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Old 04-06-2006, 04:30 PM #43
pbgames
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSGSplatmaster
"IMO all this complaining has only showed us customers what profit local stores have been making...bad move. I'm not so sure that I feel obligated to continue paying to support my local store at those numbers."

Because God forbid a business owner makes a profit. Hey guess what buddy, buying something online is still filling someone's pockets. They're making a killing off kids like you. If you're so reluctant to give your money to someone, might as well build your own gun.
Try a class in reading comprehension. I'm one of the guys that SUPPORTS his local pro shop and field at any cost. I DO NOT BUY ONLINE unless it is a product that the local store does not carry. But it amazes me that PAINTBALL business owners continually blame the customer or blame the manufacturer for their failing business.

If you can't survive, maybe your not a very good businessman. Hence my post on NOT TELLING THE WHOLE WORLD WHAT YOUR PROFIT MARGIN IS.

And if that's all you got out of my post then i guess I'm wasting my time responding anyways.
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Old 04-06-2006, 04:40 PM #44
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Iv'e always hated Smart Parts! This is just icing on the cake! Maybe they will divert their umpteen cold blooded patent lawyers into finding them a slick excuse as to why no warning was given to dealers, if that is the case. I wouldn't know, I wouldn't be associated with the PA based company if they paid me to.
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Old 04-06-2006, 04:46 PM #45
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"Did anybody else catch the statistic in the new PB2extremes stating that marker sales make up only 11% of paintball sales? i would assume that SP products make up a fraction of that percentage."

It pays to sell the service and not the equipment, all equipment sales leaves you with is customer complaints. It's hard to turn a profit on the equipment end and plus your soaking budget with the initial investment and sometimes you have to wait months for the sale.

IMO all this complaining has only showed us customers what profit local stores have been making...bad move. I'm not so sure that I feel obligated to continue paying to support my local store at those numbers."

Whatever idiots released this information are breaking contract with their vendor...hence why verification should be processed before field owner is allowed to participate in this section. Than again, for all we know it is some kid making up his figures trying to start a flaming contest.
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Old 04-06-2006, 04:57 PM #46
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Whatever idiots released this information are breaking contract with their vendor...hence why verification should be processed before field owner is allowed to participate in this section. Than again, for all we know it is some kid making up his figures trying to start a flaming contest.[/quote]

I've been waiting for a store owner to comment on this.(I'm assuming you own a store) Stores are cannibilizing their own sales. Smart Parts tried to help store owners with the MAP. The Ion was the hottest thing on the market and there was a competition to see who could sell it the cheapest!

On Saturday it came out at a price drop of $225 and in 15 minutes it was advertised for $199. Who is to blame for that? Now seriously, if you knew they would sell, would you rather stock 5 Ion's or 1 timmy? The cost of inventory is the same yet you have the potential to sell upgrades, hoppers, air systems and gear to 5 customers as opposed to 1.

Will somebody please explain (knowledgeably and intelligently) how this is a bad thing for store owners. (please leave the morality thing out of it. I bet you used 5 consumer products today that some crackpot group considers "morally or politically" incorrect)
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Old 04-06-2006, 05:44 PM #47
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far as i see it it is only bad for the stores that had purchased the ions before the drop another point i see is that this is the easiest bussiness to infiltrate as a consumer wanting to know wholesale prices and even get things at wholesale prices just goes to show that this is a CUTTHROAT BUSSINESS and "for the love of the game " is just a big lie some people tell themselves

there are a lot of stores out there screaming this is wrong well what are you gonna do i mean you whine and cry and in the end all it has accomplished is making the rest of the stores look bad. if the ion is your only thing in stock then ya your probly right but but other than that there is no reason that a true store/proshop should be crying this much over one marker
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Old 04-06-2006, 05:47 PM #48
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Old 04-06-2006, 05:47 PM #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbgames
On Saturday it came out at a price drop of $225 and in 15 minutes it was advertised for $199. Who is to blame for that? Now seriously, if you knew they would sell, would you rather stock 5 Ion's or 1 timmy? The cost of inventory is the same yet you have the potential to sell upgrades, hoppers, air systems and gear to 5 customers as opposed to 1.

