20-2006, 10:15 PM #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StellarKnight
Ahhh.

And yes, I believe that I am one of like the first 1500 registered names. Just never been banned (temp. or perm if that's believable). ElTwitch may be older, IDK.
I got you by a month

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Yes. Why do womyn desire domination? Patriarchal social norms. If a woman has fantasies about submission it's because it's been internalized as a fantasy. Sex can and often is coercive, whether or not the specifics of the sexual act are coercive.
First off, it's spelled "women", and "woman". The second you use the radical feminist man hater spelling you take a large step to the loss of any subjective credibility.

Second, explain some mens fantasizes of being dominated. After all, if women only think about it because society tells them to submit, then where are the guys getting it from? Maybe, just maybe, it's like 99% of the other fantasies that people have, yet never act on, or act on in a limited, or controlled way.
Giving up control in a situation does not mean getting raped, or being forced to do something. If a woman likes being restrained a little, does that make it rape? Does that make it coercion? What if it's a quid pro quo, and the next time she ties him down?
I don't know who you have been hanging out with, but the last time I checked, people make their own choices. "Sex can and often is coercive" is an easy excuse for people who will not say no because they are afraid so and so won't like them any more. By that same logic, all peer pressure, or any form is coercive. It's not your fault you got high, they pushed you into it. Breaking into that hardware store wasn't my fault, they talked me into it. Sleeping with 10 guys in 10 days wasn't my choice, they pressured me. Bull****. You make a choice, and live with the results.

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Say a woman has this desire to get raped so she puts herself in a scenario to(Scantily clad, high crime area, secluded, dark) and she proceeds to dilly dally around the area till a rapist takes notice.

The rapists seeing his opportunity takes it and proceeds to what he believe rape her.

The woman desires to be raped and submitts.
The most dangerous part of this whole discussion is the tendency to go back to the "she was asking for it" line of thought on sexual attacks. A woman in skimpy clothing, in a dark alley, in a high crime area is stupid, no question about it. She is not asking to be raped though, even if she thinks she wants to be. The rapist is the one making the choice to force her to have sex, so the choice is not hers to make. That makes it rape.

If she told someone, "I am going to be here, at 10pm, in the alley, come back, and screw my brains out no matter what I say" is not rape. She is making a choice to set up the meeting, and making the choice to be there, at that time. The guy is being told where, when, and what in this case.

By extension, a woman in a bar, dancing with a guy, then making out could be said to be asking to be raped. After all, she was kissing him, right? Maybe she wanted it, so it's not his fault. That is the extension of your friends thinking, and a very dangerous thing indeed.
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Old 05-21-2006, 12:31 AM #30
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It is more of an idea that she puts herself in the scenario, yes, but she also take it by her own actions, by her own wills to be subjected to the rapists actions.

The rapist in traditional sense is raping here, but the entire idea of someone wanting to be raped is untraditional, but in itself subject to a human's primal instinct to have sex, yet against being in control, but with the taught subjectiveness of a woman to a man.

In the end, it is not rape.
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Old 05-21-2006, 07:47 AM #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I love Impulses
It is more of an idea that she puts herself in the scenario, yes, but she also take it by her own actions, by her own wills to be subjected to the rapists actions.
Then the argument can be made that EVERY rape is not rape, but the woman wanting it. After all, she's there, and you know, dresses like that, what's the guy going to do? The guy is just being a guy, she should have known better....
It's no different than walking down the street and being robbed. If you weren't dressed nicely, didn't have money on you, and you weren't in a high crime area, then you wouldn't have been robbed, so you must have wanted it to happen.
Without consent of BOTH parties, there is no agreement, and thus it is a crime.

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The rapist in traditional sense is raping here,
That's the only part that counts.

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but the entire idea of someone wanting to be raped is untraditional,
Violently raped, yes, that's true. Exploring a little into the odd areas of sex is not. Sorry, I really doubt there are a lot of women out there fantasizing about violent rape, and even fewer that are out there trying to be raped.

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but in itself subject to a human's primal instinct to have sex,
True, there is a drive to have sex, but not everyone has a rape fantasy, or would act on it in any way.

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yet against being in control,
Not everyone has a constant drive to be in control, both men and women. The surrender of control is not a good or bad thing in and of it's self. Nor is it an indication of rape, or a will to be raped.

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but with the taught subjectiveness of a woman to a man.
See my above response to zach.

