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Old 05-12-2006, 07:45 PM #22
Kerryh8er04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
Something else you should read (you can also download an mp3 of it from most p2p programs, I imagine) http://www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/s11/silence.html
good God give it a break zack...

We as a whole nation can't be held responable for what a few in our government do... the only thing we can do is vote for the thes that we most agree with... and it would help if most people would vote and take an educated vote, not an ignorant one, "Oh I guess this guy cuz my buddy at the bar said somthing about him." I mean we as a generation will never get our voice heard if we don't vote or better yet run for office. If you think your ideas are so great and wonderful then once you can get out there and run for some office. Untill then quite say how awful our government is, i think we all can tell Bush is an idiot for the most part. how ever i don't think everything that is going on is solely his fault, it can't be, for 'we' america have been doing bad things around the world and it just so happend that now we have pissed off enough people that most of the would dislikes us.
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Old 05-12-2006, 08:22 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlingerXL
Is every democrat that disagrees with the president's actions a living hypocrite? He disagrees with the government and is working towards change. That's about as American as it gets. By supporting America in taxes, etc, he's making the statement that he obviously thinks there's potential for change as there should be for any free society.
Did you take a gullible pill this morning? He hates this country and everything it stands for. Get real man.
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Old 05-12-2006, 08:24 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugrat
Not a hypocrite??? Working for change??? He's reamming his own side here for obeying the law and seeking peacefull means of protest against the Iraqi embargo, yet at the same time his sorry *** was sitting safe and sound behind his professors desk. I wouldn't call teh actions he is supporting "Working for change".


Ok so he's saying that the attack on teh WTC, carried out by "Combat Teams" was justified. But lets jump back to Churchill's earlier statement...

So lets get this straight.. According to Churchill its ok to fly civillian airplanes, packed full of defenceless civilians, in to unarmed civillian buildings but the US attacks CONSCRIPTED (meaning they where in the military) Iraqi troops, soldiers for christ sakes, is a crime against humanity and shame on us? How more hypocritical you want.
Thank you. At least someone in this thread doesn't have their head shoved completely up their ***.
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Old 05-12-2006, 08:59 PM #25
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Iraq invaded Kuwait because Saddam is a meglomaniac and believed all of the Arab world should be his

A bunch of ignorant Muslim asshats are the reason for the 9/11 attacks.
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Old 05-12-2006, 09:31 PM #26
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Zack, the rules cannot go both ways all the time always. You must come to realize this: that just because we state how and when we will attack someone does not mean that if ALL those situations line up, we deserve a domestic attack on civilians. And even if it is merited, when are all circumstances 100% the same?

Aside from the fact that 9/11 was committed under nonational banner (meaning it was not an Afghani/Saudi, etc military op), it would serve no strategical advantage whatsoever to an invasion or anything beyond a minor scrape to our entire armed forces. Even if we were attacked iraqi banks at the outset of the war to 'freeze funds', that directly furthers our purpose of debilitating Iraq in order to remove it's current dictator. Now ofcourse we didn't do that because that'd serve no purpose and deprive peasants of getting the dinars that buy their bread. We are not, as you have been disillusioned into believing: a blood drawing war machine. We are a conscientous albeit outreaching military giant attampting to at the VERY least use our influence for good.
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Old 05-12-2006, 11:28 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scumquat1
Did you take a gullible pill this morning? He hates this country and everything it stands for. Get real man.
So what, you want to take away his rights for criticizing America? I don't agree with him but he can hate America as much as he wants for all I care if he lives here. He has that right; it's not a privilege, it's a right. Even if he hates what America is right now, how does that make him a hypocrite for voicing his opinion? Are you a hypocrite every time you criticize a politician for ****ing something up even though you have done no action to help right the wrong or prevent the wrong in the first place?

