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Old 01-10-2006, 11:00 PM #22
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is location a factor? because im in Ca and all the fields here are byop, the only ones that are fpo are indoor. do your states have trouble attracting players? im just curious and know nothing about running a field and dont plan on running one any time soon.
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Old 01-11-2006, 01:58 AM #23
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there's no need for going byop.
just make prices on paint affordable, i don't mean like internet store affordable but i don't think $45 for a case of xball is a lot. but when field start charging $55 for a case of premiun, that's when i go somewhere else.
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Old 01-11-2006, 05:20 AM #24
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FPO compared to BYOP

What one must always do when confronted with such toughts is sit down and do price comparison. Most field owner will agrre that once you've gone down that road of BYOP your almost guaranteed never being able to bring it back like it once was.

I hear especially this past year that alot of fields have not done has well has previous years, at least this is our case up North. But this is an industry problem, not a local field problem. Things normally come back to normal after a while. My personal belief is that with guns throwing 10 to 15 balls per second, kids these days can't afford to throw 1500 rounds of good quality paint, they just want to spray 1500 of the cheap Walmart stuff.

Stick with FPO and like some have posted in other thread try to expand to different markets, you'll be surprised what you can attract for business and church groups. Also try to organize some birthday parties, and do price bundle including pizzas, I know it sounds old fashion but when I started 14 years ago this worked and also try get family reunions this also works great.
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Old 01-11-2006, 06:31 AM #25
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While I'm not a huge fan of FPO it's not for the reason that most of the people here have mentioned...namely price. I don't mind going to a field like EMR or Skirmish and having to pay a bit extra for the quality of the field. What irks me is that the quality of the paint is lacking. If you're going to hit me up for $80 as a rec player, PLEASE make sure the paint is quality. I shot Severe Hurricane (along with several other Intimidator Owners) last spring and spent more time cleaning out barrel breaks (and then my hopper) due to the paint being so bad. $80 is much easier to tolerate if it's decent paint (X-Ball brone, Blaze, PMI Premium...)

I like to use the same paint brand over and over as I like to use what works. Not only for the types of games I play but what shoots well and consistently from my marker...which is a gripe of mine about most FPO locations...the lack of selection. One of the things I like about Pevs@AG is that it's BYOP BUT for private groups they require FPO at $65 a case (pretty reasonable IMHO) to eliminate bad experiences with el cheapo Wal Mart paint breaking all throughout the rentals. I take out a private work group several times a year. 100+ people...60 of which are usually walk ons, who pay $25 to rent and most split a case with someone else...(we'll say $30 extra for the sake of argument)...so $55 a head for 60 people. The other 40 pay a $15 field fee and buy paint...most of which buy at Pevs anyway at $45-50 a case. Grand total, this group puts roughly $6000 into the field and Pevs pocket, most of which is profit. This is a situation where BYOP and FPO works well, brings back both elements of players (rec ball walk-ons and private group players) and no one walks away feeling gouged.

I can't say the same about other FPO fields where I'm constrained to pay higher amounts of money for mediocre (at best) paint, (often) higher field fees and sometimes get substandard play. Call me naive, but I personally believe that BYOP can really work as an asset to the field if they run a good field and sell paint in reasonable prices.

How many of the field owners here have customers that come in with a "set" dollar amount that they intend to spend on paint. If you can lower the price you sell paint for and sell them two cases at a lower dollar amount (profit) instead of one case at a higher dollar amount (profit) would you come out slightly ahead in terms of profit thereby capitalizing on volume of sales? Or does that get to be too messy in terms of ordering paint when you have sales that may fluctuate?
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Old 01-11-2006, 05:39 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZ Air
Fuzzy Duck,

I hear everything you say. Unfortunately, you do not live in the real world. I put on one tourney a year, charge $500 entry and sell 500 cases of paint at $80 each. I must make at least 60K that weekend using your math. If it were that easy, 25% of all fields and stores would not have failed last year. I wish you guys well. I really do. But I will stick with what works for me.
I think you misinterpret my real meaning here. Sure, it's great if you can make a ton of money selling paintball gear and putting on tournaments, that's good for you. But what I'm talking about here is a genuine passion for the game that supercedes money.

