Some people push back - Page 5 - PbNation
Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

 
Archived Thread - Cannot Edit  
Old 05-22-2006, 11:47 AM #85
Rugrat
 
 
Rugrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Van by the river
 has been a member for 10 years
Well if we want to paraphrase....
Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
Hypocritcal garbage and double standards
Glad to here that you think killing people is bad... So when you say
Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
We didn't get what we deserved, we got the very smallest fraction of it.
[sarcasm]Let me guess you're talkig about the ecomonic ramifacations of 9/11right?[/sarcasm]
Oh yes killing is bad, but when Americans get killed it's "we get what we deserve" because
Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
We pay taxes. I'm not a little Eichmann, by any means, but I AM a good, tax-paying, law-obeying German...er....I mean American.
which makes them "valid targets". So does if that apply to everyone? Oh yes how could I forget if we are talking about the US, everyone is a "Good tax paying American"; but if we are talking about another country then its all of a sudden
Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
We'll set aside the fact, for a moment, that we have killed people who WEREN'T tax payers for random regime X, but here's how it goes down in my mind.
Because you know countries outside the US just love to have disidents and anti-government revolutionaries living freely in their societies. I mean look at Iraq, Vietnam, and Cambodia (the three countries you brought up). They love anti-government dissents. [sarcasm]So I'm sure you are right, there are probably more disidents in Country X who don't pay taxes or support Government Y that we have bombed and killed than US citizens who don't pay taxes or actively speak out against our Government's actions both here in the US and abroad.[/sarcasm].

So then it becomes...
Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
No. The point of calling myself a military target (as well as everyone else who makes the US military/intelligence agencies operate effectively) is to destabalize the dichotomy between legitimate US violence and illegitimate terroristic violence.
And after I piont out that there is a difference between a terrorist planning for years to fly a plane full of men, women, and children in to the side of a building packed full of other men, women and children. Taking flying lessons so he can accomplish that mission. Then boarding an airplane and seeing all the people he will be killing in a few minutes. So he can Hi-jack that plane and purposely flying in to the side of the WTC and say.... An F-15 pilot aiming a laser guilded bomb at an Iraqi tank, only to have a control fin become stuck and tcause the bomb fall off target out of control blowing up an Iraqi house killing an innocent family. It all of a sudden becomes Not what you meant to say... What you really meant to say was...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack
The dichotomy I speak of is NOT between a soldier and a child, but between one soldier and another, between one child and another.
Oh I see.. There's no difference in what constitutes collateral damage and terroristic murder, never mind theh difference between intent and an accident. There is no diffenece Betwen a little child in an Iraqi house that is hit by a mulfuntioning 500 pound laser guilded bomb and a little child strapped in seat 15A on board Flight 175 smashing in to South Tower. But there is a monumental difference is the "Why's" for which they were killed. One was killed because of nothing more than random chance. The combining factors of a military target in the area, the malfuntioning of a bomb, and the new trajectory the bomb takes based on its malfuction, altitude, and speed of the fighter all combining to cause her death. Where as the other child, on the plane, just happends to be on the plane the terrorist CHOOSES to turn in to a flying bomb. [sarcasm]Your right there's no diference between the two events, no dichotomy at all.[/sacrasm]

So after all that; then it becomes...
Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
The point, again, is not that killing kids is the same as killing a soldier, but that ACCORDING TO OUR OWN MILITARY LOGIC THAT WE INSTITUTE WHEN WE BOMB PEOPLE both children and soldiers are acceptable targets. If it had been us attacking the world trade center, the logic would have been as such: the twin towers are part of the command and control structure of this country, making them targets, and the, say, kids inside the building are what we here in the US military like to call "acceptable collateral damange"
Oh yeah, silly me. [sarcasm]I forget our latest, duel purpose civillian airliner/cruise missile the Pentagon rolled out last week..[/sarcasm] So much for the "weapons" used lets look at the "target" itself. The US wouldn't attack the WTC of another country because it had no military value. Now I know this where you say "but it did have an office of the CIA in it".. One office, so when the terrorist where looking for military targets with in flying range of the airliners they didn't pick the White house, the capital, any one of the Army, Navy, Marine or Air Force bases in the area, the FBI or the CIA headquarters, instead they aimed for the WTC because they had a CIA office in it.... Better hit both towers just to make sure you get that office.... I think that covers the idiocy of yor justification there.