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In the end, it is not rape.
Tell that to the judge.
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Old 05-21-2006, 08:04 AM #32
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The laws behind rape have always made me nervous. Basically, its the girl's word against the guy's, and if you had sex the night before, there is evidence, so her story flies more. A devious girl can have consentual sex and then claim rape, just to get a guy in trouble with the law. Its very scary to be a guy with all these laws that protect only women.

It's getting to the point where the guy should have a waiver/contract signed before sex, just to be safe.

To answer the first post, if a girl wants sex, its not rape. Rape is unwanted.
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Old 05-21-2006, 10:48 AM #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKT1106
The laws behind rape have always made me nervous. Basically, its the girl's word against the guy's, and if you had sex the night before, there is evidence, so her story flies more. A devious girl can have consentual sex and then claim rape, just to get a guy in trouble with the law. Its very scary to be a guy with all these laws that protect only women.

It's getting to the point where the guy should have a waiver/contract signed before sex, just to be safe.

To answer the first post, if a girl wants sex, its not rape. Rape is unwanted.
If you didn't rape her, you won't get in trouble for it.

Courts are not that stupid.
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Old 05-21-2006, 12:34 PM #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vantrepes
1. First off, it's spelled "women", and "woman". The second you use the radical feminist man hater spelling you take a large step to the loss of any subjective credibility.

2. Second, explain some mens fantasizes of being dominated. After all, if women only think about it because society tells them to submit, then where are the guys getting it from? Maybe, just maybe, it's like 99% of the other fantasies that people have, yet never act on, or act on in a limited, or controlled way.
3. Giving up control in a situation does not mean getting raped, or being forced to do something. If a woman likes being restrained a little, does that make it rape? Does that make it coercion? What if it's a quid pro quo, and the next time she ties him down?
I don't know who you have been hanging out with, but the last time I checked, people make their own choices. "Sex can and often is coercive" is an easy excuse for people who will not say no because they are afraid so and so won't like them any more.
4. By that same logic, all peer pressure, or any form is coercive. It's not your fault you got high, they pushed you into it. Breaking into that hardware store wasn't my fault, they talked me into it. Sleeping with 10 guys in 10 days wasn't my choice, they pressured me. Bull****. You make a choice, and live with the results.
1. And your assosciation of "radical feminist" with "man hater" puts much of what you say into question as, in my mind, you are immediatly complicit with patriarchy. It also makes you very...very...very ignorant of feminism in that feminism almost never means hating men. Now let's get something cleared up rather quickly: I do not believe in gender. I believe that gender is a social construct that is very often violent to begin with. Why? Because one gender is constructed as weaker (even etymologicly). The shackles of gender have to be undone, little by little, even if it involves something as simple as destabalizing the linguistic subjugation of one gender to another. It isn't that spelling it "woman" or "human" is bad, it's that spelling it "womyn" and "humyn" can be useful.
2. Three points to make here.
a. this goes far beyond fantasies of domination, even the idea that men are out to **** and that women are the ones who submit, who consent is patriarchal. The insertion of submission into sex probably makes it coercive
b. often inverting sexual norms can be seen as, well, sexual. If a man is turned on by being dominated by a womyn it may be because he's already internalized the idea that womyn are the ones to be dominated.
c. I don't mean to be totalizing. I'm not saying don't have sex, I'm not calling you a rapist. I'm saying that sex and gender must be approached critically and ethically.
3. There's a difference between saying "what if two people tie each other up" and "what if a womyn wanders off into a park at night hoping to get attacked". One can be coercive, the other ALWAYS is. There's a difference between a fetish and actually wanting to be raped. Again, I'm not saying sex is rape in every instance, just that our understanding of rape is far too limited.
4. You're totalizing my argument and taking it out of context. So no.


I think you're just scared. It's easier to sleep at night when you don't have to wonder if you've ever had sex under coercive conditions. It also makes you complicit with rape.
Cheers.