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Old 05-13-2006, 08:36 AM #28
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Originally Posted by SlingerXL
So what, you want to take away his rights for criticizing America? I don't agree with him but he can hate America as much as he wants for all I care if he lives here. He has that right; it's not a privilege, it's a right.
Why don't you take 30 seconds and re-read what I said. Then tell me where I stated that I want to take away any of the nutty perfesser's rights. You really should try to stop making things up out of whole cloth. It makes you look silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlingerXL
Even if he hates what America is right now, how does that make him a hypocrite for voicing his opinion?
Again, re-read my comment below and also re-read what Rugrat posted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scumquat1
Churchill claims to be against everything this country stands for. He hates Capitalism and he hates the actions of our government. On the other hand, he supports the government by paying taxes and he also gets his salary from a state supported institution. I'm calling him a hypocrite... a living, breathing contradiciton. If he had any balls and any true sense of conviction when it comes to his hair-brained beliefs, he'd get the **** out of Dodge. He won't do that because he knows that almost anywhere else he goes, they'd throw his fake-Indian arse in prison to rot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlingerXL
Are you a hypocrite every time you criticize a politician for ****ing something up even though you have done no action to help right the wrong or prevent the wrong in the first place?
My God, you have a lot of trouble with reading comprehension. He's not just criticizing some politician for ****ing something up somewhere somehow. He's criticizing everything about this country and everything that forms its foundation. That being the case, he is a tremendous hypocrite for staying here and supporting what he thinks is the world's biggest problem: America.
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Old 05-13-2006, 08:56 AM #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zack
Beyond that, there's still that little issue of, oh, say, Palestine? As well as about a dozen other incidents. Ultimately, the chickens really ARE coming home to roost. We've commited attrocities from the very begining of our nations existence and now we've found that the road goes both ways. We STILL owe the world for Vietnam, for Cambodia, for the Balkans...hell, we have yet to repay the millions of Native Americans that we brutally slaughtered through the deliberate spread of small pox and systematic marginalization and extermination. What have we given them? Nuclear material on the tiny reservations we've forced them onto.
Sounds like your one dimensional post-modern education in US history is nearly complete. What's it like to be so young, so certain, so ideologically misguided and so predictably boring, all at the same time?
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Old 05-13-2006, 10:50 AM #30
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hell, we have yet to repay the millions of Native Americans that we brutally slaughtered through the deliberate spread of small pox and systematic marginalization and extermination. What have we given them? Nuclear
Ok first of all, it was a different time. There was no UN, or Geneva convention. It was survival of the fittest. If we have the power to take your land and you cant defend it, then whats stopping us?
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Old 05-13-2006, 10:51 AM #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scumquat1
Sounds like your one dimensional post-modern education in US history is nearly complete. What's it like to be so young, so certain, so ideologically misguided and so predictably boring, all at the same time?
So because History was taught in school? it MUST be the real way history happened...
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Old 05-13-2006, 01:44 PM #32
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Originally Posted by scumquat1
Sounds like your one dimensional post-modern education in US history is nearly complete. What's it like to be so young, so certain, so ideologically misguided and so predictably boring, all at the same time?
no points for proper use of the word one dimensional
- 12 points for grievously improper usage of the word post-modern

what are you mocking him for saying vietnam was our fault?
ur right, i mean hell they attacked us first in the gulf of tonkin...

oh wait, ya we fake that so we could attack them first didnt we?

well, u are right bout us not causing cambodia, we can wipe the blood off our hands there.

oh whats that? we caused the sovereign government of cambodia to collapse because we backed that prince guy who overthrew them and then let the khmer rouge take over? it is all our fault??


well, ok ok but the balkans bill clinton actually responded to, i mean we're heroes there.

wait, i forgot, we only responded after 2 genocides had already happened, and only intervened to stop the third and least deadly ethnic cleansing
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Old 05-13-2006, 01:48 PM #33
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Zack, the rules cannot go both ways all the time always. You must come to realize this: that just because we state how and when we will attack someone does not mean that if ALL those situations line up, we deserve a domestic attack on civilians. And even if it is merited, when are all circumstances 100% the same?