Finnally...
Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
For me to classify someone as a legitimate military target DOES NOT MEAN I think they should be killed. It means that I think, by military logic, they would be killed and THAT IS WHY THAT PARTICULAR LOGIC IS BAD. Duh...
[sarcasm]Oh yes, people you classify as "valid targets" should get a dozen roses and a box of chocolate[/sarcasm]... Let me clue you in on something, the people in the military don't one day just say "HOLY ****!!! Those "targets" are actually human beings!! I had no idea!"... Death for people in the military is something that they take seriously as THEY are the ones who kill AND the ones who die. It is something that sits heavy on their minds as NO ONE likes teh idea of killing innocent people, they don't want to live with that the rest of their lives. The military isn't some group of heartless killers who enjoy murdering people for no reason. They are professional soldiers, they know what the results of their actions are. Warfare isn't black and white, the reasons for it aren't either, but to try and imply that the military exercises the same morallity and constraint as a bunch of terrorists is laughable when you consider the restrictions we place upon ourselves, increasing the irsk to our own troops and lives, just to try and reduce the number of "innocent People" who get cuaght in the crossfire.

But what could I seriously expect for someone who believes this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
It's hard to say who the 9/11/01 hijackers spoke for, but they are heros for the fourth world, for those that don't even show up on the map, for those nameless, faceless millions whos blood oils empire. And they showed far more mercy than we've ever showed, far more restraint, far more courage and, most of all, far more humanity.
I think you're own words speak loud enough for you already.
__________________
CPPA #2701

Last edited by Rugrat : 05-22-2006 at 12:27 PM.
Rugrat is offline  
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 05-22-2006, 12:32 PM #86
X_Paint
Once dead, now alive.
 
X_Paint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
 has been a member for 10 years
Well said Rugrat.

What burns my cookies is that you and I (and so many others), served to provide the freedom for Zack and (yeesh) even Churchill to say such garbage.
__________________
Ego is the opiate that dulls the pain of being obviously stupid.
X_Paint is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 12:58 PM #87
$PJ$ (Banned)
 
$PJ$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Earth
$PJ$ is a Supporting Member
Our country has not fought for freedom in many many decades. You were in the military for money, plain and simple. Stop pretending serving is some special thing. You are not special, you are not defending our freedom.
$PJ$ is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 01:09 PM #88
X_Paint
Once dead, now alive.
 
X_Paint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by $PJ$
Our country has not fought for freedom in many many decades. You were in the military for money, plain and simple. Stop pretending serving is some special thing. You are not special, you are not defending our freedom.
Sorry, but you are assuming way too much. I was a college grad when I entered - if you think it was for the money you are GREATLY mistaken. The money is why I exited after my four years.

And until you put on a uniform and serve - you have no idea if serving is special or anything else. IMO

I joined because I believed it was the right thing to do - it was a sense of duty and honor that my father instilled in me.

I'd sugest you stop making such grandiose statements in assuming what people do and their motivations behind their actions. Some people are actually not shallow.
__________________
Ego is the opiate that dulls the pain of being obviously stupid.
X_Paint is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 03:10 PM #89
BCP Klaus
Sodomization happens!
 
BCP Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by $PJ$
Our country has not fought for freedom in many many decades. You were in the military for money, plain and simple. Stop pretending serving is some special thing. You are not special, you are not defending our freedom.
you really need to cease with your generalizations, not everyone that joins does so for money, many do it out of pride, and/or to challenge themselves or for a myriad of other reasons. I think this country would be a bit better off, in standing that is, if everyone had to serve in the military, I know many of you need structure and discipline, and to know what it's like risking your life for a cause, regardless of what that cause is.
__________________
Support my member
BCP Klaus is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 03:31 PM #90
4rtshark (Banned)
 
