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Old 05-16-2006, 05:55 PM #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
This is no surprise. Fascism is ushered in by securing a national identity (flags, Christ and McDonalds), by securing borders against an external enemy (the terrorist, the immigrant...or is there any difference?) and by the transformation of the public sphere into a violent space where democratic dissent is impossible. Welcome to the new fascism, my Good American friends.
During the rise of Hitler, young boys were encouraged to join youth groups, enlist in the army, and work hard for a better country. Today, we are being told to do the same. Zomg, Fascism!

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Old 05-16-2006, 06:03 PM #44
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bush's idiocy has amazed me time and time again.
a large portion of the undocumented immigrants that stay would like to go back to their country of origin, but are afraid of getting caught due to tightened border security.
hes simply using this to distract us from MORE IMPORTANT issues, namely Iraq, the fascist patriot act etc.

and to those that are against immigration, go live in mexico under their conditions for ten years and tell me you wouldnt jump over a ****ing wall to get back to america you spoiled, ignorant dickheads.
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Old 05-16-2006, 06:56 PM #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EL.DORITO
bush's idiocy has amazed me time and time again.
a large portion of the undocumented immigrants that stay would like to go back to their country of origin, but are afraid of getting caught due to tightened border security.
hes simply using this to distract us from MORE IMPORTANT issues, namely Iraq, the fascist patriot act etc.

and to those that are against immigration, go live in mexico under their conditions for ten years and tell me you wouldnt jump over a ****ing wall to get back to america you spoiled, ignorant dickheads.
Again, sweeping generalizations. Wages and benefits are much higher here.

Read my reply to your post in the other thread, I don't want to type it again.
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Old 05-16-2006, 07:25 PM #46
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It gets better . . . .

Mexico Threatens Suits Over Guard Patrols

Mexico is going to sue the US if the Guard troops detain illegal immigrants. . . .


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Old 05-16-2006, 07:29 PM #47
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The United States spends $3724.00 per person on health each year.

Japan spends $1759.00 per person on health each year.

France spends $2125.00 per person on health each year.

In 2000 the United States spent 12.9% of its gross domestic product on healthcare. American life expectancy is 74.24 years for men and 79.9 years for women. Infant mortallity rate is 6.82 deaths/1000 births. Over 60% of US health expenditures come from the pockets of individuals.

France spends 7.4 of its gross domestic product on health care. French life expectancy is 74.85 for men and 82.29 for women. Infant mortallity rate is 4.51 deaths/ 1000 births.

A World Health Organization analysis says that the US is ranked 37th in quality of healthcare. It also concluded that France is No.1 in quality of care with Italy coming in at No.2. Other countries like Singapore, Spain, Oman, Austria, and Japan round out the top 10.

In 2002 the number of people in the US without health insurance rose to 43.6 million. That number rose 4 million in just 2 years.
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Old 05-16-2006, 07:51 PM #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XOne
The United States spends $3724.00 per person on health each year.

Japan spends $1759.00 per person on health each year.

France spends $2125.00 per person on health each year.

In 2000 the United States spent 12.9% of its gross domestic product on healthcare. American life expectancy is 74.24 years for men and 79.9 years for women. Infant mortallity rate is 6.82 deaths/1000 births. Over 60% of US health expenditures come from the pockets of individuals.

France spends 7.4 of its gross domestic product on health care. French life expectancy is 74.85 for men and 82.29 for women. Infant mortallity rate is 4.51 deaths/ 1000 births.

A World Health Organization analysis says that the US is ranked 37th in quality of healthcare. It also concluded that France is No.1 in quality of care with Italy coming in at No.2. Other countries like Singapore, Spain, Oman, Austria, and Japan round out the top 10.

In 2002 the number of people in the US without health insurance rose to 43.6 million. That number rose 4 million in just 2 years.

France's Debt is 160% of their GDP

America's is 60%

Much of France's debt can be attributed to their failed socialistic agenda. it's system has brought about a failed economic policy that pushes it farther down the economic ladder.