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Old 05-21-2006, 01:55 PM #35
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1. And your assosciation of "radical feminist" with "man hater" puts much of what you say into question as, in my mind, you are immediatly complicit with patriarchy. It also makes you very...very...very ignorant of feminism in that feminism almost never means hating men. Now let's get something cleared up rather quickly: I do not believe in gender. I believe that gender is a social construct that is very often violent to begin with. Why? Because one gender is constructed as weaker (even etymologicly). The shackles of gender have to be undone, little by little, even if it involves something as simple as destabalizing the linguistic subjugation of one gender to another. It isn't that spelling it "woman" or "human" is bad, it's that spelling it "womyn" and "humyn" can be useful.
Sorry, the only people I have seen use the "womyn" spelling are the radical man hating feminist. They changed the spelling because they don't like the fact that the word woman has the word "man" in it. So, yea, that's pretty far to the extreme.
Um, I hate to break it to you, but there are differences between men and women. We are built differently, from the ground up. Women tend to have stronger lower bodies, while men tend to have stronger upper bodies. Women on average have better stamina, while men have better burst of strength, and a higher tolerance for pain. Men tend to be more aggressive, while women tend to be more defensive. Men tend to think short term, while women tend to take a longer view.
What do all of those boil down to? Women are better at surviving a threat by running from it, while men are better at killing things that threaten them. You accept evolution, if I recall correctly, but you refuse to see the effects of it in your own species.
I'm glad you reject gender in your own little world, good for you. The problem is that the rest of reality (oh, wait, that's right, everything is subjective to you, isn't it?) sees the differences, and the language reflects that.

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a. this goes far beyond fantasies of domination, even the idea that men are out to **** and that women are the ones who submit, who consent is patriarchal. The insertion of submission into sex probably makes it coercive
So, I guess I got raped then, and I was coerced into it.... Sorry, but no.

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b. often inverting sexual norms can be seen as, well, sexual. If a man is turned on by being dominated by a womyn it may be because he's already internalized the idea that womyn are the ones to be dominated.
Wait, so because some guys want to be dominated, it reinforces your point that the system dominates women? What kind of screwed up logic is that?

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c. I don't mean to be totalizing. I'm not saying don't have sex, I'm not calling you a rapist. I'm saying that sex and gender must be approached critically and ethically.
Um, if you aren't calling me a rapist, why did you say I might be worried about it at the end of your post?
As for critically, and ethically, one person ASKING another person to have sex is about as ethical as you can get. Of course, according to your first post, just the fact that they are asking, if it's a guy asking a woman, can be, in and of it's self, coersion....

Quote:
3. There's a difference between saying "what if two people tie each other up" and "what if a womyn wanders off into a park at night hoping to get attacked". One can be coercive, the other ALWAYS is. There's a difference between a fetish and actually wanting to be raped. Again, I'm not saying sex is rape in every instance, just that our understanding of rape is far too limited.
Did you bother to read my post? You know, the one where it states that it's rape no matter what if the guy doesn't ask, and she says "yes"... Thanks for supporting my argument.

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4. You're totalizing my argument and taking it out of context. So no.
Yup, because the simple fact that it's about sex does not change the argument. You are saying that people are coerced into sex because of the system. The same can be said about any peer pressure situation. It's a societal pressure causing someone to agree to something, then act on it. No difference.



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I think you're just scared. It's easier to sleep at night when you don't have to wonder if you've ever had sex under coercive conditions. It also makes you complicit with rape.
BAHAHAHAHAHA.....
Sorry bud, but I ask, then ask again, and again. I'm not worried that I talked a woman into doing anything, let alone coercing her into it, because I have not.
Of course, once again, you project your own insecurities onto other people. Unless you have been following me around for the last 33 years, you have no idea what I have, or have not done, but you are happy to assume that I have acted as you seem to think everyone else, other than you with your views of course, would act.
Here's a thought, how about you stick to the facts, and the subject, and try to avoid splitting off into your par for the course personal implications.
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Old 05-21-2006, 09:16 PM #36
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Originally Posted by vantrepes
1. Sorry, the only people I have seen use the "womyn" spelling are the radical man hating feminist. They changed the spelling because they don't like the fact that the word woman has the word "man" in it. So, yea, that's pretty far to the extreme.

2. Um, I hate to break it to you, but there are differences between men and women. We are built differently, from the ground up. Women tend to have stronger lower bodies, while men tend to have stronger upper bodies. Women on average have better stamina, while men have better burst of strength, and a higher tolerance for pain. Men tend to be more aggressive, while women tend to be more defensive. Men tend to think short term, while women tend to take a longer view.
What do all of those boil down to? Women are better at surviving a threat by running from it, while men are better at killing things that threaten them. You accept evolution, if I recall correctly, but you refuse to see the effects of it in your own species.
I'm glad you reject gender in your own little world, good for you. The problem is that the rest of reality (oh, wait, that's right, everything is subjective to you, isn't it?) sees the differences, and the language reflects that.


