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Old 09-08-2005, 11:21 AM #22
JxTxCxNx
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I disagree.

MAP should not set retail prices. Higher MAP gives more margin to the high quantity sales deep discounters. That gives them more money to grow.

MAP gives retailers a few dollars more per sales. It doesn't help us.

Retailers have to change their business perspective. The retailers who focus on service will last, those focused on prices will fail.

MAP is protection for the dotcoms from each other, so they can keep profits at high quantity.

What if MAP disappeared? Conjecture:

Widget 69 Marker today: Cost $110. MAP $140. Retailers try to sell it for $140. Internet guy sells thousands. Profit? $140-$110-$7shipping-$1bandwidth-$2warehouse=$20. Retail profit: $140-$110-$5sales time-$10future service = $15.

Now, drop MAP. Dotcom sells it for $125 ($5 profit). Retailer wants to sell it for $155 ($30 profit).

Long term: Initially, more people will buy online. Things break, so they have to ship it to MFG. MFG gets inundated with repairs causing weeks turnaround. Their friend buys local, things break, marker is returned in 3 days. MFG realizes large savings from pro shop and offers them warranty parts. Proshop gives warranty parts away to their customer, but charges MSRP+service to guy who bought online.

--dada
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Old 09-08-2005, 11:24 AM #23
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My disagreement in previous post wasn't to RCX but previous post.

--dada
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Old 09-08-2005, 12:33 PM #24
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service

I have always wondered why manufacturer don't give a better price to locations that agree to service the product. They would have greater end-customer satisfaction and fewer returns. Stores would have an ability to offer the service we truely want to offer.
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Old 09-08-2005, 01:49 PM #25
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Good stuff

There are many good points here. I feel that it isn't one persons fault. The industry is flooded. Supply and demand have caused some of our problems. I feel the real focus should be the customers. People will shop however they want. They may have a bad time on-line and go pro-shop. On the other hand, they may have a trouble with a pro-shop and go on-line. The point is we (pro-shops) should make a effort to educate our customers. Give them the pro's and con's of the "other guy" Let the customer decide the way they shop. I prefer the smart shopper that will come back to me because of my service and knowledge over the bargan hunter.

"I worried so much about the other guy's business, I forgot about my business".

Stay foucsed guys.

Papa
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Old 09-08-2005, 01:49 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTP2
rcxpaintball its people like you that kill the industry, as well a take food from our mouths. And I can imagine you dropship most of your items as well. And have a Real daytime job.

You make me sick. Why bother with your business just give it away. You are the person that will always be an outsider to the industry never wanting more from it. How can we all become one and make higher profits when you and 100 other part time Paintball wanabe stores do this?
Stop whining and treat your shop as if you lived in a 'free market' (you do). If someone else sells something you carry for less, you have a few simple choices. Either match the online guy's price (including shipping), leave your price alone, or stop carrying that item. It's up to you and it's a business decision. You act like your COMPETITORS should act like you're all on the same team...YOU'RE NOT! Get over it...it's just business. If you don't like how it works, either make it work for you or get out!

Guys like dada or Papa (just above) will be sucessful because they worry more about what it takes to make their business work in light of the cometition they face rather than fretting about what their competitors are 'doing' to them.

Last edited by MikeM : 09-08-2005 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 09-08-2005, 02:50 PM #27
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Lobbying manufacturers for letting stores have the repair work (like car dealers) is a key focus of the PB Owners Co-Op I started.

Cost benefit for stores and manufacturers.

--dada
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Old 09-08-2005, 03:15 PM #28
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Store product support would be simple for the manufacturer. A rebate or credit would be given for each warrant card sent to the manufacturer by the store. In effect, the store would be getting a reduced price on the product for supplying service. The card would need to be signed by the customer. This prevents stores with web sites from "gaming" the system. The card would indicate that the store is the primary location for warranty work.
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Old 09-08-2005, 05:03 PM #29
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Or even just the ability to get parts for free when we send back bad ones.

Smart Parts has heralded the way but they're still doing a huge amount of repairs themselves.

Imagine if Ford or Sony or Hoover actually fixed their products directly... Bad for dealers.

--dada
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Old 09-12-2005, 10:16 AM #30
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.....and you bait me all the time with the free macro line....lol..... anyway dada, you always have a ton of good info and like I said, I need to get into your head a little more often..... actually PM when you have some time, I need to speak with you about a few things.....

The way we work it in the computer industry is byt using the "marketing dollars". we can get big accounts at cost, but the manufacturer then rebates us a "marketing cost" and we make the profit. Not sure if it is this way in the PB world.....
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Old 09-12-2005, 11:07 AM #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JxTxCxNx
Imagine if Ford or Sony or Hoover actually fixed their products directly... Bad for dealers.

--dada
Deal with APP [Allen Paintball Products] much?
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Old 09-12-2005, 11:12 AM #32
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I get their flyers but haven't, yet. I've considered it, though.