Yeah, I'm all for those high taxes that stifle economic development. (Not a single French company is in the top 50)

Just because we spend more doesn't mean we spend it the same way. We tend to spend it on better things, and people here receive better medical opportunities then they do in socialistic countries like France or Canada.
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Old 05-16-2006, 09:34 PM #49
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Interesting that the 2 countries closest to economic collapse spend so much on socialized health care.

Edit: I am referring to France and Italy. A huge amount of American dollars go to fighting frivolous lawsuits. Anyone want to look up how many lawyers we have suing the pants off the medical industry compared to the rest of the world?

Last edited by 25bps : 05-16-2006 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 05-16-2006, 09:40 PM #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EL.DORITO

and to those that are against immigration, go live in mexico under their conditions for ten years and tell me you wouldnt jump over a ****ing wall to get back to america you spoiled, ignorant dickheads.
And from those of us whose entire family immigrated from poverty to America legally: Go **** yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I love Impulses
On a side note:
40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.

95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens

75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid by taxpayers.

Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles county are living in garages.

The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

^All from the LA TIMES

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops but 29% are on welfare
(www.cis.org)

The lifetime fiscal impact(taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE!

29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

You like the way our taxes are being spent?
Add to that the $9 billion per year CA spends on illegals, LA's collapsing school system, the 100-200 million people who over 20 years will be let in under the senates amnesty plan, and the terrorists being smuggled across the border, and this is the most pressing issue America faces. You'd have to be an ignorant dickhead to pretend like it needs to be ignored.

Last edited by 25bps : 05-16-2006 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 05-17-2006, 10:31 PM #51
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[quote=25bps terrorists being smuggled across the border,.[/QUOTE]
PLEASE. in conjunction with the border's current porosity, if terrorist really were/could use it, L.A.'d be burned to the ground.
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Old 05-17-2006, 10:49 PM #52
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Go look up the Millennium Plot. The only thing which stopped him from getting into the country was himself and his ******* decision to try and go through legally. He could have driven a few miles down and came right across.

Besides, with your vast knowledge of the inner workings of a terrorist cell, I'm sure your claim is fully substantiated. I mean, what terrorist doesn't promptly blow themselves up upon entering a country? Oh, I guess 9-11 hijackers must have been an exception....

If you want, I can go dig up all the articles about Arabs pretending to be Mexicans trying to get across the southern border and the deals with MS-13 to smuggle in Al-qaeda operatives.
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Old 05-17-2006, 11:27 PM #53
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I can think of a few better ways to combat fascism than welcoming in terrorists and economic burdens.

Besides, Americans hate each other. The notion of national "unity" is just a fantasy which was forgotten as quickly as 9-11.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilwombat
During the rise of Hitler, young boys were encouraged to join youth groups, enlist in the army, and work hard for a better country. Today, we are being told to do the same. Zomg, Fascism!

You both miss the point (I didn't make it all that clear). The point is that this new obsession with immigration is symptomatic of a new paradigm of security that developed after 9/11/01 that attempts to secure a new national identity. While all Americans may not agree, the discourse is still there (generaly propogated by the Right, but by no means exclusively, the Left is just as bad or worse in many ways). Insofar as fascism can best be defined as a desire for authoritarian governance, I think I can safely say that this new paradigm of security is, indeed, fascist. We wish to agree, we wish to conform, we wish to secure ourselves. We're still a melting pot, but if you come here you damn well better be the one melting because we sure as hell aren't. If you are different, you are a threat. If you are a threat, you "will be brought to justice or justice will be brought to" you. The very first thing a fascist nation does is secure its identity by establishing a dialectic between inside and outside, self and Other. We see this in the obsession with an external enemy (terrorist/immigrant in our case, as well as in the case of most western nations or non-aryan in the case of Nazi Germany).
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Old 05-17-2006, 11:36 PM #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
The very first thing a fascist nation does is secure its identity by establishing a dialectic between inside and outside, self and Other. We see this in the obsession with an external enemy (terrorist/immigrant in our case, as well as in the case of most western nations or non-aryan in the case of Nazi Germany).
Perfect summation of zack's case right here.