Aside from the fact that 9/11 was committed under nonational banner (meaning it was not an Afghani/Saudi, etc military op), it would serve no strategical advantage whatsoever to an invasion or anything beyond a minor scrape to our entire armed forces. Even if we were attacked iraqi banks at the outset of the war to 'freeze funds', that directly furthers our purpose of debilitating Iraq in order to remove it's current dictator. Now ofcourse we didn't do that because that'd serve no purpose and deprive peasants of getting the dinars that buy their bread. We are not, as you have been disillusioned into believing: a blood drawing war machine. We are a conscientous albeit outreaching military giant attampting to at the VERY least use our influence for good.

u make a good point, BUT!

u must realize that we are not so innocent. remember operation shock and awe, where we sent over 200 patriot missiles to strike targets?

none of them hit their targets, they all killed civilians. listen, we have this little thing called an air war that we've been doing since ww2. if we bomb the hel out of whole villages, the whole villages STILL DIE. we're still slaughterers. we just never SEE it. because hell we're up in the air. this is designed to strike terror into the population, and prevent any casualities on our side.

dont believe me? check the newspapers from 2 months ago, and even now. they admit that they are focusing more on an air war.
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Old 05-13-2006, 03:34 PM #34
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Originally Posted by LlamaRama
u make a good point, BUT!

u must realize that we are not so innocent. remember operation shock and awe, where we sent over 200 patriot missiles to strike targets?

none of them hit their targets, they all killed civilians. listen, we have this little thing called an air war that we've been doing since ww2. if we bomb the hel out of whole villages, the whole villages STILL DIE. we're still slaughterers. we just never SEE it. because hell we're up in the air. this is designed to strike terror into the population, and prevent any casualities on our side.

dont believe me? check the newspapers from 2 months ago, and even now. they admit that they are focusing more on an air war.
link please. Patriot missles are anti-aircraft missles. And please define what you mean by "newspapers" There are a LOT of newspapers in the world.
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Old 05-13-2006, 03:54 PM #35
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WTF! Now it's time to put the crack pipe down, tell whoever is teaching you this to get out of the bong smoke and listen to what your saying. Palastine, we were never there. Vietnam, we came in to help defend an invasion from the Communist north vs. Democratic south. VIETNAM WASN'T LOST UNTIL A CEASE FIRE WAS BROKERED AND WE PULLED OUR TROOPS AS PER THE AGREEMENT. Cambodia, thats Pol Pot and his crew, not us. Balkans, thats the Serbs vs. Croats, not us. You seriously have an issue with truths in these areas, perhaps a few good factual books would help you. But apparently, judgeing by your writing, if they don't say "US is the worst thing on earth" you won't read it.

Indians: no taxes, reservations that they solely control for the most part. Yes it sucked what happened to them, but that was what, 150 years ago? In that case I'm waiting for my apology for the Muslim invasions of Northern Africa, western europe, etc.

As for the bolded section: killing a bunch of people at work is hardly restraint. You have issues, I suggest you deal with them.



No, the Twin Towers were a privately owned business. The Pentagon was a military target. Again, FACTS help.
Actually, the twin towers had a CIA office in them, making them a military target and everything else collateral damage. Rules of engagement 101.

Anyway, the rest of what you say is largely wrong or irrelevent and I'm not interested in arguing, but we will have a history lesson.

We aren't in Palestine, but our guns are, our bombs are, I'm pretty sure some of our helicopters, jets and tanks are. We sell all kinds of **** to Israel and they kill Palestinians with it. Beyond that, we give them incredible political support.

Vietnam: actually, we supported south Vietnam in order to contest a democraticly elected communist government. Oops. But that's irrelevent. What matters is the tactics we used. We dropped napalm on random villages, we shot random people, we blew up random things. Remember, a dead Vietnamese is viet cong, right? That's one of the things you need to understand about these conflicts: this isn't about why or how the US got involved, it isn't about whether it was right or wrong, it's about the ****ing barbaric tactics we use to BUTCHER civilian populations. Depleted uranium, napalm, massive conventional bombings..."collateral damage". This isn't about governments pushing back, but the people of the world.

Did you know that they build houses out of unexploded US bombs in Laos? 30 years later... It's the single most bombed country in human history.

There was no genocide in the Balkans until NATO started bombing it. Clinton and his homeboys cooked up some rumors of genocide and then proceeded to begin one of the most barbaric bombing campaigns in history. Entire industrial districts were just leveled, for no reason. That country essentialy doesn't exist anymore. It's just a radioactive wasteland.

