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Old 09-07-2005, 04:20 PM #1
JxTxCxNx
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Death of MAP

Looks like the first paintball sites have started to get around MAP using the "Add to Shopping Cart to see our price" loophole.

www.discountpaintball.com for example (good bunch of guys in person)

What's the opinion on this? When will one of the bigger guys start doing this on Ions and other popular items?

--dada
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Old 09-07-2005, 04:27 PM #2
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it's not really a loop hole. you can sell the product for whatever you want, Minimum ADVERTISED Pricing. telling people what to sell for is illegal.
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Old 09-07-2005, 04:36 PM #3
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I agree. i'm just letting others who RELY on MAP to take notice.

The slide of MAP will come quickly. It'll be an interesting year for many shops.

My prices won't change.

--dada
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Old 09-07-2005, 04:50 PM #4
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good they shouldn't have to. and map was created to help out the traditional market i don't know why map has been made out to be some monster killing everyones business
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Old 09-07-2005, 04:55 PM #5
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I agree. I'm not sure many retailers do but now is the time to make changes in how to better deal with the "it's $20 cheaper online" customer.

I am surprised most sites do it with Tippmann only. Why not do it with higher margin items to better compete with other e-commerce merchants?

--dada
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Old 09-07-2005, 04:56 PM #6
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MAP is a good guideline, to keep the actual stores in business in the wake of work out of the garage internet shops from pitching equipment at near wholesale prices. I think it is a good thing to have.
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Old 09-07-2005, 05:00 PM #7
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Hmm.. Actionvillage is doing this aswell, but only with Tippmans?

Should we take this as a sign of something happening within the Tippman company that would cause everyone to clear out their stock?
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Old 09-07-2005, 05:13 PM #8
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Summit paid a fortune for Tippmann. Maybe they're going to commoditize it? $99 markers, $49 upgrades? [/conjecture]

It IS bizarre that it is Tippmann only. They're my lowest margin product, doesn't make sense.

--dada
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Old 09-07-2005, 05:52 PM #9
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It's not just Tippmann. Other sites sell Angels, Ego's, ICD using various ways to get around MAP - coupons, adding "free items", actual price revealed at checkout, etc. Over the weekend pbgear had 10% off everything including MAP items.
I never understood why anyone would try to get around MAP on an item they were only making $20 on to begin with. Only the big guys could make any money that way. It's not worth the time to process an order to make 5-8%
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Old 09-07-2005, 06:02 PM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shore Paintball
It's not just Tippmann. Other sites sell Angels, Ego's, ICD using various ways to get around MAP - coupons, adding "free items", actual price revealed at checkout, etc. Over the weekend pbgear had 10% off everything including MAP items.
I never understood why anyone would try to get around MAP on an item they were only making $20 on to begin with. Only the big guys could make any money that way. It's not worth the time to process an order to make 5-8%
they aren't getting around map if the price drops when you check out. as long as the price that is ADVERTISED is within the set guidelines then it is ok. if the product sells for less that is the store owners problem.
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Old 09-07-2005, 06:37 PM #11
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Personally I've been doing it for years.

Not only the "add to cart" but "prices to low to list" and "call/email for prices".

It works and quite frankly I feel being able to offer that option brings in more customers to me then if I just price it at the MAP.

All in all until they take me to court or threaten to pull my accounts I will keep [not listing items but] pricing items below MAP....that is if they are worth my time, if its a low return then I keep it at MAP.
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Old 09-07-2005, 08:57 PM #12
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Thanks for your honesty.

I keep getting negative e-mails from people saying I'm nuts to hate MAP. Ever think how much cash PBGear makes on the hundreds/thousands of Ions it sells and never has to support? I'll sell Ions above MAP ($329) and I'd still sell out if MAP was gone.

Guess where I stomp PBGear? Any item under their free shipping amount.

Oh, the Widget is $59 online and we're $69? I'll sell it to you for the Internet price including their shipping. I once sold a $69 (my price) Widget for $59+$24 (customer watched me fill the shopping cart on the site he quoted). Yes, he paid $83 for it as he laughed at his error.

We sell out of pods, swabs, oil, lens cleaner weekly. I have zero small and medium T-shirts in stock since back to school. That's how I forget MAP. I remember my strength.

--dada
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Old 09-07-2005, 09:03 PM #13
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rcxpaintball its people like you that kill the industry, as well a take food from our mouths. And I can imagine you dropship most of your items as well. And have a Real daytime job.

You make me sick. Why bother with your business just give it away. You are the person that will always be an outsider to the industry never wanting more from it. How can we all become one and make higher profits when you and 100 other part time Paintball wanabe stores do this?
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Old 09-07-2005, 09:23 PM #14
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IMO, if you can see the lower price on the web site, it's "advertised". Whether it's disclosing the price when checking out or you include coupons on your site to deduct a certain amount when ordering, it's "advertised".
We use a "call in for best price". At least they have to pick up the phone and call in.
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Old 09-07-2005, 10:32 PM #15
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OTP2: Fortunately when rcx's products break, we can fix them

Also, rcx can't sell hundreds of markers, so his market is small. He may value his time less than I do, hence he should be cheaper.

The $20 someone saves buying from him is $20 more they can spend on my pods, swabs and fills.