3. So, I guess I got raped then, and I was coerced into it.... Sorry, but no.


4. Wait, so because some guys want to be dominated, it reinforces your point that the system dominates women? What kind of screwed up logic is that?


5. Um, if you aren't calling me a rapist, why did you say I might be worried about it at the end of your post?

6. As for critically, and ethically, one person ASKING another person to have sex is about as ethical as you can get. Of course, according to your first post, just the fact that they are asking, if it's a guy asking a woman, can be, in and of it's self, coersion....


7. Did you bother to read my post? You know, the one where it states that it's rape no matter what if the guy doesn't ask, and she says "yes"... Thanks for supporting my argument.


8. Yup, because the simple fact that it's about sex does not change the argument. You are saying that people are coerced into sex because of the system. The same can be said about any peer pressure situation. It's a societal pressure causing someone to agree to something, then act on it. No difference.




9. BAHAHAHAHAHA.....
Sorry bud, but I ask, then ask again, and again. I'm not worried that I talked a woman into doing anything, let alone coercing her into it, because I have not.
Of course, once again, you project your own insecurities onto other people. Unless you have been following me around for the last 33 years, you have no idea what I have, or have not done, but you are happy to assume that I have acted as you seem to think everyone else, other than you with your views of course, would act.
Here's a thought, how about you stick to the facts, and the subject, and try to avoid splitting off into your par for the course personal implications.
Let me begin by saying you misunderstood my first post. When I say coercive I do not mean that one person coerces the other (IE talks them into having sex) but that both people operate under gendered norms that make the very conditions of interaction coercive. Does that make one person a rapist? No. Does it make the sex rape? Yes.

1. Whatever.
2. Why do any of those things constitute an identity? Why can't gender be determined by, say, all of those things and eye color? I'm not an agressive person andI have very little physical strength. Does that mean I'm not entirely a man? Are some people more male and others less male? What about people who have a pretty even mix of those characteristics? See, my point is this: humyns can never be neatly divided into catagories. There is always ambiguity and difference.
3. Huh?
4. You can act as incredulous as you please, but you still aren't answering the warants of my post.
5. Because it's disturbing to think that there has to be an ethical calculus beyond a person saying yes when you have sex, because it's disturbing to think that you may be part of power relations that produce systemic oppression.
6. Because there are larger ethical dimensions than what may appear to be consent. You yourself believe this, I'm sure. Would you have sex with someone who was drunk off his/her ***? Same thing.
7. Again, huh?
8. You're correct in that social conditions play into both. But the way that gender relations are situated in our society is vastly different than the way what is genericly called peer pressure is. Thus the two issues must be considered seperately. Though I would make similar arguments in the case of what would genericly be called peer pressure.
9. What the hell are you talking about? I'm so confused... I'm taking a stab at why you're so defensive and upset over what shouldn't be a big deal. And you're right, I am insecure (I'd choose a different word, but we'll go with yours) about this. And I'm damn ****ing glad I am, and I'm disturbed that you're not.


I'm not sure why you're getting so angry and defensive, it really is beyond me. Like I said, this shouldn't be a big deal for you. Maybe you enjoy polemics, who knows. Maybe you take the good ole politics forum as a game you have to win. Whatever the reason, I'd ask you to stop. It's rather annoying, it's anti-intellectual and it's just plain childish. I have no respect for those that approach a discussion in this manner, it makes an exchange off ideas impossible and turns what should be an enlightening discussion into a close-minded discursive war where the objective is not for all involved to walk away better for the discussion, but to harm the other or their beliefs.

So let's start another discussion: you're anti-intellectual and you make it your duty to be the doorkeeper of the hegemonic norms that operate in this society. Whether these specific norms are "good" or "bad" is irrelevent in that the very act of defending them against all criticism is merely an attempt to elevate those norms to divinity, making social change impossible. Good job . It never ceases to sadden me when I see a person who refuses to accept the possibility of change. It is a rare person who will accept the possibly of really, radically altering the way they think. What baffles me to no end is how you can feel ethically sound in refusing to take a critical lens to gender relations when they so intimitly impact your everday life. Or, again, is it merely that you're afraid? Afraid that sex may not be as easy as you once thought, that, god forbid, you may have to refuse sex now and then? I think you're just lazy.