4rtshark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: five-one-six, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by $PJ$
He is referring to those who have no choice but to be in a war zone yet do not participate as innocent. There really no such thing as good or evil, that is nothing more than a political tool to drum up support for whatever agenda is trying to be pushed.
I'll concede that, as the saying goes, one man's insurgent is another's freedom fighter and there is two sides to a given issue, but you simply must balk and realize that a man shooting an 'insurgent' (someone clearly hostile to the western lifestyle and militant) is more wellfounded than someone killing a ruthless bigot who hasn't done anything and wouldn't materialize his hatred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by $PJ$
Our country has not fought for freedom in many many decades. You were in the military for money, plain and simple. Stop pretending serving is some special thing. You are not special, you are not defending our freedom.
the people above are right: you are assuming too much. if we electrochemically studied x_paint's brain, yes, maybe reimbursement DID outweight a sense of duty and service, but some people naturally feel obliged to fight for all that is great in this nation, and as far as you should be concerned, an outreaching beacon of freedom.


I stand by that phrase, too.
4rtshark is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 04:52 PM #91
X_Paint
Once dead, now alive.
 
X_Paint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4rtshark
the people above are right: you are assuming too much. if we electrochemically studied x_paint's brain, yes, maybe reimbursement DID outweight a sense of duty and service,
Yup you caught me -

Two thousand some odd a month take home (I think it averaged 2,600 in total) was soooo much better than the $50k I made after completing my time. Ya got me.
__________________
Ego is the opiate that dulls the pain of being obviously stupid.
X_Paint is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 05:24 PM #92
Rugrat
 
 
Rugrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Van by the river
 has been a member for 10 years
^^ That is the truth right there, it's sad that our military families qualify for WIC.

PJ- You can think what you want. Your opinion on the merits of serving the country are not my concern....

As for "Being Special", considering that the memebers of the military are required to maintain physical fitness and weight requirements, something that most of our fat-*** society seems unable to achieve on their own (please don't start crying about having genetic or physical problems causing Amercia to become the Land of the Fat and Lazy, I think we all that to be untrue) automatically makes them something out of the ordinary in American society. Couple that with the military's code of conduct and honor system, agian something the average American population seems unable to achieve on their own, and I think it is fair to say that being in the military DOES make you special when compared to the rest of our society.

Finally, To claim that our military does not defend our freedom is absurd as our counry's survival is due to our military might. America, and Western Europe, as independant "free" countries would not exist if America didn't have a military.
__________________
CPPA #2701
Rugrat is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 06:02 PM #93
SlingerXL
Stands to reason
 
SlingerXL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Bloomington, IN
SlingerXL is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugrat
Finally, To claim that our military does not defend our freedom is absurd as our counry's survival is due to our military might. America, and Western Europe, as independant "free" countries would not exist if America didn't have a military.
Right, but the sane argument isn't whether we need one or not, it's how big it should be.
SlingerXL is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 06:14 PM #94
Rugrat
 
 
Rugrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Van by the river
 has been a member for 10 years
^^ Good point, the situtation all ways comes down to "Guns Vs. Butter" and the pros and cons that come with making a chioce.. To bad our country has never been very good at finding a good balance bewteen the two.
__________________
CPPA #2701
Rugrat is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 06:23 PM #95
$PJ$ (Banned)
 
$PJ$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Earth
$PJ$ is a Supporting Member
If the "free" countries would not exist without America should they be free in the first place?
$PJ$ is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 06:39 PM #96
Rugrat
 
 
Rugrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Van by the river
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by $PJ$
If the "free" countries would not exist without America should they be free in the first place?
Should we allow the world to fall victim to tyranny simply because they can not defend themselves alone? We may not be able to "save" everyone but that doesn't mean we can not try to "save" at least some.

Personnally I think that keeping Europe from being "Liberated" by the Warsaw Pact was a good thing.
__________________
CPPA #2701
Rugrat is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 06:42 PM #97
$PJ$ (Banned)
 
$PJ$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Earth
$PJ$ is a Supporting Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugrat
Should we allow the world to fall victim to tyranny simply because they can not defend themselves alone? We may not be able to "save" everyone but that doesn't mean we can not try to "save" at least some.