Natives: succesfully genocided and assimilated. Yeah, they got the good end of that one. Beyond that, the genocide continues to this day. We dump nuclear waste on their reservations, you know that right? We continue to mop up culturaly what we couldn't do militarily or biologicly.



And again, you're wrong. The 'terrorists' on 9/11 DID hold back. A few thousand bodies worth of blood is but a drop in the bucket next to what we've caused in the last, oh hell, say 60 years. Millions and millions are dead because of us, because of the tactics we use when we invaded or go to war with a country.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugrat
I wonder about our country when I read things like this. The thing that really gripes my *** to no end is the hypocracy and pure BS of these posts. People like Chruchill and our beloved Zack strut around saying we get what we deserve and yet they live just like everyone else, are just as guilty, and just as much of the problem. You're a part of the "We" slick.

I think it would be poetic justice if Zack's, or Mr. Chruchill's, family falls victim to a terrorist attack. They they would understand just what it means when they say "We get what we deserve".
I consider myself and my family a military target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scumquat1
Churchill claims to be against everything this country stands for. He hates Capitalism and he hates the actions of our government. On the other hand, he supports the government by paying taxes and he also gets his salary from a state supported institution. I'm calling him a hypocrite... a living, breathing contradiciton. If he had any balls and any true sense of conviction when it comes to his hair-brained beliefs, he'd get the **** out of Dodge. He won't do that because he knows that almost anywhere else he goes, they'd throw his fake-Indian arse in prison to rot.

Frankly, I get a little sick of listening to people like Zack and Churchill prattle on about the banality of concepts like good and evil. They're beyond good and evil. Such ideas are meaningless, yet they certainly don't have a problem passing judgement on America. What a bunch of assclowns.
Actually, the last thing Churchill is is beyond good and evil. He's actually a very moralistic person. I'm not a big fan of much of what he writes, he's far far too angry for me, I must be honest, but this article is fantastic. If you interpret it as a "we got what we deserved" you aren't reading closely enough. He mourns the acts on 9/11/01 as the innevitable outcome of a violent history. No one, in my mind, DESERVES to die. For me, 9/11/01 is a tragedy. It's the point where 60ish years of horrific violence come home to the people that support it and, instead of being a moment for all of humanity to step back and say "dear god, what have we done" we merely redouble our efforts to kill kill kill as fast as we ****ing can. 9/11/01 makes me sad whenever I think about it. I don't see it as a revolution, I don't see it as desirable, I see it as a tragic sign of the times, a sign of what has happened and what will continue to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerryh8er04
good God give it a break zack...

We as a whole nation can't be held responable for what a few in our government do... the only thing we can do is vote for the thes that we most agree with... and it would help if most people would vote and take an educated vote, not an ignorant one, "Oh I guess this guy cuz my buddy at the bar said somthing about him." I mean we as a generation will never get our voice heard if we don't vote or better yet run for office. If you think your ideas are so great and wonderful then once you can get out there and run for some office. Untill then quite say how awful our government is, i think we all can tell Bush is an idiot for the most part. how ever i don't think everything that is going on is solely his fault, it can't be, for 'we' america have been doing bad things around the world and it just so happend that now we have pissed off enough people that most of the would dislikes us.
Was that Eichmann I just heard?



I leave much of what you folks say unanswered because you bore me.


On Churchill: who cares? What does the author have to do with any of this?