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Old 05-21-2006, 10:02 PM #37
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That's just a sex game. It's consentual, so it's legal. I played this game with an old girlfriend of mine where I would act as a predator and she would be an innocent school girl. She would walk by my house and I would grab her and carry her inside and "rape" her. It was pretty damn hot. We tried switching roles but it didn't work at all. She's stupid.
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Old 05-21-2006, 10:47 PM #38
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I agree with you, the system is flawed to say the least. If she says she didnt want to have sex with you, the court will agree with her, and you'll be ****ing on a toilet with no rim for a good few years.
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Old 05-21-2006, 11:50 PM #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zack

So let's start another discussion: you're anti-intellectual and you make it your duty to be the doorkeeper of the hegemonic norms that operate in this society. Whether these specific norms are "good" or "bad" is irrelevent in that the very act of defending them against all criticism is merely an attempt to elevate those norms to divinity, making social change impossible. Good job . It never ceases to sadden me when I see a person who refuses to accept the possibility of change. It is a rare person who will accept the possibly of really, radically altering the way they think. What baffles me to no end is how you can feel ethically sound in refusing to take a critical lens to gender relations when they so intimitly impact your everday life. Or, again, is it merely that you're afraid? Afraid that sex may not be as easy as you once thought, that, god forbid, you may have to refuse sex now and then? I think you're just lazy.
Wow, that is on par with the Billy Madison insult.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
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Old 05-22-2006, 12:01 AM #40
vantrepes
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Location: Rochester NY
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Let me begin by saying you misunderstood my first post. When I say coercive I do not mean that one person coerces the other (IE talks them into having sex) but that both people operate under gendered norms that make the very conditions of interaction coercive. Does that make one person a rapist? No. Does it make the sex rape? Yes.
Can't keep your own stance straight, can you?
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Again, I'm not saying sex is rape in every instance, just that our understanding of rape is far too limited
First you say all sex is not rape, then, in this post, you say it is.

So, is all sex rape, or isn't it? I'll answer for you.

I understood your first post completely. The idea that all sex is rape because of social structure is a joke, nothing more. Rape, by definition, requires one of the participants to be unwilling. Consensual sex is not rape, no matter what society it's happening in.

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1. Whatever.
It's a lot easier to say "whatever" than to defend your choice of spelling, and the foundation it's based on, isn't it?

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2. Why do any of those things constitute an identity? Why can't gender be determined by, say, all of those things and eye color? I'm not an agressive person andI have very little physical strength. Does that mean I'm not entirely a man? Are some people more male and others less male? What about people who have a pretty even mix of those characteristics? See, my point is this: humyns can never be neatly divided into catagories. There is always ambiguity and difference.
OK, since you seem to have skipped health class, I'll point out the obvious difference: Women can carry a child to term, and give birth. Men can not. Men can impregnate women, while women can not.
Pretty cut and dried for a mammal, isn't it?

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3. Huh?
If a woman asked to tie me up, by your definition, that's coercive sex, which you are using interchangeably with rape. So, I guess I have been raped, but enough of my personal life.

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4. You can act as incredulous as you please, but you still aren't answering the warants of my post.
That's because once you filter out all the philosophical buzz words, and the first year pseudo psychology, there isn't one.

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5. Because it's disturbing to think that there has to be an ethical calculus beyond a person saying yes when you have sex, because it's disturbing to think that you may be part of power relations that produce systemic oppression.
Only if I accept your twisted version of all sex being rape because of the societal structure. I don't, so your implication that my disagreement with you is based on the idea that I am uncomfortable with the possibility that I coerced a woman into having sex doesn't stand.
You place societal influence over the individuals choice as the reason, while I do the opposite. I think that society can have an impact, but the end result is always the choice of the individual, as is everything else. People can choose to follow the "norms", or to rebel against them.

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6. Because there are larger ethical dimensions than what may appear to be consent. You yourself believe this, I'm sure. Would you have sex with someone who was drunk off his/her ***? Same thing.
No, I wouldn't and haven't, because they are not able to form consent at that time. It's no different than a child saying they want to have sex, at that time, they don't have a full grasp of the situation.
The difference is that I don't see the societal influence as the be all end all of the decision making process.

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7. Again, huh?
You restate the same thing I did in my first post, showing the difference between an act between two consenting adults, and an act where one person makes the choice without the consent of the other. Again, thank you for repeating my argument....