Personnally I think that keeping Europe from being "Liberated" by the Warsaw Pact was a good thing.
Granted there are times when we should help, but never should we be the majority of the troops, equipment, etc when assisting another country.
$PJ$ is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 06:49 PM #98
Rugrat
 
 
Rugrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Van by the river
 has been a member for 10 years
^^ If I limit it to our past military operations with in the last 15 years I would fully agree with you PJ, but that's just my opinion. If I have to look at our entire history of our country's military operations I would be forced to disagree.
__________________
CPPA #2701
Rugrat is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 07:53 PM #99
smartestone1939
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by $PJ$
He is referring to those who have no choice but to be in a war zone yet do not participate as innocent. There really no such thing as good or evil, that is nothing more than a political tool to drum up support for whatever agenda is trying to be pushed.
r u really saying that things like nazism and comunism arnt evil? i bet none of the milions and milions of people killed by those ways of thinkin would agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
\
No, you missed the point. Try again.

The proper question is "how could there be any guilt?"
sorry, but YOU just don't get it. sometimes "guiltless" people die in wars. thats the way it is and it aint no mystery. you and churchill act like you came up with some big new theory about mankind. not hardly

war sucks and some inocent people die but the alternatve is for lots more inocent people to die if we dont defend this country. quit being such a phony know it all
smartestone1939 is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 07:57 PM #100
$PJ$ (Banned)
 
$PJ$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Earth
$PJ$ is a Supporting Member
The idea of Good/Evil is laughable at best. You refer to the millions killed by Germany or whoever and seem to forget this country was founded on the genocide of native americans, millions and millions of native americans. I guess that makes us "evil" too?

I do not pretend I know it all. Never have.

But one persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.
$PJ$ is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 08:55 PM #101
zack
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugrat

1. [sarcasm]Let me guess you're talkig about the ecomonic ramifacations of 9/11right?[/sarcasm]
Oh yes killing is bad, but when Americans get killed it's "we get what we deserve" because which makes them "valid targets". So does if that apply to everyone?

2. Oh yes how could I forget if we are talking about the US, everyone is a "Good tax paying American"; but if we are talking about another country then its all of a sudden Because you know countries outside the US just love to have disidents and anti-government revolutionaries living freely in their societies. I mean look at Iraq, Vietnam, and Cambodia (the three countries you brought up). They love anti-government dissents. [sarcasm]So I'm sure you are right, there are probably more disidents in Country X who don't pay taxes or support Government Y that we have bombed and killed than US citizens who don't pay taxes or actively speak out against our Government's actions both here in the US and abroad.[/sarcasm].

So then it becomes...


3. And after I piont out that there is a difference between a terrorist planning for years to fly a plane full of men, women, and children in to the side of a building packed full of other men, women and children. Taking flying lessons so he can accomplish that mission. Then boarding an airplane and seeing all the people he will be killing in a few minutes. So he can Hi-jack that plane and purposely flying in to the side of the WTC and say.... An F-15 pilot aiming a laser guilded bomb at an Iraqi tank, only to have a control fin become stuck and tcause the bomb fall off target out of control blowing up an Iraqi house killing an innocent family. It all of a sudden becomes Not what you meant to say... What you really meant to say was...
Oh I see.. There's no difference in what constitutes collateral damage and terroristic murder, never mind theh difference between intent and an accident. There is no diffenece Betwen a little child in an Iraqi house that is hit by a mulfuntioning 500 pound laser guilded bomb and a little child strapped in seat 15A on board Flight 175 smashing in to South Tower. But there is a monumental difference is the "Why's" for which they were killed. One was killed because of nothing more than random chance. The combining factors of a military target in the area, the malfuntioning of a bomb, and the new trajectory the bomb takes based on its malfuction, altitude, and speed of the fighter all combining to cause her death. Where as the other child, on the plane, just happends to be on the plane the terrorist CHOOSES to turn in to a flying bomb. [sarcasm]Your right there's no diference between the two events, no dichotomy at all.[/sacrasm]

So after all that; then it becomes...