Will somebody please explain (knowledgeably and intelligently) how this is a bad thing for store owners. (please leave the morality thing out of it. I bet you used 5 consumer products today that some crackpot group considers "morally or politically" incorrect)
One customer who comes in to your shop will buy either one Ion or one Timmy. He will not buy either one Timmy or 5 Ions, he only needs one marker! This is what some ppl in this industry does not understand. If you make 20% on an Ion and 10% margin on a Timmy, you still make more money selling one Timmy than selling one Ion.
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Old 04-06-2006, 05:55 PM #50
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I have a ion ill admit it and its been good to me surprisingly. The price drop does infact suck for stores that already have them. But by putting on a few upgrades on them qlock on/off trigger maybe a new barrell anyone that comes in and actualy knows a thing or two will go for that since it has the basic upgrades a ion needs.
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:41 PM #51
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this is a bit funny in a warped sense. here we have the customer side asking store owners why their crying about the abrupt unannounced price drop. that is an absurd question. this customer has not lost a red cent and just blowing wind out their hind quarters. you did not pay $950 wholesale for a nerve that sat on the shelf for the past 2 years because you had it for sale at stipulated map pricing and now have to absorb a 50% loss listing it at 1/2 the price you paid for it initially. and it's still sitting there unsold because someone ordered it online so all they had to pay was shipping to avoid state and local taxes. once that local shop you used to go to closes down, remember how convenient it was to go there to buy that last minute item that broke on your equipment for that important tourney or event the next day. now you will either pay $20 for next day shipping or just miss out because the part you wanted is 1000 miles away.

if the customer just lost $450 from a local business, you can be damned sure they'd be plastering negativity all around the neighborhood and the net about this terrible atrocity bestowed upon you. yet you dis store owners because they have the nerve to complain about the same thing happening to them because y'all generalize that anybody that owns a business is rich. you have no idea what it takes to run a business. all you see is what you want to which is everything on the surface. that's 75% of what it takes to run a business.

and then you elude how business owners are not in it for the love of the game. people start a business to make money, not give it away and/or lose it. someone said that store owners look bad because they are crying about loosing money yet the customers of today have become a bunch of pig headed greedy morons that think they for some reason are entitled to the same benefits of a business owner merely because they may know what the wholesale price of items they seek are.

i truly believe if i was a store owner and offered you everything i owned for free, 50% or you would take everything i own and leave me on the street with a 'i will work for food' sign, 25% would want to pay below wholesale and 25% might offer me a small profit margin knowing that just taking and not giving in return is morally improper. business owners look bad meh, take a look at yourselves in the mirror.

end of rant..............where's my dodgy?
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:19 PM #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iKNOW
One customer who comes in to your shop will buy either one Ion or one Timmy. He will not buy either one Timmy or 5 Ions, he only needs one marker! This is what some ppl in this industry does not understand. If you make 20% on an Ion and 10% margin on a Timmy, you still make more money selling one Timmy than selling one Ion.
If someone comes into the shop looking to buy a new gun, most of the people looking at getting an Ion are not the same people who are looking to get a Timmy. Usually people will go in with a certain price range in mind, and a new Timmy and an Ion hardly fall into the same price bracket.

Your ( as a store owner ) price of inventory is the same for 5 Ions or 1 Timmy (in this example, I don't have the dealer prices on hand) - that means that you can stock 5 Ions or 1 Timmy at the same cost to you. If someone comes in and buys an Ion, there's a good chance that they will also be buying more of their setup (a hopper, air tank, etc). With those 5 Ions you may sell a few air tanks and a few hoppers, as well as other accessories like feednecks, new triggers, etc. If someone buys the Intimidator instead, you will probably sell at most one air tank and a hopper (never mind the fact that Intimidators are out of the price range of most beginners, and the person who buys it will most likely already own a compressed air tank and hopper).