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8. You're correct in that social conditions play into both. But the way that gender relations are situated in our society is vastly different than the way what is genericly called peer pressure is. Thus the two issues must be considered seperately. Though I would make similar arguments in the case of what would genericly be called peer pressure.
Nope, not different at all. Unless you are dating someone well older than you, the two people in a relationship will see themselves as peers, thus, the pressure to have sex is coming from a peer, not a power symbol.

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9. What the hell are you talking about? I'm so confused... I'm taking a stab at why you're so defensive and upset over what shouldn't be a big deal. And you're right, I am insecure (I'd choose a different word, but we'll go with yours) about this. And I'm damn ****ing glad I am, and I'm disturbed that you're not.
Once again, thank you for informing of my own mindset while I type....

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I'm not sure why you're getting so angry and defensive, it really is beyond me. Like I said, this shouldn't be a big deal for you.
You implied that my stance is based on a personal fear of having coerced a woman into having sex with me, I respond that it is not, and you say I am defensive? Maybe I should ignore it, and you can claim I am too scared to address the issue at all. You play the semantics game to the hilt.

On that note, I am going to skip a large chunk of your post that has nothing do with the topic at hand, and get on to the last bit, which also has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but I want to address anyway.

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So let's start another discussion: you're anti-intellectual and you make it your duty to be the doorkeeper of the hegemonic norms that operate in this society.
Sorry, but no. Given the choice, I would rip this place down to the ground, and rebuild it using the foundation of the Constitution, which has been perverted to a huge degree in the last 200+ years. I don't fear change at all, I have been watching it happen over my life span, and been reading about it from long before my birth. Change doesn't bother me at all. People like you choosing the changes to make would bother the hell out of me.

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Whether these specific norms are "good" or "bad" is irrelevent in that the very act of defending them against all criticism is merely an attempt to elevate those norms to divinity, making social change impossible. Good job .
Social change? Have you ever thought that maybe the social change you want really is the problem, and not the solution to modern ills? Welfare was designed to fix poverty, and ended up destroying poor families as a solid unit. Medicaid has ballooned the cost of health care and the taxes to support it, while driving down the quality of care for the very people it was designed to help. Kids are taught that their self esteem is a gift of birth, and not a result of hard work, and success because of it. Yea, I have watched all kinds of "progressive" change rip huge chunks of this country, and others to bits. Sorry if I don't see your personal brand of intellectualism any different than all the others that have come before, done their damage, then slink away shaking their heads, wondering why it didn't work out the way they thought it should have.

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It never ceases to sadden me when I see a person who refuses to accept the possibility of change. It is a rare person who will accept the possibly of really, radically altering the way they think.
Once again, you seem to have an in sight into my thinking that no one else has. It must truly be a gift to be able to read people's minds from that far away....
I hate to break it to you, but I have changed the way I thought as I grew up. I marched with my parents in the anti-nuke rallies of the 80's. I have been to farms in Upstate NY to help migrant farm workers organize, and strike for better housing, pay and benefits. I was the good little lefty until I started asking questions my parents, and their friends didn't have a good answer to. Then I started digging on my own, and I started finding the flaws in their logic.
My political, and philosophical positions are not from training, or how I was raised, they are the end result of research, and logic over the last 25 years.

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What baffles me to no end is how you can feel ethically sound in refusing to take a critical lens to gender relations when they so intimitly impact your everday life.
Gender relations? How exactly do gender relations impact my life any more than race relations, class relations, political relations, or any of the myriad of other issues people like to rail about? Maybe we should take that critical lens, and point it at the results of the social welfare programs, or the EOE laws?

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Or, again, is it merely that you're afraid? Afraid that sex may not be as easy as you once thought, that, god forbid, you may have to refuse sex now and then? I think you're just lazy.
Now, because I disagree with you, I'm impotent? You are a joke. A living, breathing stereotype of the nose in the air intellectual.
You want to claim the high ground, but you can't seem to pull yourself out of the gutter. Sure, the **** you throw is covered with your pseudo intellectual flowers, and your philosophical wrappings, but in the end, you fall back to vague insults, and little else. To be honest, I know better than to expect anything more from you.
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Old 05-22-2006, 07:21 PM #41
zack
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by vantrepes
1. Can't keep your own stance straight, can you?

2. First you say all sex is not rape, then, in this post, you say it is.

So, is all sex rape, or isn't it? I'll answer for you.