If you don't catch it this time, punch yourself in the groin 3 times.
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Old 05-17-2006, 11:37 PM #55
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I'm not saying that there isn't a general movement towards facism. This is especially true when you look at what is being done in the name of "protecting" the American public. However my point is that terrorists and tens of millions of illegals are threats in their own right. Why do I have to be obsessed to acknowledge that they are a real threat? What about securing the borders and then letting the "others" in legally?
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Old 05-17-2006, 11:44 PM #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 25bps
Why do I have to be obsessed to acknowledge that they are a real threat? What about securing the borders and then letting the "others" in legally?
That's his point though. We've hardline established a discongruity between the "us" and "them," so to speak.
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Old 05-17-2006, 11:51 PM #57
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That's his point though. We've hardline established a discongruity between the "us" and "them," so to speak.
Wouldn't the fact that we've established separate governments/countries be considered a hardline discongruity?

Edit: I am speaking in terms of before terrorism and illegals were threats. The difference goes back to the founding of separate countries.

Last edited by 25bps : 05-17-2006 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 05-18-2006, 12:06 AM #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
You both miss the point (I didn't make it all that clear). The point is that this new obsession with immigration is symptomatic of a new paradigm of security that developed after 9/11/01 that attempts to secure a new national identity. While all Americans may not agree, the discourse is still there (generaly propogated by the Right, but by no means exclusively, the Left is just as bad or worse in many ways). Insofar as fascism can best be defined as a desire for authoritarian governance, I think I can safely say that this new paradigm of security is, indeed, fascist. We wish to agree, we wish to conform, we wish to secure ourselves. We're still a melting pot, but if you come here you damn well better be the one melting because we sure as hell aren't. If you are different, you are a threat. If you are a threat, you "will be brought to justice or justice will be brought to" you. The very first thing a fascist nation does is secure its identity by establishing a dialectic between inside and outside, self and Other. We see this in the obsession with an external enemy (terrorist/immigrant in our case, as well as in the case of most western nations or non-aryan in the case of Nazi Germany).

Wrong.

The current issue of immigration came as people realized that people with little or no money who were not paying into the social system were pulling it down.

As day laborers started to organize in public areas to get picked up and made themselves more visible people began to look into the situation.

The idea of security comes from the basic theory of feudal civilization. One trades some freedoms for a sense of security. Both groups in theory benefit.

Of course America looks to immigrants with the idea that a+b=a, but we can do a+b=c as well, yet we will not go a+b=b.
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Old 05-18-2006, 12:07 AM #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 25bps
Wouldn't the fact that we've established separate governments/countries be considered a hardline discongruity?

Edit: I am speaking in terms of before terrorism and illegals were threats. The difference goes back to the founding of separate countries.
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Old 05-18-2006, 12:12 AM #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 25bps
Wouldn't the fact that we've established separate governments/countries be considered a hardline discongruity?

Edit: I am speaking in terms of before terrorism and illegals were threats. The difference goes back to the founding of separate countries.
Hey, I'm not saying I necessarily agree with him, I was just playing devil's advocate in trying to relay his point.

Zack's usage of the word "facism" is somewhat different (on the surface, mind you) than the casual form typically used.
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Old 05-18-2006, 12:41 AM #61
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QUESTION ST!!!!!

The National Guard is not a fedral unit. They are basically the State Militia, the federal government doesnt pay for them. Unless in time of war, or national emergency. Otherwise the STATE PAYS FOR THE GUARD. Does this mean the states that will be sending troops are gunna be paying for this? Does bush and the federal government have the juristiction under the consitution to use the guard...to sit on the border like goofs???
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Old 05-18-2006, 12:56 AM #62
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QUESTION ST!!!!!

The National Guard is not a fedral unit. They are basically the State Militia, the federal government doesnt pay for them. Unless in time of war, or national emergency. Otherwise the STATE PAYS FOR THE GUARD. Does this mean the states that will be sending troops are gunna be paying for this? Does bush and the federal government have the juristiction under the consitution to use the guard...to sit on the border like goofs???
That's why Bush asked governors to do so, and the Terminator is mad about the cost and the lack of rest the guard has from Iraq.

The federal government can just refuse grants though, which would hurt many states badly.
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Old 05-18-2006, 02:29 AM #63
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If left unchecked 200 million more will be here in 15 -20 years. Imagine the welfare and ss systems with those numbers.
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