Yes, dealers did get stiffed if they bought an Ion at the old dealer price and now have to sell it at the new price. But it is not like this is the first time that a manufacturer has dropped their prices, or the first time within the paintball industry. It seems to me that in many peoples eyes Smart Parts can do nothing but wrong. Think of how many more people will be able to finally afford an electro gun. I paid more for my first mechanical blowback than an Ion now costs. It's difficult to compete even on rec-ball days as a beginner, and it's even harder when you're a beginner very basic equipment.

If you, as a store, decide to keep an item on hand and in inventory, it is because you thought that you could sell it for more than you paid for it. Unless you're already doing good business selling high-end guns, it's not in your best interest to keep expensive guns on hand. This is one reason why the shop that I used to work for wouldn't stock any guns beyond basic blowbacks (everything else would be ordered with a down payment).
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:42 PM #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportdeamon89
I agree with iKNOW, that statistic is absurd. You say it's mainly because the cutomer doesn't know how to do something, so show them the ins and outs of the gun before u send them out the door with it. We've been selling probably 2 Ions a week since last June, and a very large majority of them DO NOT come back. This is because before the customer purchases the gun, we teach them as much as they are willing to listen to. The only Ions that come back are from the customers who didn't care about learning how to maintain the gun and keep it in good working order, or ones that have busted noids or boards.
No, no, no...
"I've played two days and it won't turn on"- change the battery
"I've played a month and it won't shoot"- lube it
Maybe one in 8-9 come back with any REAL problem and most are user error. Once again I will say, the only true flaw in the Ion is the plastic solenoid barb, and even with that, it is still very reliable. Many people who buy Pirrannas and Tippmanns come back once also. They forget that thier hopper only feeds 3bps and have a habit of making soup and blaming it on the gun...

When customers come in to buy something I already have the trigger adjusted and the battery in. I tell them they will want to put in a new battery asap and to lube it once a month. I tell them that when the month is up, or they really want to know how to lube it for whatever reason, I'll take them through it when we are not as busy (we are mainly a field, with a shop on site and my main job is to be on the field keeping little kids from loosing their eyesight ).
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Old 04-06-2006, 09:04 PM #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamorte
this is a bit funny in a warped sense. here we have the customer side asking store owners why their crying about the abrupt unannounced price drop. that is an absurd question. this customer has not lost a red cent and just blowing wind out their hind quarters. you did not pay $950 wholesale for a nerve that sat on the shelf for the past 2 years because you had it for sale at stipulated map pricing and now have to absorb a 50% loss listing it at 1/2 the price you paid for it initially. and it's still sitting there unsold because someone ordered it online so all they had to pay was shipping to avoid state and local taxes. once that local shop you used to go to closes down, remember how convenient it was to go there to buy that last minute item that broke on your equipment for that important tourney or event the next day. now you will either pay $20 for next day shipping or just miss out because the part you wanted is 1000 miles away.

if the customer just lost $450 from a local business, you can be damned sure they'd be plastering negativity all around the neighborhood and the net about this terrible atrocity bestowed upon you. yet you dis store owners because they have the nerve to complain about the same thing happening to them because y'all generalize that anybody that owns a business is rich. you have no idea what it takes to run a business. all you see is what you want to which is everything on the surface. that's 75% of what it takes to run a business.

and then you elude how business owners are not in it for the love of the game. people start a business to make money, not give it away and/or lose it. someone said that store owners look bad because they are crying about loosing money yet the customers of today have become a bunch of pig headed greedy morons that think they for some reason are entitled to the same benefits of a business owner merely because they may know what the wholesale price of items they seek are.

i truly believe if i was a store owner and offered you everything i owned for free, 50% or you would take everything i own and leave me on the street with a 'i will work for food' sign, 25% would want to pay below wholesale and 25% might offer me a small profit margin knowing that just taking and not giving in return is morally improper. business owners look bad meh, take a look at yourselves in the mirror.

end of rant..............where's my dodgy?

DAMN STRAIGHT!
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Old 04-06-2006, 09:45 PM #55
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Ok, for those complaing about getting Ions and other SP stuff before the the Press Release. Well I dont know who you guys got your guns from, National? But SP's sales reps told any dealer to wait cause hint you need to wait till the "price drop" happens. Now I know it would be nice if they told us months before, but think I know we wouldn't have all been able to hold back and not tell other ppl, also we would all sell below the current MAP before the drop. Alll other companies do the same thing with all their guns I see no difference with SP than dye, and etc... You do know all Reps and workers have to sign a contract to disclose the information they know about any new products or price drops.