3. I understood your first post completely. The idea that all sex is rape because of social structure is a joke, nothing more. Rape, by definition, requires one of the participants to be unwilling. Consensual sex is not rape, no matter what society it's happening in.


4. It's a lot easier to say "whatever" than to defend your choice of spelling, and the foundation it's based on, isn't it?


5. OK, since you seem to have skipped health class, I'll point out the obvious difference: Women can carry a child to term, and give birth. Men can not. Men can impregnate women, while women can not.
Pretty cut and dried for a mammal, isn't it?


6. If a woman asked to tie me up, by your definition, that's coercive sex, which you are using interchangeably with rape. So, I guess I have been raped, but enough of my personal life.


7. That's because once you filter out all the philosophical buzz words, and the first year pseudo psychology, there isn't one.


8. Only if I accept your twisted version of all sex being rape because of the societal structure. I don't, so your implication that my disagreement with you is based on the idea that I am uncomfortable with the possibility that I coerced a woman into having sex doesn't stand.

9. You place societal influence over the individuals choice as the reason, while I do the opposite. I think that society can have an impact, but the end result is always the choice of the individual, as is everything else. People can choose to follow the "norms", or to rebel against them.


10. No, I wouldn't and haven't, because they are not able to form consent at that time. It's no different than a child saying they want to have sex, at that time, they don't have a full grasp of the situation.
The difference is that I don't see the societal influence as the be all end all of the decision making process.


11. You restate the same thing I did in my first post, showing the difference between an act between two consenting adults, and an act where one person makes the choice without the consent of the other. Again, thank you for repeating my argument....


12. Nope, not different at all. Unless you are dating someone well older than you, the two people in a relationship will see themselves as peers, thus, the pressure to have sex is coming from a peer, not a power symbol.


13. Once again, thank you for informing of my own mindset while I type....


14. You implied that my stance is based on a personal fear of having coerced a woman into having sex with me, I respond that it is not, and you say I am defensive? Maybe I should ignore it, and you can claim I am too scared to address the issue at all. You play the semantics game to the hilt.

15. On that note, I am going to skip a large chunk of your post that has nothing do with the topic at hand, and get on to the last bit, which also has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but I want to address anyway.


16. Sorry, but no. Given the choice, I would rip this place down to the ground, and rebuild it using the foundation of the Constitution, which has been perverted to a huge degree in the last 200+ years. I don't fear change at all, I have been watching it happen over my life span, and been reading about it from long before my birth. Change doesn't bother me at all. People like you choosing the changes to make would bother the hell out of me.


17. Social change? Have you ever thought that maybe the social change you want really is the problem, and not the solution to modern ills? Welfare was designed to fix poverty, and ended up destroying poor families as a solid unit. Medicaid has ballooned the cost of health care and the taxes to support it, while driving down the quality of care for the very people it was designed to help. Kids are taught that their self esteem is a gift of birth, and not a result of hard work, and success because of it. Yea, I have watched all kinds of "progressive" change rip huge chunks of this country, and others to bits. Sorry if I don't see your personal brand of intellectualism any different than all the others that have come before, done their damage, then slink away shaking their heads, wondering why it didn't work out the way they thought it should have.


18. Once again, you seem to have an in sight into my thinking that no one else has. It must truly be a gift to be able to read people's minds from that far away....
I hate to break it to you, but I have changed the way I thought as I grew up. I marched with my parents in the anti-nuke rallies of the 80's. I have been to farms in Upstate NY to help migrant farm workers organize, and strike for better housing, pay and benefits. I was the good little lefty until I started asking questions my parents, and their friends didn't have a good answer to. Then I started digging on my own, and I started finding the flaws in their logic.
My political, and philosophical positions are not from training, or how I was raised, they are the end result of research, and logic over the last 25 years.


19. Gender relations? How exactly do gender relations impact my life any more than race relations, class relations, political relations, or any of the myriad of other issues people like to rail about? Maybe we should take that critical lens, and point it at the results of the social welfare programs, or the EOE laws?