Last edited by zack : 05-13-2006 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 05-13-2006, 04:05 PM #36
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And because I think it needs to be done, a clarification of intent: this is not a call to arms, this is not a call for the fall of US hegemony, this is not a glorification of the events of 9/11/01, this is not about who was right or wrong in conflict X. This is a call to think, I ask all of you to stop thinking in terms of petty statist politics and step back, as yourself why these things happened. Stop identifying with a given faction or country and ask "what made this happen? How can we stop it?" One thing I know for certain is that we cannot go on as we are. 9/11/01 is not an unballancing of a generaly good global order, but the sign of the horrific and violent nature of that very order. Something massive has to change (and I think it is). Here's the truth: we live in an age of transition. The fall of the Soviet Union was the begining and the fall of the US will be the end of this transition. We've been baited into a war that, by definition, has no end and we will fight it until we can't fight anymore. Now, this war can go on with the great imperial giant punching puddles with cruise missles or we, as those that run empire, can try to make the fall of the US a bit less violent. We might even save our own lives...we might even save our conscience. Something the world has yet to learn: responsibility is not the same as guilt. Guilt is a condemnation, responsibility is a call to action. We are ALL responsible for the actions of our government and it is time that we took up this call to action and help the world make a peaceful transition to whatever it's becoming.
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Old 05-13-2006, 04:21 PM #37
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Originally Posted by scumquat1
Sounds like your one dimensional post-modern education in US history is nearly complete.

What's it like to be so young, so certain, so ideologically misguided and so predictably boring, all at the same time?
Churchill hate's post-modern academia, actually. If this were where I got my history lesson, the last thing it would be is post-modern. Do you want to know where I learn history? My ****ing highschool. You don't have to go to left wing academia to think like me.

I also object to your portrayal of me as merely young and stupid.
1. I think it's fundamentaly ageist.
2. It's assumptive of some sort of proper ideology (something which straight up doesn't exist).
3. You're wrong: if I'm predictable, it's because you're smart enough to predict my evolution as a thinker, not because I'm stuck on one thing.

6 months ago I'd start an argument about this, but it seems sorta silly to me now. I'm not really going to try to defend myself or take some shot at you like "sounds like something someone says when they don't have a real argument" because I know that's just silly. I'll just say this: next time you want to attempt to communicate with me, I'd appreciate the same respect I afford you here.
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Old 05-13-2006, 04:59 PM #38
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I read the article and now I want that 5 minutes of my life back.
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Old 05-13-2006, 05:00 PM #39
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No one, in my mind, DESERVES to die.
We never finished our argument about this. It was in the Tookie thread right before you left. Let's assume a house is full of 1000 7 year olds. A man walks in, ties them all up, proceeds to rape them, and afterwards he kills them through various tortuous means: making them drink draino, burning them alive, dismemberment, etc, etc. All beg for their lives to be spared. He deserves to just carry on with his life as if nothing ever happened?

Edit: and yes, I realize you said they don't deserve to die, but I really don't know how you can justify one persons right to punish another and then say that killing them is crossing the line.


I could care less about the rest of this thread. You can nit-pick all you want about where America has been wrong. I agree with some of it, but with regards to Palestine: Who was the one who rejected the plan for 2 separate nations, carried out an unsuccessful attempt to take all the land, and then resorted to bombing school buses full of children? The Israelis? Damn history really does need to be re-written.

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Old 05-13-2006, 05:10 PM #40
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you people need to quit being tree huggers... Jim48639874759827973 lol you are correct... these people need to get FACTUAL information not from biased fools. you guys all niave if you belive what that idot said. i dont know how you people hate america so much, God forbid if you were in anyother country and you said something like this you would have your tounge cut off. point being said... if you dont like america then GET OUT!!!! then will see how much you hate America and think they suck. go live in somilia for a month. then post back here on what you think of america
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Old 05-13-2006, 05:25 PM #41
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Originally Posted by noobkiller123
you people need to quit being tree huggers... Jim48639874759827973 lol you are correct... these people need to get FACTUAL information not from biased fools. you guys all niave if you belive what that idot said. i dont know how you people hate america so much, God forbid if you were in anyother country and you said something like this you would have your tounge cut off. point being said... if you dont like america then GET OUT!!!! then will see how much you hate America and think they suck. go live in somilia for a month. then post back here on what you think of america
I love how you countered all of their facts.

In case you are unaware but this country was founded by people who could not follow the rules.
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Old 05-13-2006, 05:41 PM #42
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Location: Cleveland, Ohio
because they were being persicuted and punsihed and wanted a way out where the could have their belifes and be free an not have to worry about anyone punishing them for it, anyways yea me > you lol
noobkiller123 is offline  
 




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