Also to back up SP's price drop all stores should have recieve a letter from the gardners. They want to help the market of paintball. Make it easier for kids to get into the tournament scene. Yes were not making much on the mark up but his main cause was the aftermarket sales, the Ion is one of the highest aftermarket resale markers. This is where the stores are making the money. Yes is sucks now for those stuck breaking even but its better in the long run...
As far as the reliabiltiy of the Ion, to back up JOM. Well i see a problem with the ion and reliability but not on default of SP but the user. Because the low cost anyone is buying this marker. This marker is the only true I would say tournament ready marker. The features on this gun are too complicated for the average Joe to take care of. You know how many ppl that come to me with problem with just a dieing battery? Eventually it will all even out with the cost of paintball hopefully following SP.
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Old 04-06-2006, 09:52 PM #56
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i didnt really read all of this so idk if this was said already but the 30 day warning thing isnt gonna work becuz if u bought a nerve for 945 and u have them in stock and smart parts says in 30 days we r gonna drop the price to 495 (or drop it even little), do u think ppl r gonna spend an extra almost 500$ when they can wait a month and save big $$

just a thought
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Old 04-06-2006, 09:53 PM #57
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I'm usually a pretty big Smart Parts supporter. I like their products and their teams, the whole patent thing in my opinion is playing in the grey area, it's big business tactics in a small business world... Oh well.

This doesn't necessarily sit all that well with me. I don't really see a need for a price drop on the ION, people were buying them for $300 at the same rate as they'll be buying them for $200, it's only cutting out the shop owners profit.

I do agree though that the ION is easy to do tech work on. I've been in the position of instructing people on how to take care of their equipment and also taking care of customers problems when they don't take care of it. The actual problems that occur with IONs can be fixed by utilizing the warranty Smart Parts places on them.

I just think stores should have had fair warning that the price was gonna drop like that so they could try to clear some of their stock. I don't feel bad for stores because they cut each others throats by having price wars in the first place. Everybody was set up to make a profit and some just got too greedy with it.
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:17 PM #58
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I'm not worried about any loss from the price drop on Ions in inventory. Ions are only 10% of our gun inventory. Its all the other guns in inventory that are now too highly priced compared to the Ion. Then the double wammie when other manufacturers drop their price. The first question you need to ask any vender other than Smart Parts is "what kind of price protection are you giving me". Smart Parts is now safe to order from. No other manufacturer is.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:13 PM #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintball4848freak
i didnt really read all of this so idk if this was said already but the 30 day warning thing isnt gonna work becuz if u bought a nerve for 945 and u have them in stock and smart parts says in 30 days we r gonna drop the price to 495 (or drop it even little), do u think ppl r gonna spend an extra almost 500$ when they can wait a month and save big $$

just a thought
They're talking about just informing dealers. That way they can put them on sale to clear them out. And that's what SP should have done.

Luckily, I just sold the last Ion I had in so I'm ok.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:59 PM #60
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Warning dealers in advance won't work simply because the news will get leaked to PbN, 68caliber, smacktalk, p8ntballer, pbstar, and just about every other site with good gossip an hour after the first dealer hears about it.

However, if SMART PARTS didn't HATE DEALERS they could easily soften the blow on this. The new dealer price is apparently still profitable to them. Now they didn't magically reduce their manufactuing cost over the weekend, so that new price also would have been profitable for the last few monthes. Smart Parts could very easily announce that they will refund the difference between the new price and the old price for all Ions purchased by dealer in their last order if their last order was in the last 2 or 3 monthes.

If they want to take full advantage of this, they can limit it to dealers who buy from Smart Parts directly and encourage people to skip the middlemen in the future.

By limiting this to only the last order, SP will minimize the refunds on guns that were sold before the drop.

If SP did this, they woud still retain the same profit on those sales as they are getting from Ions now, so they can't claim that they are cutting their wrists with this policy.