20. Now, because I disagree with you, I'm impotent? You are a joke. A living, breathing stereotype of the nose in the air intellectual.
You want to claim the high ground, but you can't seem to pull yourself out of the gutter. Sure, the **** you throw is covered with your pseudo intellectual flowers, and your philosophical wrappings, but in the end, you fall back to vague insults, and little else. To be honest, I know better than to expect anything more from you.
Let's get my argument straight right here: our definition of rape is too limited because there are social pressures (such as the internalization of norms) that create gendered power relations, making it possible for sex to occur under coercive conditions without one person coercing the other. This justifies taking a critical and ethical lens to sex. It's really that simple. At this point, you literaly have no arguments that are aimed at refuting this claim as you still think my argument is that all sex is rape.

1. Actually, you just misunderstood me to begin with.
2. Nowhere did I ever say that all sex is rape.
3. My argument is that our deffinition of rape is too limited. You're arguing semantics, I'm arguing politics.
4. What you said sounded like an appology to me, I wasn't aware that you were asking for a justification. Let's go over what just happened in this part of our discussion. You said only man haters spell womyn and humyn with Ys, I said that that is incorrect, then you said it was 'extreme'. Now, I don't see anything intrinsicly wrong with radical political beliefs so I don't understand how to respond to your post. Yes, it's 'extreme', I suppose, but that's meaningless lacking a warranted reason why it's bad.
5. You need to read my posts much much closer if you want to have a discussion (which I'm fairly certain you don't). The point isn't that there aren't biological differences between people, but that to divide people into a political identity based on something as random and arbitrary as whether you can carry a child or not is moronic.
6. No...you still misunderstand my argument. I make no totalizing claims that involve words such as 'never' or 'always'.
7. Again, you aren't answering the warrants of my argument. Being even more incredulous still won't make an argument for you.
8. Not my argument
9. Also not my argument
10. What's the difference between a person who has been unknowingly drugged consenting to have sex than a person who has been unknowlingly indoctrinated that gender relations function in such and such a way consenting? Again, it isn't cut and dry on either end. Perhaps, in either situation, a person would consent anyway. There are a lot of "what if"s which is why ethics plays into this.
11. Interesting but irrelevent.
12. Say what? That's also interesting but irrelevent. The point isn't that peer pressure doesn't play into sex (you're correct, it does) but that, beyond that, there is the issue of gender relations which, as they are different, must be treated seperately. We can have a discussion about peer pressure if you'd like, but that's a seperate discussion. At this point you're just disagreeing with me to be contrary.
13. I didn't. I guessed. Don't be indignant, I haven't insulted you beyond saying that you may just be lazy.
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Old 05-22-2006, 07:23 PM #42
zack
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
 has been a member for 10 years
14. No, I never claimed that you coerced a womyn into having sex with you. See, this is why it's good to read my posts closely. I pointed out that, if you are, in fact, a knowledge agent that, unknowlingly, is part of a set of power relations that makes it possible for sex to occur under coercive conditions without any person involved in the sexual act being overtly coercive then it means you have to think very hard about sex, a simply "yes" isn't enough, there has to be a critical examination of the situation. I'm not calling you a rapist, christ, I'm saying that you might just be lazy.

Beyond that, you got hella angry right from the start.
15. Actually, it has everything to do with the form if not the content of this discussion. If you're in this to 'win' then there's no reason for me to talk to you. If you're here to have a discussion, then, again, I'd ask you to be far more respectful than you're being.
16. Hi, I'm Zack and I asserted a warranted reason why your conduct in this discussion is implicitly a defense of the status quo. You responded with "nu-uh!" Right.
17. Now I really have to ask: what in the holy hell are you talking about?
a. I'm not into welfare states. My argument has NOTHING to do with statist politics.
b. Again, it isn't about any specific social change. It's about the anti-intellectual form of your arguments and the way you conduct yourself in this discussion. You have no dignity as an intellectual and refuse to approach this as a discussion rather than a discursive war. This disturbs me as it is an implicit defense of the status quo (a refusal of critical thought).
18. Once again you fail to grasp the scope of my argument. I'm not saying that the specific content of your argument is close-minded, but that the form of it is. That the very approach you take to discussion (IE argumentation) is itself anti-intellectual. Also, when I say change I don't mean, you know, re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, but radical criticism. In reality, not just in a relativistic sense, both "right" and "left" in this country actually turn out to be one form or another of liberalism.
19. The comparison I was actually attempting to draw was between, say, gender relations (which affect you every single day and which, more importantly, you can affect) and, say, the patriot act which, while it may affect you every day, you have very very little power over.
20. Not at all. I'm glad you disagree with me. I'm disappointed that you do so violently.
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