Not that I like cheap sellers

--dada
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Old 09-07-2005, 10:40 PM #16
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You have a good point, we all know the cheaper the online store sells it, the worst they are with returns,and with that brings bad taste and maybe less then 10% repeat. And thats where we come in. When they fall in the next year we can say (Told Ya So!)
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Old 09-08-2005, 09:48 AM #17
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OTP2: Exactly!!

My biggest failure was trying to be what I'm not: a deep discounter. My stores don't sell enough quantity to make up the margin we had. Also, we didn't profit enough to service our customers. Mind you, two huge dotcoms are 1/2 hour from my stores, so I considered them competition.

In late Spring, I changed my mind. I realization selling $60,000 in my main store in May wasn't great. Remember, I'm in a town of 6000 with no big cities nearby. $60,000 at 18% is worthless. I figured $30,000 at 50% was better for everyone except the bargain hunters.

Fast forward 6 months. We've lost some "customers" because of our price hikes, but our margin is better, our customers are happier, and our employees like their jobs better because we don't have to argue with anyone over service issues.

It will take me another 6 months to fix the final blemishes. We're changing our website to a clearance site, and dropping 90% of our local sponsorships. We learned a lesson and now I'm focused in setting a better example for other ma and pa stores.

Here's the funny thing. By dropping prices to MAP, I could have had a million dollar store. But at no margin! By raising prices, raising service, and cutting SKUs, I believe we can still meet that goal.

There are 9 million ballers out there. There are 90 million who would try it. The 9 million may never shop from me, but my local portion of the 90 million may.

I was laughing at how my friends who work for dotcoms are always feeling overworked and underpaid. They're selling their wares for little satisfaction. They've got gross sales quotas which don't translate to a sense of a happy customer.

I felt that same burden last year. Now I see smiles at the checkout counter. When someone walks in with a frown, I know I can expect a bargain hunter who will frown every time I see them in the future. If I can't convince them of my pricing and service, I don't mind them walking out empty handed. Yet I do convince about 10%, and they're smiling every time I see them in the future.

--dada
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Old 09-08-2005, 10:10 AM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTP2
rcxpaintball its people like you that kill the industry, as well a take food from our mouths. And I can imagine you dropship most of your items as well. And have a Real daytime job.

You make me sick. Why bother with your business just give it away. You are the person that will always be an outsider to the industry never wanting more from it. How can we all become one and make higher profits when you and 100 other part time Paintball wanabe stores do this?
that is his problem if he wants to make less money. you can sell the gun for the price he could. he is following all of the rules set by the manufacturer. ususally the Map is at least 30% and if companys are not offering that sort of margin then you should not deal with the product that is the way to make some money. Mfgs that do not give the dealer that sort of margin should not be around anymore, those are the companys ruining the industry not the little .comrs
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Old 09-08-2005, 10:50 AM #19
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Yet manufacturers don't offer you your margin, regardless of MAP. Your customer gives hou your margin, based on what you offer them.

--dada
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Old 09-08-2005, 10:54 AM #20
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Originally Posted by crapppyballer
Mfgs that do not give the dealer that sort of margin should not be around anymore, those are the companys ruining the industry not the little .comrs
I'd say it's mainly the distributors fault. How can a small store when they are dependent on a distributor that sells direct to the customers at levels the same or lower than they can purchase for?

Once the distributors started doing it, the manufacturers started. That screws both the distributor and the stores.

The distributors and manufacturers, instead of setting their direct to customer pricing at MSRP/MAP meaning that stores would not be hurt and understanding that this would translate into more sales overall, have decided to try and make higher margins by selling direct AND take over market share.
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Old 09-08-2005, 11:12 AM #21
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Originally Posted by OTP2
rcxpaintball its people like you that kill the industry, as well a take food from our mouths. And I can imagine you dropship most of your items as well. And have a Real daytime job.

You make me sick. Why bother with your business just give it away. You are the person that will always be an outsider to the industry never wanting more from it. How can we all become one and make higher profits when you and 100 other part time Paintball wanabe stores do this?
Yes I kill the indrustry by providing large orders for companys to fill...explain to me how that works again...

Face it there is more then enough business for online stores to share, you don't see me posting ads for my store left and right and you don't see it on any search engines. You want to know why? Because I keep my business personal, I don't step on peoples toes and I do not "edge" in on compitition.

If I showed you my "hit" list for last month [number of hits my site recieved] it would equal about.....yeah about one weeks worth of hits AV or pbgearonline recieves.

Why bother with my business if I am letting "giving it away"? Well ok yes a place like AV might make $200 off of a sale of a marker where I make $100, but guess what happens...the customer likes that he saved money and he comes back! He also tells his friends and they come and see what I can offer and 75% of them buy from me and the cycle continues. I make up for the cuts I take in profit by repeat business. Why do I do it? Simple...

I care more about the player then I do about making a large turn around off of items. More people buy affordable paintball gear....more people play [or play more often] thus generating more business for fields and manufactures and other businesses....yep I sure am killing this indrustry.

FYI- I do not drop ship, I offer the option but I keep a live invintory, I do have a day job running our field and keeping things stocked. For your information I have been around about six years now as a store/field and I am established. Not that any of that matters to you.
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