The guy I'm talking about grosses maybe $200K a year, but that's not the same thing as net. I'm sure he makes a reasonable living, but he's not really doing it "for the money". And I think it's people who do it for the passion that not only keep the sport alive, but also make it grow.

So yes, I was talking a lot about money, but the real essence of what I'm trying to get across is that the guy makes a good living and gets to do paintball all day, every day. And that's my objective as well.
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Old 01-12-2006, 05:14 PM #27
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To be fair, it's a lot easier to talk about doing something for "the love of the game" rather than to make money, when it isn't your money.
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Old 02-26-2006, 12:37 AM #28
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A local field/store I play at in California has not been getting many people. They are FPO as is one other field/store in town. Paint there is 37 for the cheap stuff. Chronic for 52 +tax, Hellfire 56 +tax.

People keep saying that if the paint is cheap they will come but it dosent seem like that. They sell the cheapest paint in town but people still drive 30 miniutes outside of town to go to other fields. It could be because they are new but Im not sure. If they switched to BYOP it would proably look like an act of desparation but of all those extra people you get at least a few would proably buy paint there.
Any ideas?
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Old 02-26-2006, 07:35 PM #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by end
is location a factor? because im in Ca and all the fields here are byop, the only ones that are fpo are indoor. do your states have trouble attracting players? im just curious and know nothing about running a field and dont plan on running one any time soon.


I work at a field in california, and we started out as FPO, got incredibly low business due to so many BYOP fields in the area, switched to BYOP and had a few free days and started getting a much larger turnout (We switched to BYOP after being open for about 6 months of FPO, have been BYOP for over a year).
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Old 02-26-2006, 09:27 PM #30
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my local field had nights called team nights every wednesday and thursday where it is BYOP, but on those days only they charge only $35 for a case and thats hard to beat, ive never seen non-walmart paint anywhere for $35, so even though its BYOP most people end up buying paint there anyways
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Old 02-27-2006, 04:56 AM #31
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I've noticed FPO is a very regional thing. In S. Cal. the field I went to every other weekend for 6 years was byop and $15 entrance. Needless to say when I moved to CO I was very shocked by the cost of playing and after several bad experiances with over-priced paint that broke just from rattling around in the hopper I made a point of driving from Denver to Co Springs just to play at a byop field.

I'd like to add, thats it's not just tourny players that don't want to spend $90 on a case of paint but regular rec ballers too. If a player sees a case of brand x being sold for $45 at a local proshop and $90 at a FPO field they will feel screwed. Regardless of wether the math supports it or not. If the player feels screwed they will play elsewhere.

Another thing, a lot of players like to play at different fields until they find a regular field that they like. They may play outlaw one month, commercial field A the next month, and then commercial field B the following month. If they can't bring their paint from the last time they played they will most likely play somewhere they can.

While i've only worked in the industry for 3 years (not currently) I've been a player for 15 years and I have to admit I just try to avoid FPO fields at all costs. On the other hand, for events like big games, scenarios, and tournys I don't mind so much as a consumer because I know these are expensive events, and I know that I will get good quality paint because it's a major event.
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Old 02-27-2006, 11:54 AM #32
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the most interesting thing im noticing here is that people will pay 40 bucks for wal mart paint (1500) but gripe up a storm when they come to my field and we charge 45 for field paint (2000)
so on our field it is byop but fpo in rentals
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Old 02-27-2006, 05:04 PM #33
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I strongly support only running BYOP deals once or twice a week. Charge $30 admission and include all day air with that price. You will find that the field is packed. Do your players a favor and glance through peoples' paint when they enter the field to make sure they don't bring in any frozen paint. You should sell some mid-range paint as well on BYOP days for maybe $5-$10 more than it costs you.