Good company?
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Old 09-12-2005, 11:22 AM #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JxTxCxNx
I get their flyers but haven't, yet. I've considered it, though.

Good company?
Not really...

They have a system like this:

Retail item 35$

Our cost [wholesale] 1 @ $35, 50 @ $34, 100 @ $33

Not worth the time nor the hassle if you ask me.
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Old 09-12-2005, 11:29 AM #34
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Heh. I never looked into it

Wonder who their wholesale customer base is...

--dada
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Old 09-13-2005, 07:09 AM #35
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Allen Paintball

I have been buying Allen's products for many years. I have bought and sold packs, and soft goods from countless manufacturers, Allen products are in my opinion among the highest quality, well sewn, heavy material. I don't ever recall sending a single item back defective. Though in the early nineties they were wholesale only I believe now they sell at retail also.
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Old 09-13-2005, 07:14 AM #36
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Double check with them

Check again on some of the pricing. A pack that retails at $39.95 costs $25.00 A holster that retails for $12.95 costs $6.00 These are prices at quantity one, they usually start $1.00 off at quantity of 6

QUOTE=rcxpaintball]Not really...

They have a system like this:

Retail item 35$

Our cost [wholesale] 1 @ $35, 50 @ $34, 100 @ $33

Not worth the time nor the hassle if you ask me.[/quote]
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Old 09-13-2005, 12:40 PM #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midstatepaintball
Check again on some of the pricing. A pack that retails at $39.95 costs $25.00 A holster that retails for $12.95 costs $6.00 These are prices at quantity one, they usually start $1.00 off at quantity of 6

QUOTE=rcxpaintball]Not really...

They have a system like this:

Retail item 35$

Our cost [wholesale] 1 @ $35, 50 @ $34, 100 @ $33

Not worth the time nor the hassle if you ask me.
[/quote]

That was an EXAMPLE, I am not going to give out a wholesale price list from them...give me some credit.

What I was implying is the return from their products is rather bad. This is coming from both myself AND both Evan [Money] and Z[Manny Mann] Mills who both work as suppliers. I never said they have bad items, hell I still use SNAPP loaders on occasion, all that I am saying is the return isnt that great.
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Old 09-14-2005, 05:18 PM #38
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without having to directly respond to any one person, I'll just state my view here.

I've seen agreements that are in the true spirit of M.A.P., which actually deals with the advertised price. At some point, a store steps away from advertising a product and actually moves to the sale. Since MAP only deals with advertising, I see no reason you can't sell below MAP... just can't advertise under it. I fail to see how this will hurt the industry... this isn't something that's just hit the internet recently.
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Old 09-14-2005, 05:44 PM #39
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IMO, removing MAP is a good thing. I don't think by removing MAP it's going to kill off all the local shops mainly because owners of both shops and internet stores need to access the cost of operations and need to add those cost ontop of the cost of the item. The cost to run a retail location is going to be higher than an online store, but by removing MAP, the gap between online prices and retail stores should shorten.

I think MAP is bad thing for retail stores because they are forced to advertise it at a certain price. What this means is a customer will go online look at a certain item and access the price. NExt if the customer goes to a shop, the same item is there but advertised at MAP, which could be 25% more than online. This in turn drives away the customer. In reality, the retailer has to advertise it at that price and might be willing to sell it cheaper, but how many of us have picked up an item tagged at a certain amount and ask, so what's are you really going to sell this to me for? Online stores may advertise at MAP, but they offer incentives such as add to cart to see sale price, reatil stores don't really have an oppertunity to offer their best price to buyers.
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Old 09-14-2005, 05:49 PM #40
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I could see where a manufacturer could check MAP prices online to make sure that stores are complying. But are they going to take the effort to check at a brick and mortar store? Even if you advertised cheaper prices in the newspaper or local media add, I would see it hard for a manufacturer to keep track of advertisments throughout the country.

Tan
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Old 09-14-2005, 05:52 PM #41
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Ideas

I have tried to state my idea in other ways. After more thought, allow me to try again.
The reason for MAP pricing is not to make the manufacturer a higher margin, they sell for what they sell for. It enforces a margin that the retailer will make. Why does the manufacturer care? They care because they want the exposure that a retail shop offers, they want the customer to have access to support for their products. With a MAP maintained margin, the hope would be that the walk in retailer would both carry the product, and be able to support it. Without MAP, retailers will not stock some products, retailers will be limited on what kind of support they can provide for a product. Support costs the retailer money.
Why don't we get rid of MAP and replace it with manufacturer discounted incentives.
If an online seller is willing to work a $15 margin, set the wholesale price of a $150 product at $135. Then the manufacture should place a value on having onsite warranty work and a walkin retail pressence for their product. Perhaps this is worth $5 for the retail display and another $15 for providing warranty service; providing a $20 discount off of wholesale for walk in retailers. Want prime display space? Then give me an additional $5 per gun.
Customer wins, they get more service
Manufacturer wins, reasons above
Online wins, they can price however they want to
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