4. Oh yeah, silly me. [sarcasm]I forget our latest, duel purpose civillian airliner/cruise missile the Pentagon rolled out last week..[/sarcasm] So much for the "weapons" used lets look at the "target" itself. The US wouldn't attack the WTC of another country because it had no military value. Now I know this where you say "but it did have an office of the CIA in it".. One office, so when the terrorist where looking for military targets with in flying range of the airliners they didn't pick the White house, the capital, any one of the Army, Navy, Marine or Air Force bases in the area, the FBI or the CIA headquarters, instead they aimed for the WTC because they had a CIA office in it.... Better hit both towers just to make sure you get that office.... I think that covers the idiocy of yor justification there.

Finnally...

5. [sarcasm]Oh yes, people you classify as "valid targets" should get a dozen roses and a box of chocolate[/sarcasm]... Let me clue you in on something, the people in the military don't one day just say "HOLY ****!!! Those "targets" are actually human beings!! I had no idea!"... Death for people in the military is something that they take seriously as THEY are the ones who kill AND the ones who die. It is something that sits heavy on their minds as NO ONE likes teh idea of killing innocent people, they don't want to live with that the rest of their lives. The military isn't some group of heartless killers who enjoy murdering people for no reason. They are professional soldiers, they know what the results of their actions are. Warfare isn't black and white, the reasons for it aren't either, but to try and imply that the military exercises the same morallity and constraint as a bunch of terrorists is laughable when you consider the restrictions we place upon ourselves, increasing the irsk to our own troops and lives, just to try and reduce the number of "innocent People" who get cuaght in the crossfire.

But what could I seriously expect for someone who believes this...

6. I think you're own words speak loud enough for you already.
1. Inforar as one enters into the realm of calculation, of who's killed more people, then yeah, we deserved 9/11/01. If we condemn violence, as I do, then no, they didn't deserve to die.
2. You're answering an argument I didn't make.
3. DO YOU THINK IT ****ING MATTERS TO THE DEAD WHETHER THEY WERE 'ACCEPTABLE COLLATERAL DAMAGE' OR THE TARGET!?! How ****ing DARE you hide behind "well, it was an accident, bombs malfunction, we can't help that. We know they malfunction and we accept that. Similarly, we accept that, when you bomb a 'legitimate target' sometimes civilians get in the way and die.

You're still missing something, so let me put it in big bold letters: ACCORDING TO US MILITARY LOGIC THE TWIN TOWERS WERE A LEGITIMATE TARGET. Now, does it really seem sound to you to say that we can exercise this logic when attack other countries but when it is used against us it's murder? Do you just not get this? Our military wouldn't even classify the twin towers as a civilian target. The kids in the building? To the military, they would be collateral damage.

4. Actually, you're wrong about that. That was in the original article as well as all of my subsequent posts.

5. If this is the logic you ascribe to, don't whine to me when people push back. We've killed far far far more than we've lost and we've killed in a far more brutal manner.

6. I stand by what I said.
zack is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 09:17 PM #102
殉教者 (Banned)
 
殉教者's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Washington
Zack, I'm gonna rape you when I come down to visit. Just wanted to let you know.
殉教者 is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 09:35 PM #103
smartestone1939
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by $PJ$
The idea of Good/Evil is laughable at best. You refer to the millions killed by Germany or whoever and seem to forget this country was founded on the genocide of native americans, millions and millions of native americans. I guess that makes us "evil" too?

I do not pretend I know it all. Never have.

But one persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.
OK, got it now. this country was founded on genocide of indians. youre completely brain dead
smartestone1939 is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 09:37 PM #104
$PJ$ (Banned)
 
$PJ$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Earth
$PJ$ is a Supporting Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartestone1939
OK, got it now. this country was founded on genocide of indians. youre completely brain dead
So what you are saying is you are too stupid to understand that we came to this country, killed off tons of native americans and stole their land?

And I am the one braindead?
$PJ$ is offline  
Old 05-22-2006, 11:03 PM #105
zack
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
 has been a member for 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 殉教者
Zack, I'm gonna rape you when I come down to visit. Just wanted to let you know.
Hawt?
zack is offline  
 




Posting Rules
Forum Jump