If you decide to stay FPO or partially FPO don't charge people $85 a case and then hand them a box of broken brass eagle. If you charge a premium for paint give your customers what you would want to play with. I suggest RPS or Fuel.
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Old 02-27-2006, 05:29 PM #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbfan3068
Do your players a favor and glance through peoples' paint when they enter the field to make sure they don't bring in any frozen paint.
Do you realize how cold paint would need to get to get it to freeze?
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Old 02-27-2006, 05:33 PM #35
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this is a 14 year olds prospective- my old local field went out of bussiness. The reason why was he was to nice, you could get him to go lower on anything you want. he did charge $70 a case for xball and $55 for some other cheap paint

he DID have byop and charged $25 including entry... he would then switch your paint so it was white fill

now that that store/field is outta bussiness there is one field left, and they charge $10 entry and $60 a case (xball bronze)

since i do NOT get handed any of my gear or i don't get money to play, i like the idea of byop, it allows everybody to make off good IF* you charge a good amount to get in. i also realize it is a bussiness and they need to make money, so why not charge $10 for rentals and sell nice paint for more?

like i said, sometimes i am willing to pay $60 a case and know i am shooting good paint

i would rather do that than pay 30 a case and shoot the crapiest paint on earth

this is just my opinion, from the eyes of a 14 year old!
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Old 02-27-2006, 07:13 PM #36
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A lot of people consider $60 a case unbelievable great pricing, especially if it's good paint. Do you even realize that most fields charge in excess of $70 a case for junk? I've been out of Illinois, so don't say "do you know that some people consider $60 a case a rip off."
I have played at Skirmish, Badlandz, Factory PB <--- Great field, Paintball Blitz, and many other places.
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Old 02-27-2006, 10:03 PM #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aodrob
my local field did that and wouldnt let us play for free even though we had their paint so they lost a team that paid about $400+ a month so make sure if you do always think of the long run.
You wanted to play for free and they didn't let you? This is an outrage!

To put it in the perspective of the owner you're spending $400+ a month on paint only, of which maybe half is a mark up. That means that over the course of 4 weeks they're making $200 off of your team. 50 a week, and that may just be eaten up by an extra staff member they need to provide the level of reffing a serious team would demand. When a rec player can come in, pay $20 entry, rent for $20, buy half a case for $30.00, and bring a half dozen friends that do the same your team's $400 a month looks pretty insignificant, especially if you're just going to shoot them up with ease and they will get dicouraged and never come back. A rec player is as happy as a clam behind an $8 barrel (heck, so am I) but you probably wouldn't be satified unless you were behind a $100+ airbag... Sorry if some of this doesn't apply to you, but it applies to most 'tournament' or 'team' players.
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Old 02-28-2006, 08:06 AM #38
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our local fields are not provining this so called quality of service = to the amount being paid. theyare in it for the $. they charge $70-$100 for stingers and still charging $10-30 for entry and air. is the southern wisconsin/ northern illinios area the most expensive area out there or something. the reffs are not cronoing all the players . almost everything is on the honors system. i complained about bad reffing and wiping and they blow me off. But maybe if I slipped the ref a $20, he would call things a little more fair. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardened Sniper
You wanted to play for free and they didn't let you? This is an outrage!

To put it in the perspective of the owner you're spending $400+ a month on paint only, of which maybe half is a mark up. That means that over the course of 4 weeks they're making $200 off of your team. 50 a week, and that may just be eaten up by an extra staff member they need to provide the level of reffing a serious team would demand. When a rec player can come in, pay $20 entry, rent for $20, buy half a case for $30.00, and bring a half dozen friends that do the same your team's $400 a month looks pretty insignificant, especially if you're just going to shoot them up with ease and they will get dicouraged and never come back. A rec player is as happy as a clam behind an $8 barrel (heck, so am I) but you probably wouldn't be satified unless you were behind a $100+ airbag... Sorry if some of this doesn't apply to you, but it applies to most 'tournament' or 'team' players.
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Old 03-01-2006, 06:28 AM #39
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^-- Ive paid 100 bucks for a case of paint I could have gotten at my proshop for 60, and that 60 is after the proshop markup.
A proshop has 2 or 3 guys working.
A field normaly if run right has a big staff and insurance. + way more bills than a pro shop