This is sadly not a new problem. Remember last year when Dye dropped the prices on Proto Matrixes halfway through the year? Fortunately most stores don't overstock those like they do with Ions, but it still sucked to have a dust collector on the wall that was eventually sold at cost or less. Paintball manufacturers need to stop this "surprize, you're f***ed!" bulls**t that they love to pull on dealers. Dropping prices around Cup when the next years line of gear comes out is OK - we all know it's coming. Dealers know better than to stock up on Dye C6 gear at the beginning of OCtober because they know it will be obselete in a month.

Car companies ave solved this problem a long time ago. If they fel the need to drop prices, they do so with REBATES! Dealers don't get screwed and thus they can stock their lots with confidence. If SP offered an $85 rebate at the time of sale for Ions, it would have the same effect, but wouldn't screw over their dealers.
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Old 04-07-2006, 12:47 AM #61
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Sorry but I just cannot stay away from this thread.

As a businessman, it is YOUR responsibility to manage your inventory. Why do you think they have a Dollar store on every corner? Do you really think all that stuff only cost a buck?

In reference to you losing $450 on a marker. Big Deal. You had it for 2 years. Try having a $105,000 pink Mercedes 500sl in your inventory for 6 months with a floor plan that costs 1% a month. You do the math.

Maybe one of those "pig headed greedy morons" your reffering to would have bought it 18 months ago at a reduced price. MAP means you cannot advertise it at a lower price. You can legally sell it for any price you want, even below wholesale. The manufacturer is not allowed to tell you what to sell it for. That would be price fixing and that would be illegal.

How many Ion's sold last year? Over 100,000 right. Where did the $8,500,000 in profit go?
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Old 04-07-2006, 02:00 AM #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperalias
However, if SMART PARTS didn't HATE DEALERS ...
Yes, Smart Parts hates dealers so much that for a long time they forced dealers to sell an extremely popular gun at an $85 profit on a $199 cost (42% markup? not bad, try to get that on most other gun brands), they enforce MAP pricing to to help out smaller dealers, and when they sell an item to the public, they do it at MSRP (instead of selling their own items to the public at the market going price at their online outlet *cough*).
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Old 04-07-2006, 02:34 AM #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbgames
..........In reference to you losing $450 on a marker. Big Deal. You had it for 2 years. Try having a $105,000 pink Mercedes 500sl in your inventory for 6 months with a floor plan that costs 1% a month. You do the math.
you say big deal because you are most likely one of those that hasn't lost a cent. what does a pink mercedes have to do with paintball markers and why do people always relate paintball markers to cars? you obviously looked at my post but not into it at all. amof you didn't seem swift enough to remotely catch a portion of the gist of what i was getting at in my post or what i was illustrating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbgames
..........Maybe one of those "pig headed greedy morons" your reffering to would have bought it 18 months ago at a reduced price. MAP means you cannot advertise it at a lower price. You can legally sell it for any price you want, even below wholesale. The manufacturer is not allowed to tell you what to sell it for. That would be price fixing and that would be illegal......
another paragraph illustration you don't know what you're talking about. when the prices dropped to $950, did sp's spruce goose nerve sell? if it had, the price wouldn't be retailing at $450 now would it? at $950 it was still setting on the wall collecting dust. you have no awareness of your surroundings at all otherwise you'd know exactly what my greedy comment was all about. look around these forums and past your nose.

your map and legality comments are quite entertaining as well. what is map? the manufacturer telling you what price to sell it for. if you don't know what's going on between lagalities and map(in reality by manufacturers that actually enforce it) then i suppose you should go on thinking in those shallow realms. i'm a manufacturer and i want my products sold at a certain price. if i find that you are selling them for less than my request i'm certainly not going to be shallow enough to tell you i will not send you product. i may in fact have all of the products that you want on backorder though. every time you call for updates i'll tell you, "i appologize for the inconvenience. you're still on the list. don't call us, we'll call you when we're ready to ship" lol. you can go to the middle man for your products if he's not reluctant to sell to you either. legailties lol, i'll bet you have a swift lawyer as well.
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