not a fair comparison
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:04 AM #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZ Air
Don't even consider the snotty nose tourney guys opinions because if they are your target market, you are doomed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EZ Air
Try pushing memberships to repeat customers with a considerable discount for paint purchase. Use a good high end paint and charge for it.
Yes, that's a good idea, but it can fall through in theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EZ Air
Make the church and corporate groups pay big money for paint because they don't know or care what it should cost....they are looking for value on entertainment $$$. If they have fun and spend $80 dollars in 5 hours, don't apologize.
Not to mention that's ILLEGAL, but if they find out, your *** is grass. That's jeopardizing the future of your field if you do this. Why would people want to go to a field where they charge more than it really costs for new players. That's spoken like a true *******, and someone who doesn't care about new generations of players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EZ Air
What an average tourney guy spends at a BYOP field:

$20 entry, $5 air. 1000 rounds of shiznit paint from Walmart $20. cost= $45 for the day to him, $25 profit for you.

Average for FPO field:

$0 entry with membership, $5 air 1000 rounds Inferno or Evil $40. cost to him, $45 with better paint. Profit for you $25 so it is a wash.

But here is the kicker...the church, corporate or birthday guys who are willing and ancious to pay you $15 entry, $10 for rentals $5 for "coveralls" and $90 a case will bring their own or buy your $35 dollar shiznit because that is what you have become.
I pay $20 plus whatever my BYOP paint is, spend around $60-$65 to play. I don't know one tourney player who buys that **** at Wal*Mart. Lower prices for less profit, but you will attract more people. Post ads on your local paintball forum, saying prices have changed and you will get less profit per person, but you will make more in all, because more people will want to visit this field.
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:06 AM #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakeman007
A proshop has 2 or 3 guys working.
A field normaly if run right has a big staff and insurance. + way more bills than a pro shop

not a fair comparison
While comparing a pro-shop to a field as far as total costs go might not be fair, Iím not sure I agree about paint prices.

If the exaggerated paint price is to finance field use, why isnít the added cost in the field fee?

With the exaggerated paint prices, whatís the average paint usage per customer?

IMO, business should treat customers fairly. Everything should be priced to allow the operating to remain profitable catering to the average customer. But, as soon as a customer shows more loyalty to the business, the tables should turn. The business should cut the customer as much slack as possible and drastically reduce the mark-up.

So, I can understand high field fees and the first 500rnds. But once a customer begins to buy cases (and also bought the first expensive bag and field fees), IMO once again, the customer is being gouged when the same field is operating a store where the same paint is available much cheaper.
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:25 AM #42
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Havocide,

I think you have mis-understood my post. We charge "normal price" to church groups and corporate outings. That is $83 plus tax for a case of paint. Pink All Star to be specific. That is where our profit comes from. There is nothing illegal about charging $83, $100, or $1000 for a case of paint if I choose. They can come or not. Their choice. Just so you know, they come, spend money, have a great time and return often.

Next, we seem to be one of the very few to make money in this business. We don't rely on the tourney players and could care less if they ever come back. However, we provide the their own airball field, fully sponsor a local team, have a new players league and sell them all stuff at or near cost. We do that for the kids and enjoy seeing them have fun. However, it is a business and if any individual, team or league effects my bottom line, they are gone! My kids play on NPPL pro teams and we fully understand that aspect of this also.

My comments are for those fields that have very little experience and are looking for direction here. After all, it is a field and store owners forum. I will say it again and stand by my original statement...If your field builds itself around the tourney guys, you will fail. BYOP is a death blow to any future financial success.
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